Where is God exactly

Participant

Hi mike,

thanks for your patience.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same name.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

We can baptize in the name of Jesus because it is the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. This is explicit “God breathed scripture”

I could show you many other places where Jesus says he comes in the father name or where people say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord but – If John 17:11 isn’t clear nothing else will be…

Holy Father protect them by the power of your name

The name you gave me

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit–the Father will send Him in My name–will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (Complete Jewish Bible)
6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo'etz El Gibbor Avi-'Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],

Is Jesus called the Father of Eternity???

Also notice also that a child is born (son is born) AND then it says a son is given
Did you also notice the name Counselor which is referred to the Holy Spirit.
Or do you not believe in the Holy Spirit because you cannot see him???

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

1: Every human will be given a new name who conquers
2: It will a name that no one knows except themselves
3: Revelations explains that Jesus has a new name that no one knows except him
4: I think this name will be related to him being the conquer of death hell and every falsehood once and for all. My guess is he will be called he will be called the Conquer of conquers or something like that… Will we know? I am not sure because revelations doesn’t tell us.
5: Will this new name mean Jesus will no longer be called Jesus, no way scripture never teaches that Jesus will stop being called Jesus… Jesus has been given many new names since he took flesh, some people believe they are in the hundreds.
6: Importantly do you notice that when people talk to Jesus they call him Jesus Christ
7: As you know mike, Chris isn’t Jesus last name it’s his role as a man, when the word became flesh.
8: Jesus will always be the messiah but when he comes again in his father glory as conquer perhaps there maybe a better name to suit him coming back to judge and wage war?

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

So I don’t know the new name but it will be something extreme and can’t imagine him being called Jesus Messiah here when he is in battle dipping with blood. As a human like all other humans who overcome he will recieve a new name
I think it will be more like Jesus conquer than jesus Messiah

But for me to say he will longer be call the messiah is unreasonable likewise it is unreasonable to say Jesus Christ will no longer be called Jesus.
Let gets back to the foundation of what Jesus is Mike, this is more important as we are told clearly we will die in your sins if we have the wrong Jesus. Unless you believe I am he you will die in your sins.

Probably the other key issue is those who don't believe the scriptures when Jesus accepts worship. I'm sure you have looked at the greek here to mike, do you follow the JWs with this too?

April 15, 2013 at 1:44 am#341866

Participant

4thomas

I can read in scriptures that God,and the son and all who are with them uses the same truth but the holy spirit his of God and the truth originate from God ,and so all do not share the same name but share with the father the truth that comes from him

April 15, 2013 at 11:30 pm#341906

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2013,16:07)

There is nothing that states:

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

Something must separate the BEING of God from His creations

He is instead speaking of created beings and applying it to God, who is not created.

Common sense states it, Kerwin. Is everything in existence the being of God? YES or NO?

If not, then what separates the creation from the Creator? (Please ANSWER the question this time, okay?)

As for your “size” crap, I have no idea what you are talking about, and it is clear that you don't either.

April 16, 2013 at 1:40 am#341914

Blocked

Hi Daniel,

You STILL didn't address Rev 3:12, where it is CLEAR that Jesus has a DIFFERENT name than the one he calls “my God”. That is one point in my favor so far.

This one time, I'm going to BRIEFLY address all of the points you made. From now on though, only bring up ONE point per post, okay? (Otherwise, BOTH of us will end up lost in novels that the other guy wrote. Trust me, one point at a time will work much better for both of us. I think you'll agree after wading through this huge response. )

Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2013,19:37)

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same name.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

1. This verse is said by many to be spurious – not original. There are two or three threads on this site that argue this claim both ways. Check them out if you want. I know one of them is called “Matthew 28:19”.

2. The word “name” doesn't necessarily refer to a personal NAME. From Dictionary.com: a distinguished, famous, or great reputation: to make a name for oneself

3. And finally:
Luke 9:26 NET ©
For whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he comes in his glory and in the glory 3 of the Father and of the holy angels.

Footnote #3 says:
Greek: “in the glory of him and of the Father and of the holy angels.”

“Glory” is repeated here in the translation for clarity and smoothness because the literal phrase is unacceptably awkward in contemporary English.

Daniel, surely you realize that the Father doesn't have the same glory as the holy angels, right? Yet the word “glory” is singular in that verse.

So common sense tells us that it MEANS, “the glory of him, [the glory] of the Father, and [the glory] of the holy angels”, right?

Similarly, your verse doesn't teach that all three have the same name. It MEANS, “in the name of the Father, and [the name] of the Son, and [the name] of the Holy Spirit.

Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2013,19:37)

I could show you many other places where Jesus says he comes in the father name or where people say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord……….

Great! Post all of those scriptures, and add them as points for my side. If one comes in the name OF someone else, it is clear that he did not come in his own name.

Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2013,19:37)

I still believe the context dictates that Jesus is talking about the MEN that God gave him – not a name. In verse 6, Jesus twice mentions the people whom were given to him by God. In verse 9, he again mentions ““those you have given me”.

There are MANY good translations that have “those” or “them” which you have given me, including the KJV, NKJV, NASB, NRSV, BBE, NLT and MSG. You have told me the OLDER mss have “that”, and not “them”. Can you show me your source for that information? Because I don't understand how these relatively new translations are still using “them”, if the oldest and best mss have “that”. Perhaps they are looking at the same context I've just outlined for you, and translating accordingly? Perhaps these Greek scholars know something more about the uses of the word “that” than we know? Something seems to be amiss.

At any rate, if God's name was YHWH in the OT, then the name He would have given to Jesus would have been YHWH – since your interpretation says the Father gave Jesus His own name.

Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2013,19:37)

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit–the Father will send Him in My name–will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.

And? Doesn't this tell you that the Father's name is something DIFFERENT than “my name”? (Otherwise Jesus would have said “OUR” name, right?)

Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2013,19:37)

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

From the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars of NETNotes:
This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the “Son” is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the “Father.”) Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of “father” see Isa 22:21 and Job 29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of “father” is not limited to the Bible.

Elisha called Elijah “my father” in scripture. And King Joash called Elisha “my father” in scripture. And Job said he had been a “father” to the poor. Etc, etc, etc.

Surely you don't believe the Son IS the Father, right? So that verse wouldn't work for you anyway. It means that Jesus will be our “everlasting protector”. It does not mean the Son is the Father. Agreed?

Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2013,19:37)

Did you also notice the name Counselor which is referred to the Holy Spirit.

So you think the Holy Spirit was the “child” who was given? The Father now has TWO Sons? I don't get where you're going with this.

Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2013,19:37)

Let gets back to the foundation of what Jesus is Mike, this is more important as we are told clearly we will die in your sins if we have the wrong Jesus.
Unless you believe I am he you will die in your sins.

Okay. I already have a thread on that very statement Jesus made. Read the first post here to see exactly who Jesus DID say he was.

Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2013,19:37)

Probably the other key issue is those who don't believe the scriptures when Jesus accepts worship. I'm sure you have looked at the greek here to mike, do you follow the JWs with this too?

Yes Daniel. I believe the JW's have translated it correctly, as “did obeisance”. You can read through the “Who should we worship” thread, or you and I can discuss this amongst ourselves from the beginning.

Daniel, this is important:
You can pick any ONE of your points that I've responded to, and post about that ONE point in your next post to me. I WILL NOT respond to many different points in the same thread again. If you post a lot of stuff, I will “cherry pick” the point that I WANT to address, and address ONLY that one point. So if you want to be sure I'm not avoiding the “hard ones”, or whatever, make sure you post your “hard ones” ONE AT A TIME. (And I don't mean seven or eight different posts all at once – each with their own claim. I mean we will discuss only one CLAIM until it has been resolved………. and THEN move on to the next claim.)

Also, this has to be a give and take relationship. So far, I've been addressing YOUR issues. We need to take turns. Right now, YOU brought up the point that God's name is “Jesus”. I have solidly refuted that with Rev 3:12. You, on the other hand, have not even sufficiently addressed the fact that Jesus and his God have DIFFERENT names in Rev 3:12. I appreciate the fact that you've brought up other scriptures to support your claim. And I will assume that you appreciate the fact that I've solidly addressed each of them in this post.

In the future though, bring up just ONE support scripture at a time. I will happily address that ONE scripture – and then you can move on to your next support scripture.

Remember that it was YOUR point that Jesus and his God have the same name. So when we are done with this one point, it is MY turn to hit YOU with something.

THEN we can move on to these other issues you are asking about, like worship and John 8:24-25, etc.

Deal?

peace and love,
mike

April 16, 2013 at 5:08 am#341940

kerwin

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2013,06:11)

Quote (kerwin @ April 15 2013,04:07)

Quote (terraricca @ April 14 2013,20:45)

Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2013,12:49)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2013,08:33)

Ditto what Pierre said.

Kerwin, “love” isn't a BEING. God IS a being. Something must separate the BEING of God from His creations. What is that “something”? I say it's a body.

You can disagree if you like, but you'll never be able to prove me wrong with philosophy.

Mike,

You are thinking of God as a creation. He is not just any being, he is the one that existed before all of creation. Love is a spirit as is God. God put in place the laws of created existence.

You got it all wrong ,it make no sens what you are saying and saying that Mike ans I ever said this is a lie ,

You say things without words. There is only one being who existed before creation. There is nothing that states:

Quote

Something must separate the BEING of God from His creations

He is instead speaking of created beings and applying it to God, who is not created. A being that was when the characteristic of size was not yet created.

Size in not an applicable characteristic just like it is not an applicable characteristic of love.

it seems with what you are saying ,that God is a non existing being ,is this correct

That sounds like an absurd accusation to me. I believe T8 has some insight in the matter.

We are simply used to the characteristics of the created being evidence of being because we know them better than we do God and we judge by the laws of space God put in place.

I use love to symbolize God's being because created being are so much different.

April 16, 2013 at 8:04 am#341942

abe

Participant

Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2013,17:37)

Hi mike,

thanks for your patience.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same name.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

We can baptize in the name of Jesus because it is the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. This is explicit “God breathed scripture”

Holy Father protect them by the power of your name

The name you gave me

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit–the Father will send Him in My name–will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Is Jesus called the Father of Eternity???

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Probably the other key issue is those who don't believe the scriptures when Jesus accepts worship. I'm sure you have looked at the greek here to mike, do you follow the JWs with this too?

Hi 4Thomas,

(Quote)
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit–the Father will send Him in My name –will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.

Acts3:25 “It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.' 26″For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one [of you] from your wicked ways.”

Rom.8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does NOT have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

he does NOT belong to Him?

he does not BELONG to Him?

Spirit of Christ

(Quote)
Did you also notice the name Counselor which is referred to the Holy Spirit.

Peace brother…….

April 16, 2013 at 7:43 pm#341975

abe

Participant

Quote (t8 @ April 14 2013,15:46)

Did God create himself? If not, then he should be different to that which he created.

Hi T8,

Col.1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

image of the invisible God

Peace brother.

April 17, 2013 at 12:49 am#341993

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 16 2013,11:08)

Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2013,06:11)

Quote (kerwin @ April 15 2013,04:07)

Quote (terraricca @ April 14 2013,20:45)

Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2013,12:49)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2013,08:33)

Ditto what Pierre said.

Kerwin, “love” isn't a BEING. God IS a being. Something must separate the BEING of God from His creations. What is that “something”? I say it's a body.

You can disagree if you like, but you'll never be able to prove me wrong with philosophy.

Mike,

You are thinking of God as a creation. He is not just any being, he is the one that existed before all of creation. Love is a spirit as is God. God put in place the laws of created existence.

You got it all wrong ,it make no sens what you are saying and saying that Mike ans I ever said this is a lie ,

You say things without words. There is only one being who existed before creation. There is nothing that states:

Quote

Something must separate the BEING of God from His creations

He is instead speaking of created beings and applying it to God, who is not created. A being that was when the characteristic of size was not yet created.

Size in not an applicable characteristic just like it is not an applicable characteristic of love.

it seems with what you are saying ,that God is a non existing being ,is this correct

That sounds like an absurd accusation to me. I believe T8 has some insight in the matter.

We are simply used to the characteristics of the created being evidence of being because we know them better than we do God and we judge by the laws of space God put in place.

I use love to symbolize God's being because created being are so much different.

Quote

We are simply used to the characteristics of the created being evidence of being because we know them better than we do God and we judge by the laws of space God put in place.

do you ever got around blind people

April 17, 2013 at 12:50 am#341994

Participant

Quote (abe @ April 17 2013,01:43)

Quote (t8 @ April 14 2013,15:46)

Did God create himself? If not, then he should be different to that which he created.

Hi T8,

Col.1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

image of the invisible God

Peace brother.

abe

how that verse you quote respond to what T8 is saying

April 17, 2013 at 1:44 am#342005

Participant

Mike, where have you solidly refuted these scriptures

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

We can baptize in the name of Jesus because it is the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. This is explicit “God breathed scripture”

Holy Father protect them by the power of your name
The name you gave me

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one

As for quoting someone who believes in the trinity from bible net, as being your solid grounds for not believe all the translation by the armies of bible scholars??? Have I missed something???

Check out the complete jewish bible

Isaiah 9:6-7 (Complete Jewish Bible)
6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo'etz El Gibbor Avi-'Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],

How about all these translations mike???
Where does it teach what you believe or are they all wrong?

New International Version (©2011)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
New Living Translation (©2007)
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

International Standard Version (©2012)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

NET Bible (©2006)
For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. He shoulders responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
A child will be born for us. A son will be given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

American King James Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

American Standard Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

Darby Bible Translation
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty ùGod, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

English Revised Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Webster's Bible Translation
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

World English Bible
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Young's Literal Translation
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Everlasting Father or Father of Eternity etc etc nothing about a king mike

Will reply to your other comment s when i have time.

Daniel

April 17, 2013 at 6:26 am#342026

kerwin

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ April 17 2013,06:49)

Quote (kerwin @ April 16 2013,11:08)

Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2013,06:11)

Quote (kerwin @ April 15 2013,04:07)

Quote (terraricca @ April 14 2013,20:45)

Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2013,12:49)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2013,08:33)

Ditto what Pierre said.

Kerwin, “love” isn't a BEING. God IS a being. Something must separate the BEING of God from His creations. What is that “something”? I say it's a body.

You can disagree if you like, but you'll never be able to prove me wrong with philosophy.

Mike,

You are thinking of God as a creation. He is not just any being, he is the one that existed before all of creation. Love is a spirit as is God. God put in place the laws of created existence.

You got it all wrong ,it make no sens what you are saying and saying that Mike ans I ever said this is a lie ,

You say things without words. There is only one being who existed before creation. There is nothing that states:

Quote

Something must separate the BEING of God from His creations

He is instead speaking of created beings and applying it to God, who is not created. A being that was when the characteristic of size was not yet created.

Size in not an applicable characteristic just like it is not an applicable characteristic of love.

it seems with what you are saying ,that God is a non existing being ,is this correct

That sounds like an absurd accusation to me. I believe T8 has some insight in the matter.

We are simply used to the characteristics of the created being evidence of being because we know them better than we do God and we judge by the laws of space God put in place.

I use love to symbolize God's being because created being are so much different.

Quote

We are simply used to the characteristics of the created being evidence of being because we know them better than we do God and we judge by the laws of space God put in place.

do you ever got around blind people

Not those that are bodily blind.

April 17, 2013 at 6:36 am#342028

kerwin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 16 2013,05:30)

Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2013,16:07)

There is nothing that states:

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

Something must separate the BEING of God from His creations

He is instead speaking of created beings and applying it to God, who is not created.

Common sense states it, Kerwin. Is everything in existence the being of God? YES or NO?

If not, then what separates the creation from the Creator? (Please ANSWER the question this time, okay?)

As for your “size” crap, I have no idea what you are talking about, and it is clear that you don't either.

Mike,

I am seeing that you find it seemingly impossible to conceive of an existence that was before God created the multidimensional space-time continuum.

I answer your question but you cannot understand the answer. Perhaps another can interpret.

April 17, 2013 at 6:37 am#342029

Participant

Hi Mike,
It must be obvious that the weight of proof is heavy against your Interpretation. I will answer your other comments especially the important one you have about adressing one point at a time.
One thing I need to quickly answer no I don't think the Holy Spirit is another Son. The Holy Spirit is the expressed image of the relationship between the Father and the Son.
Very Basic and we can look at this in more detail when we get of this subject if you want?
The Father =Adam
The Son = Eve (but a Son ofcourse)
The Holy Spirit = The Love that adam and eve share together, that why intercourse is so special it creates a third person in the one flesh of Adam and eve.

Eve came from the rib just as Son the Son is revealed from comming from the bossom of the Father.

The Son is the Word of the Father and the Holy Spirit is the breath of the Father. They are both expressed but you can't express the word without breath just as you can't speak or sing without breath, try it and you will see.

New International Version (©2011)
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, you have given me your name; now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name that You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are one.

International Standard Version (©2012)
I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by your Name, the Name that you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.

NET Bible (©2006)
I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“From now on, I do not dwell in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to join you. Holy Father, keep them in your Name- that Name which you have given me, so that they shall be one, just as we are.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I won't be in the world much longer, but they are in the world, and I'm coming back to you. Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave me, so that their unity may be like ours.
The king James and Webster's Bible Translation are the only translations that are different to the all the other translations
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to you. Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given me, that they may be one, as we are.

American Standard Version
And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are .

Douay-Rheims Bible
And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are.

Darby Bible Translation
And I am no longer in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we.

English Revised Version
And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

Weymouth New Testament
I am now no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to Thee. “Holy Father, keep them true to Thy name–the name which Thou hast given me to bear–that they may be one, even as we are.

World English Bible
I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

April 18, 2013 at 12:58 am#342080

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ April 16 2013,19:44)

Mike, where have you solidly refuted these scriptures

Hi Daniel,

Did you even read my post?

Let me summarize for you:

1. Matthew 28:19 is thought to be spurious – added in by a scribe at a later time. No one ever baptized using that formula in the scriptures. Nor can anyone in their right mind assume Jesus was saying that the name of the Father, Son, AND Holy Spirit was “Jesus”.

Secondly, I showed you a scripture where Jesus said he would come in the “glory of him, and of the Father, and of the holy angels”. Question: Do you think the holy angels and the Father have the same glory? YES or NO?

If not, then the wording of my scripture shows that the singular word “glory” doesn't mean all three entities mentioned have the SAME EXACT glory, right? And since that is the case, Matthew 28:19 doesn't mean the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have the SAME EXACT name either, does it?

End of “proof text”. (Daniel, proof texts must CLEARLY prove something. They can't be ambiguous.)

2. As for the “name you gave me” part, you can show a million translations that render it the way you prefer. But the fact of the matter is that there are OTHER good translations that render it according to the CONTEXT of the passage, which was Jesus talking about THOSE God gave him. (In fact, you inadvertently printed two of those translations in your long list. You even bolded the words of one of them. )

Now listen carefully Daniel, even in YOUR preferred translation, it speaks of God giving Jesus HIS name, right? That would mean JESUS' name is YHWH – not the other way around.

3. You bring up Isaiah 9:6 as proof of WHAT? Do you believe the Son IS the Father? YES or NO? If not, then why bring it up? I already showed you SCRIPTURES that list people METAPHORICALLY as “fathers” – such as Job being a “father” to the poor. In the Hebrew culture, the word “father” often times referred to a “protector”. And I agree that Jesus is our “everlasting protector”. I also agree that he is a mighty god. So I guess I'm not seeing your point.

Daniel, right now you are supposed to be ACCEPTING the fact that Revelation 3:12 makes is CLEAR (not ambiguous) that Jesus and his God have DIFFERENT names. When do you think you'll get around to ACCEPTING this scriptural FACT? Because the sooner you do, the sooner I can ask MY first question of you.

peace,
mike

April 18, 2013 at 1:02 am#342081

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ April 17 2013,00:36)

Mike,

I am seeing that you find it seemingly impossible to conceive of an existence that was before God created the multidimensional space-time continuum.

Kerwin,

None of us knows the least little thing about the state of things before God began creating. So why do you think you can TEACH us about this subject?

Here is my question to you (once again):

What separates the being of God from the creation of God?

April 18, 2013 at 1:22 am#342086

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 17 2013,12:26)

Quote (terraricca @ April 17 2013,06:49)

Quote (kerwin @ April 16 2013,11:08)

Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2013,06:11)

Quote (kerwin @ April 15 2013,04:07)

Quote (terraricca @ April 14 2013,20:45)

Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2013,12:49)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2013,08:33)

Ditto what Pierre said.

Kerwin, “love” isn't a BEING. God IS a being. Something must separate the BEING of God from His creations. What is that “something”? I say it's a body.

You can disagree if you like, but you'll never be able to prove me wrong with philosophy.

Mike,

You are thinking of God as a creation. He is not just any being, he is the one that existed before all of creation. Love is a spirit as is God. God put in place the laws of created existence.

You got it all wrong ,it make no sens what you are saying and saying that Mike ans I ever said this is a lie ,

You say things without words. There is only one being who existed before creation. There is nothing that states:

Quote

Something must separate the BEING of God from His creations

He is instead speaking of created beings and applying it to God, who is not created. A being that was when the characteristic of size was not yet created.

Size in not an applicable characteristic just like it is not an applicable characteristic of love.

it seems with what you are saying ,that God is a non existing being ,is this correct

That sounds like an absurd accusation to me. I believe T8 has some insight in the matter.

We are simply used to the characteristics of the created being evidence of being because we know them better than we do God and we judge by the laws of space God put in place.

I use love to symbolize God's being because created being are so much different.

Quote

We are simply used to the characteristics of the created being evidence of being because we know them better than we do God and we judge by the laws of space God put in place.

do you ever got around blind people

Not those that are bodily blind.

you should some of them are seeing better than the ones with eyes

April 18, 2013 at 11:54 am#342140

Participant

Quote

Secondly, I showed you a scripture where Jesus said he would come in the “glory of him, and of the Father, and of the holy angels”. Question: Do you think the holy angels and the Father have the same glory? YES or NO?

Hi mike,
Yes I read you post,

The Didache

“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Tatian the Syrian

“Then said Jesus unto them, ‘I have been given all authority in heaven and earth; and as my Father has sent me, so I also send you. Go now into all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto the end of the world’ [Matt. 28:18-20]” (The Diatesseron 55 [A.D. 170]).

Hippolytus

“When the one being baptized goes down into the water, the one baptizing him shall put his hand on him and speak thus: ‘Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty?’ And he that is being baptized shall say: ‘I believe.’ Then, having his hand imposed upon the head of the one to be baptized, he shall baptize him once. Then he shall say: ‘Do you believe in Christ Jesus . . . ?’ And when he says: ‘I believe,’ he is baptized again. Again shall he say: ‘Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and the holy Church and the resurrection of the flesh?’ The one being baptized then says: ‘I believe.’ And so he is baptized a third time” (The Apostolic Tradition 21 [A.D. 215]).

Tertullian

“After his resurrection he promises in a pledge to his disciples that he will send them the promise of his Father; and lastly, he commands them to baptize into the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, not into a unipersonal God. And indeed it is not once only, but three times, that we are immersed into the three persons, at each several mention of their names” (Against Praxeas 26 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

“The Lord himself told his disciples that they should baptize all peoples in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit . . . for indeed, legitimate baptism is had only in the name of the Trinity” (Commentary on Romans 5:8 [A.D. 248]).

The Acts of Xantippe and Polyxena

“Then Probus . . . leapt into the water, saying, ‘Jesus Christ, Son of God, and everlasting God, let all my sins be taken away by this water.’ And Paul said, ‘We baptize thee in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost.’ After this he made him to receive the Eucharist of Christ” (Acts of Xantippe and Polyxena 21 [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian of Carthage

“He [Jesus] commanded them to baptize the Gentiles in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. How then do some say that though a Gentile be baptized . . . never mind how or of whom, so long as it be done in the name of Jesus Christ, the remission of sins can follow—when Christ himself commands the nations to be baptized in the full and united Trinity?” (Letters 73:18 [A.D. 253]).

Eusebius of Caesarea

“We believe . . . each of these to be and to exist: the Father, truly Father, and the Son, truly Son, and the Holy Ghost, truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth his disciples for the preaching, said, ‘Go teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy” (Letter to the People of His Diocese 3 [A.D. 323]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“You were led by the hand to the holy pool of divine baptism, as Christ was carried from the cross to this sepulcher here before us [the tomb of Jesus at Jerusalem]. And each of you was asked if he believed in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. And you confessed that saving confession, and descended three times into the water, and again ascended, and in this there was suggested by a symbol the three days of Christ’s burial” (Catechetical Lectures 20:4 [A.D. 350]).

Athanasius

“And the whole faith is summed up, and secured in this, that a Trinity should ever be preserved, as we read in the Gospel, ‘Go ye and baptize all the nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost’ (Matt. 28:19). And entire and perfect is the number of the Trinity (On the Councils of Arminum and Seleucia 2:28 [A.D. 361]).

Basil the Great

“The Holy Spirit, too, is numbered with the Father and the Son, because he is above creation, and is ranked as we are taught by the words of the Lord in the Gospel, ‘Go and baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.’ He who, on the contrary, places the Spirit before the Son, or alleges him to be older than the Father, resists the ordinance of God, and is a stranger to the sound faith, since he fails to preserve the form of doxology which he has received, but adopts some newfangled device in order to be pleasing to men” (Letters 52:4 [A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan

“Moreover, Christ himself says: ‘I and the Father are one.’ ‘One,’ said he, that there be no separation of power and nature; but again, ‘We are,’ that you may recognize Father and Son, forasmuch as the perfect Father is believed to have begotten the perfect Son, and the Father and the Son are one, not by confusion of person, but by unity of nature. We say, then, that there is one God, not two or three gods” (The Faith 1:1[9–10] [A.D. 379]).

Gregory of Nazianz

“But not yet perhaps is there formed upon your soul any writing good or bad; and you want to be written upon today. . . . I will baptize you and make you a disciple in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; and these three have one common name, the Godhead. And you shall know, both by appearances and by words that you reject all ungodliness, and are united to all the Godhead” (Orations 40:45 [A.D. 380]).

Jerome

“eeing that a man, baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, becomes a temple of the Lord, and that while the old abode is destroyed a new shrine is built for the Trinity, how can you say that sins can be remitted among the Arians without the coming of the Holy Ghost? How is a soul purged from its former stains which has not the Holy Ghost?” (Dialogue Against the Luciferia
ns 6 [A.D. 382]).

Gregory of Nyssa

“And we, in receiving baptism . . . conceal ourselves in [the water] as the Savior did in the earth: and by doing this thrice we represent for ourselves that grace of the resurrection which was wrought in three days. And this we do, not receiving the sacrament in silence, but while there are spoken over us the names of the three sacred persons on whom we believed, in whom we also hope, from whom comes to us both the fact of our present and the fact of our future existence” (Sermon For the Day of Lights [A.D. 383]).

Augustine

“Baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost has Christ for its authority, not any man, whoever he may be; and Christ is the truth, not any man” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24 [57] [A.D. 400]).

“O Lord our God, we believe in you, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. For the truth would not say, ‘Go, baptize all nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,’ unless you were a Trinity” (The Trinity 15:28[51] [A.D. 408]).

Why is it in all the bible translations except the watch towers??? I wonder…

New International Version (©2011)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
New Living Translation (©2007)
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

International Standard Version (©2012)
Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

NET Bible (©2006)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“Therefore go disciple all the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father and The Son and The Spirit of Holiness.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:

American King James Version
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

American Standard Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

English Revised Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost:

Webster's Bible Translation
Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations; baptize them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

World English Bible
Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Young's Literal Translation
having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them — to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

As for your proof verse… is this the best you have? Mike i'm amazed, it can be used against for proof text that you used to try and teach me that you believe Jesus is an angel… Ofcourse the angels don't have the same glory as the Father just as Jesus isn't an creature angel like Michael.

Do you understand that the proof is heavy against you for point 1 yet… YES or NO

If no please show me the early church and the bible translations to support any proof you have.

then please compare the weight of evidence

then we will move onto point 2

Grace in Jesus name, the name above every name in heaven and earth, in this world and the world to come.

Daniel

April 20, 2013 at 2:46 am#342341

Participant

4thomas

could you show me that verse in the HEBREW VERSION OF THE GOSPEL OF MATHEW (Mat 28;19 )

April 20, 2013 at 5:13 am#342365

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ April 18 2013,05:54)

Do you understand that the proof is heavy against you for point 1 yet… YES or NO

I understand that there is much evidence that supports the originality of Matthew 28:19. There is also much evidence that those words are spurious. I believe it was Eusebius who claimed that the original had, “Go baptizing in MY name”. But like I said before, there are MANY threads about Matt 28:19 on this site. Some of those threads even have all the stuff you just posted here……… along with numerous accounts from various others who say the verse was altered. (One of those was a Pope from early on.)

I personally believe Jesus told them to baptize in his name, and the verse was later altered. Why? Because nobody in the entire NT ever baptized with the “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” formula. Now YOU have concluded that this is because all these people just secretly KNEW that by baptizing in the name of Jesus, they were really baptizing in the name of all three – because all three are named “Jesus”. But that is a really weak assumption on your part. Are we to believe that every Tom, Dick, and Harry who baptized in the first century was privy to this secret information, yet not one of them ever decided to let the rest of the world know it?

Besides, like I keep telling you, Rev 3:12 PROVES that your theory CAN'T BE right, because it is clear from that verse that Jesus and his God have DIFFERENT names.

But…………… are you ready for this……………… IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER ANYWAY, Daniel. Because even if 28:19 was legit, it STILL doesn't mean that Jesus was saying they all had the SAME name. One could easily understand it to say, “the name of the Father, and [the name] of the Son, and [the name] of the Holy Spirit” – adding up to THREE names, not ONE. Just like the verse I showed you refers to THREE different glories – even though it says, “the glory of him, and of God, and of the holy angels”.

We know from other scriptures that God has a DIFFERENT glory than that of the holy angels – so we know that verse is speaking about THREE different glories – despite the way it's worded. Likewise, since Rev 3:12 clearly teaches that Jesus and his God have DIFFERENT names, we know that Matt 28:19 – if it is in fact legit – is also about THREE names, not ONE.

So Daniel, whether or not 28:19 is legit, it does not prove your claim that God is named “Jesus”.

Ready for my first question? Or shall we finish up points 2 and 3 from the last post first?

April 23, 2013 at 12:49 am#342615