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Hi Mike,
Quote
I understand that there is much evidence that supports the originality of Matthew 28:19.
I agreeQuote There is also much evidence that those words are spurious. I believe it was Eusebius who claimed that the original had, “Go baptizing in MY name”. You have provided me *no evidence*, I searched the forum which is took some time but sorry I can’t find any evidence.
Please show me your evidence for Eusebius,
Eusebius of Caesarea
“We believe . . . each of these to be and to exist: the Father, truly Father, and the Son, truly Son, and the Holy Ghost, truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth his disciples for the preaching, said, ‘Go teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy” (Letter to the People of His Diocese 3 [A.D. 323]).
Eusebius is very confident in his beliefs to death and anathematizingMike if its *more productive* for you to ask another question that’s fine, I am corresponding with you because I want you to have the correct Jesus, I want you to accept Jesus as true Theo’s from the Father and not an Angel creature.
Eternal generation explains this simply how there can be one true God in nature, being expressed in three persons.
From the Father, who is alone the origin of the entire divinity, he is eternally all powerful and the Son is his testament of this.The Son is magnificent he is beyond beautiful, he is worthy of everything because he is the revelation of the Father.
When you see the Son you see the Father, true Theos from true Theos, worthly of every possible act of true Christian worship. Don’t let any man rob you Mike even the *Watch Tower* use to teach that Jesus was worthy of worship with the Father.We could not even worship Jesus enough if we tried He is worthy of so much more than we could ever give Him.
Here is the proof about the Watch Tower, Quote from jwfacts.com (changed watchtower teachings)
Russell taught that we should worship Jesus and the initial Watchtower Charter's specified that establishment of the Watchtower Society was to promote the worship of Jehovah and Jesus. Yet since the 1950's, worshipping Jesus became regarded as wrongful idolatry.
Russell promoted the worship of Jesus and prayer to him because he is our God.
Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3
“It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. “When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.” Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter–the leading apostle– “he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man.” …. Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship….” Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157
“It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us….Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him.” Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157
Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Jul 15 p.216
“Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man.” Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Jul 15 p.216
Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15
“In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles….They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience.” Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15
Rutherford continued this teaching.
“Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6).” Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.339 Click for scan“During the Millennium, “the princes will lead the people in their worship of Jehovah and of Christ.” Vindication Volume 3 p.295
“The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11).” Salvation p.151
Knorr continued to teach we should worship Jesus and the 1940's Watchtower articles still stated that Jesus was to be worshipped.
“Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy.” Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313
In 1945, Knorr amended the Watchtower's legal Charter. Included within the Charter was the statement that the purpose of the Watchtower Society is to promote the worship of Jehovah and Jesus.The 1945 Yearbook includes the Charter in full. Part of the current charter states as follows:
“The purposes of this Society are: To act as the servant of and the legal world-wide governing agency for that body of Christian persons known as Jehovah's Witnesses to preach the gospel of God's kingdom under Christ Jesus unto all nations as a witness to the name, word and supremacy of Almighty God JEHOVAH; to print and distribute Bibles and to disseminate Bible truths in various languages by means of making and publishing literature containing information and comment explaining Bible truths and prophecy concerning establishment of Jehovah's kingdom under Christ Jesus to authorize and appoint agents, servants, employees, teachers, instructors, evangelists, missionaries and ministers to go forth to all the world publicly and from house to house to prea
ch and teach Bible truths to persons willing to listen by leaving with such persons said literature and by conducting Bible studies thereon to improve men, women and children mentally and morally by Christian missionary work and by charitable and benevolent instruction of the people on the Bible and incidental scientific, historical and literary subjects to establish and maintain private Bible schools and classes for gratuitous instruction of men and women in the Bible, Bible literature and Bible history; to teach, train, prepare and equip men and women as ministers, missionaries, evangelists, preachers, teachers and lecturers to provide and maintain homes, places and buildings for gratuitous housing of such students, lecturers, teachers and minister; to furnish gratuitously to such students, lecturers, teachers, educators and ministers suitable meals and lodging and to prepare, support, maintain and send out to various parts of the world Christian missionaries, teachers and instructors in the Bible and Bible literature and for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus; to arrange for and hold local and world-wide assemblies for such worship to use or operate radio broadcasting stations for preaching this gospel of the kingdom; and to do any and all other lawful things that its Board of Directors shall deem expedient for the purposes stated.” Click for scan.end quote Theres more but you get the point.
And Mike I get on well with the jws I talk to, I admire there desire to do what they think is right, I even had one paint our house we just got built.
Ask your question, I am trying to help you, just as you are trying to help me – so please let me ask you some questions after this.
Life in the Son.
DanielQuote (4Thomas @ April 23 2013,06:49) Quote (terraricca @ April 20 2013,13:46) 4thomas could you show me that verse in the HEBREW VERSION OF THE GOSPEL OF MATHEW
(Mat 28;19 )
Pierre,
So *do* you think the greek version's are corrupt… be careful of people who tell you that the bible isn't preserved and the *true* new testament was *only* written in hebrew.Yes I am aware that there hasn't been an ancient hebrew new testament found but if there ever is – this verse would be in there, there is just to much proof to say otherwise especially from the early church 70 AD onwards, Revelations wasn't even written at that stage as most scholars think it was written in 95 AD with the eariest possible time being 70AD.
The Jesus only movement doesn't like this verse because it reveals clearly that The Father Son and Holy Spirit are three seperate persons – even though they are from the same nature/essence/theos that being from the Father, the origin, the Son is from the Father and the Holy Spirit is from both, Father and Son.
Where the Holy Spirit is there dwells the Father and Son. Pretty simalar to Jesus words when he said don't you know that the I am in the Father and the Father is in me Philip?Grace
4thomasMathew 28;19
to me what it says is this ;
Mt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”BAPTIZING MEANS; IMMERSION,;WHAT ALSO MEAN BEING INTRODUCED INTO NEW KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING AND BY SETTING YOUR WHOLE MIND AND SOUL AND STRENGTH ,YOU ARE NOW EMERGED INTO IT ,(STILL TODAY THEY USE THAT DESCRIPTION ;LIKE ” FRENCH IMMERSION” SCIENCE IMMERSION” ECT
NOW IF YOU READ THOSE VERSES WITH THIS IN MIND YOU WILL SEE IT FIT VERY WELL WITH WHAT CHRIST IS SAYING ALL ALONG HIS MINISTRY,
1)MAKE DISCIPLES
2)IMMERSION THEM WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD MY FATHER ,
3)MAKE THEM KNOW THE SON ,AND WHY HE DID WHAT HE DID ,
4)MAKE THEM KNOW THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH ,THE KNOWLEDGE THAT COMES FROM GOD ALMIGHTY
5)Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
THIS IS THE WAY THAT I UNDERSTAND THOSE SCRIPTURES IN TRUTH
Quote (4Thomas @ April 22 2013,19:27) You have provided me *no evidence*, I searched the forum which is took some time but sorry I can’t find any evidence. Please show me your evidence for Eusebius,
You apparently did not search thoroughly enough, Daniel.
Read the entire (HUGE) opening post of this thread. You'll see a ton of “evidence”, including the words of the Pope himself. You'll also see where Eusebius quoted 28:19 as “in my name” in his writings. (On a side note, the early Catholic church admittedly altered many words Eusebius wrote, so that they would more readily fit into their doctrines. This information came up in a discussion I had with a dude named “Kangaroo Jack” a long time ago. I'm sure it is in one of the “Eusebius” threads on this site, and I could look for it if you'd like.) But either way, Daniel, you are still not hearing me. I keep telling you that EVEN IF Matt 28:19 was legit, it STILL wouldn't prove your claim that God is named “Jesus”.
And since you have NOTHING in scripture to prove that claim, while I can easily post Rev 3:12 to show that Jesus and his God have DIFFERENT names, is there really any need to discuss 28:19 further?
peace,
mikeBTW Daniel,
I'm not a JW, and didn't bother to read any of the material you posted about them. I couldn't care less. My understanding comes from scripture – not from the JWs, and certainly not from any other organization.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2013,13:38) BTW Daniel, I'm not a JW, and didn't bother to read any of the material you posted about them. I couldn't care less. My understanding comes from scripture – not from the JWs, and certainly not from any other organization.
Hi Mike,Didn't you say that you grew up in a “JW” family, or no?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 24 2013,20:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2013,13:38) BTW Daniel, I'm not a JW, and didn't bother to read any of the material you posted about them. I couldn't care less. My understanding comes from scripture – not from the JWs, and certainly not from any other organization.
Hi Mike,Didn't you say that you grew up in a “JW” family, or no?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjwhat as that the do with Mike's comment ,do you have something wicket in your mind that you ask this
the hearth of men leans to wickedness ,and so as to be restrained at times ,
Mike as answered loud and clear ,
Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2013,06:55) do you have something wicket in your mind that you ask this
No, why?Quote (Ed J @ April 25 2013,08:16) Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2013,06:55) do you have something wicket in your mind that you ask this
No, why?
Didn't you say you speak french?Quote (Ed J @ April 25 2013,08:18) Quote (Ed J @ April 25 2013,08:16) Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2013,06:55) do you have something wicket in your mind that you ask this
No, why?
Didn't you say you speak french?
Hi Pierre,“the wicket is one of the two sets of three, stumps and two bails at either end of the pitch.” (Link)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgI agree with T Ed J. When a person resorts to technicalities like you are doing with T's English as a second language predicament, and Mike's upbringing, I think you do that to sway against T's and Mike's clear words here. There was no need for it. It shows what is in your heart though.
My wife's language is Spanish and English is her second language. If someone spoke to her and tried to win a point by putting her language skills down, I would think that was disrespectful. You will always see that though and I see it on Youtube a lot (in the discussion areas). i.e., where a person makes a small mistake but is easy to spot and easy to see the original point, but argues the mistake and not the point. I usually avoid debating such people because I know that they not motivated by truth.
Quote (Ed J @ April 25 2013,04:22) Quote (Ed J @ April 25 2013,08:18) Quote (Ed J @ April 25 2013,08:16) Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2013,06:55) do you have something wicket in your mind that you ask this
No, why?
Didn't you say you speak french?
Hi Pierre,“the wicket is one of the two sets of three, stumps and two bails at either end of the pitch.” (Link)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
it should be wicked not wicket ,but you knew that ,and your respond is showing the fullness of your heart ,Quote (t8 @ April 25 2013,12:17) I agree with T Ed J. When a person resorts to technicalities like you are doing with T's English as a second language predicament, and Mike's upbringing, I think you do that to sway against T's and Mike's clear words here. There was no need for it. It shows what is in your heart though. My wife's language is Spanish and English is her second language. If someone spoke to her and tried to win a point by putting her language skills down, I would think that was disrespectful. You will always see that though and I see it on Youtube a lot (in the discussion areas). i.e., where a person makes a small mistake but is easy to spot and easy to see the original point, but argues the mistake and not the point. I usually avoid debating such people because I know that they not motivated by truth.
Hi T8,1. Clearly you misunderstand. My point was not to discredit Pierre or Mike either. But my questions were merely a matter of disclosure.
Daniel correctly seen the JW influence in Mike's doctrinal beliefs, and Mike neglected to mention that he had been influenced by their doctrines.
My point to Pierre (which you obviously missed) was that Mike openly told us of his family ties to the JW's, so I was NOT disclosing private information!2. The question about French was merely an illustration of this principal to Pierre, because Pierre also had openly told us about French being his native tongue.
3. Sorry that satan was able to cause you to blame me; many underestimate satan, so you are not alone in falling for his deception to blame those who are righteous.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ April 25 2013,12:17) I usually avoid debating such people because I know that they not motivated by truth.
I avoid debating altogether, except of course in the line of defense!Attorneys Bragin and Bragin
Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2013,12:58) it should be wicked not wicket ,but you knew that
So did we all!Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2013,13:38) BTW Daniel, I'm not a JW, and didn't bother to read any of the material you posted about them. I couldn't care less. My understanding comes from scripture – not from the JWs, and certainly not from any other organization.
The give away for people who are influenced by JWs doctrine or who are actually JWs – is if they worship Jesus.It is very clear for this fact alone that you are influenced by the JW's – point and fact is you must be using their translation of the bible (NWT). there use of the word proskuneo is so untruthful its very sad that an organisation intrusted to oversea people who believe in the Father and Son would go to these depths to deny the Son. If only they knew when they saw the Son they saw the Father.
The greek proskuneo which is the highest word for worship is never translated to worship for Jesus..
The watchtower would rather translate the word proskuneo to worship for demons, idols, devil but never for Jesus even though it is used 15 times for him (almost 30% of all uses are used for him).
Its easy to see those who are interested in scripture and the truth in regard to if they worship Jesus.
Their are other words in greek that are used for obeisance.Remember the early church who read the bible in greek seen no difference in the greek word proskuneo when applied to the Father and Son because thats the actual greek word they READ.
4352. proskuneo pros-koo-neh’-o from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):–worship.
And the highest form of Worship is continually kissing ones feet, is greater than songs of praise.
Luke 7:44-46
44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. 45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil.
Jesus, by whom the entire universe and heaven was made by.
Says.THIS WOMEN HAS NOT CEASED KISSING MY FEET SINCE I CAME IN.
If continually kissings someones feet isn't worship what else could one do to trump that
???So you are not a JW now but you still need to let go of your childhood and submit to the scriptures.
I would highly recommend getting a *REAL* bible or learning greek and reading that.Mike, Jesus is revealed *clearly* in scripture as our Great God and saviuor* He is not a false God is he?
????This leaves only one simply possibilty he is true theos, true God.
Eternal generation explains simply how you can have one True God, its all about understanding that the Father is eternally Father and that he is a True Father.
The Son is not a spirit creature like the angels mike, a angel can't come to earth and shed his blood to save all mankind from their sins only God the Son in the flesh can do this.
Worshipping “Jesus” is the most important discission you will even make. ***Don't let any man rob you or confused family member****I speak this because I care, thats why I am here.
T8 do you Worship Jesus?
Life in the Son
DanielDaniel,
First of all, this discussion is not about JW doctrine – it is about what the SCRIPTURES teach, or don't teach.
Secondly, I start 1 Samuel tomorrow in the NET Bible – which was written by 25 TRINITARIAN scholars. (I'm only reading a chapter a day, since there are sometimes 100+ footnotes in a single chapter, and I'm reading all of them as well.) The NET will be the FIFTH version of scripture I've read, after the NWT, NIV (Produced by 100+ TRINITARIAN scholars), CEV (Produced by 50+ TRINITARIAN scholars), and the NASB (Produced by 20+ TRINITARIAN scholars).
My personal favorite for ease of reading is the NIV. I love that translation. And I very rarely quote the NWT on this site, simply because if I do, all of a sudden we are talking about JWs, instead of the issue at hand. (Sort of like what's just happened here, right?)
Yes, there are JWs in my family. I am not one of them. And yes, I agree with many of the JW interpretations of scriptures, but disagree with many others.
In the end, it really doesn't matter if I have been a JW for the last 100 years, Daniel……….. because WE are here discussing the words of SCRIPTURE – not the doctrines of the JWs.
Now I'm going to assume by the fact you focused on this JW thing, instead of the issue we were discussing, that you've come to the conclusion there is no scripture that says God's name is “Jesus”, and that you've acknowledged that Rev 3:14 CLEARLY explains that Jesus and his God have DIFFERENT names.
Now, would you like to move on to this “proskuneo” thing that you've brought up in your last post? Or can I ask you my first question?
Quote (Ed J @ April 24 2013,21:45) My point was not to discredit Pierre or Mike either. But my questions were merely a matter of disclosure.
Daniel correctly seen the JW influence in Mike's doctrinal beliefs, and Mike neglected to mention that he had been influenced by their doctrines.
No Ed,Clearly your point was to direct attention AWAY FROM the SCRIPTURES we WERE discussing, and focus it on the JW organization.
Everything I claim on this site is the way I understand it from SCRIPTURE.
It is true that I've been “influenced” by JW doctrine. It is also true that I've been influenced by Trinitarians, the non-preexisters, those who believe they can use numerology to their advantage, those who believe the AKJV is the ONLY true translation of the scriptures, those who believe we have TWO Almighty Gods, those who believe Satan was really God's firstborn Son, and those who believe the Son actually IS the Father……. among MANY others. I have been influenced by all five of the translations I've read, and the many commentaries – most of them by TRINITARIANS.
So what exactly does ANY OF THAT have to do with the things I've posted, Ed? If there is something I post that is not aligned with the SCRIPTURES as a whole, then feel free to bring that up to me. Show me the SCRIPTURES that prove my understanding to be flawed.
But this crap you just pulled is below you. Look at how we were in an in depth discussion about SCRIPTURE, but now we're talking about JWs. You do the same stupid crap to David all the time here. He can't even say two words about anything at all without your big mouth trying to sway the discussion to JWs. It's like, in your mind you think calling someone a JW will automatically make everyone else say, “OH! He's a JW? Heck, he MUST be wrong then!” What a petty little mindset that is, Ed. You should be ashamed of yourself for even butting into our discussion with that biased crap. Shame on you!
Hi Mike,
I don't feel it's a crime to disclose one's affiliation.
But sorry about detouring your discussion.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 26 2013,14:33) Hi Mike, I don't feel it's a crime to disclose one's affiliation.
But sorry about detouring your discussion.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
That would be comparable to you saying to someone: “Ed doesn't believe in the rapture.”
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