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MIke,
you said:Quote The former sounds like God is “restrained” to heaven and couldn't leave if He wanted to. But we know that God Himself walked in the Garden of Eden looking for Adam. So He apparently came to Earth at least once in scripture.
That was God as the Son who walked in the Garden of Eden. No man has seen the Father. Good for you to recognize that the one who walked in the Garden was God. He talked to Adam too.Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 14 2011,18:25) Hi Pierre, I almost went back and edited that part out, so as not to distract from the topic of the thread.
Is the question, “Did God Himself walk through the Garden of Eden?” close enough to the topic for us to discuss it here?
Do any of you mind if we discuss this here?
mike
mikeI have no objection
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ July 14 2011,19:05) MIke,
you said:Quote The former sounds like God is “restrained” to heaven and couldn't leave if He wanted to. But we know that God Himself walked in the Garden of Eden looking for Adam. So He apparently came to Earth at least once in scripture.
That was God as the Son who walked in the Garden of Eden. No man has seen the Father. Good for you to recognize that the one who walked in the Garden was God. He talked to Adam too.Kathi
Kathino, God the creator never walked on the earth,
Da 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.KJV
angel only represent God ,and there are many interventions
Ge 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her
Jdg 13:16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ July 13 2011,19:05) MIke,
you said:Quote The former sounds like God is “restrained” to heaven and couldn't leave if He wanted to. But we know that God Himself walked in the Garden of Eden looking for Adam. So He apparently came to Earth at least once in scripture.
That was God as the Son who walked in the Garden of Eden. No man has seen the Father. Good for you to recognize that the one who walked in the Garden was God. He talked to Adam too.Kathi
Hi Kathi,There is much to say on this topic.
Young's Literal Translation
And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.I'm not aware of any verse that says Adam and Even actually SAW the face of God…………..are you?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 14 2011,05:47) Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2011,09:11) Quote (Istari @ July 13 2011,23:59) Who is the ONE PERSON WHO VOTED FOR the first item …. in the poll?
it is me,that believe and know that scriptures says that God throne is in heaven,Pierre
Me too. I don't know why only one vote shows up for “Heaven”.IMO, the D-Linquent who created this poll should not have had “ONLY IN Heaven” as a choice, but simply “Heaven”.
The former sounds like God is “restrained” to heaven and couldn't leave if He wanted to. But we know that God Himself walked in the Garden of Eden looking for Adam.
So He apparently came to Earth at least once in scripture.
In Genesus 3:8 may be speaking of the presence(paniym) of God and not literally God.Also please note that “paniym” is translated to “face” in Exodus 33:11 and Exodus 33:20.
Since Adam and Even did not perish on seeing God's face I am sure it is not “paniym” in the sence of Exodus 33:20 that they hid from.
Note: I used KJV of scripture as context for this post.
Hi Kerwin,
Scripture never says Adam and Eve SAW the face of God. It says they HID from His face.
About the “presence” thought, who really knows? I can't imagine a “presence” walking though.
This subject kind of popped up unexpectedly. I can easily explain how I've understood it each time I read it – but I haven't really looked into any other thoughts or scriptures that might either support my understanding or refute it.
I've always just assumed it was God Himself, because that's what it says, right?
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2011,06:15) Hi Kerwin, Scripture never says Adam and Eve SAW the face of God. It says they HID from His face.
About the “presence” thought, who really knows? I can't imagine a “presence” walking though.
This subject kind of popped up unexpectedly. I can easily explain how I've understood it each time I read it – but I haven't really looked into any other thoughts or scriptures that might either support my understanding or refute it.
I've always just assumed it was God Himself, because that's what it says, right?
peace,
mike
Mike,Scripture was written in a different culture and it is one alien to my own. The people of those various ages looked at things different than I have been taught. I am yet learning to see from God's point of view that will enable me to to understand theirs in full.
I do know that Moses was said to speak to God presence to presence though he did not see God's presence in such a way as to perish.
I also know that Scripture states the law was given by angels through the mediator Moses.
It thus seemed that the presence of God was linked to those angels.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 14 2011,12:05) MIke,
you said:Quote The former sounds like God is “restrained” to heaven and couldn't leave if He wanted to. But we know that God Himself walked in the Garden of Eden looking for Adam. So He apparently came to Earth at least once in scripture.
That was God as the Son who walked in the Garden of Eden. No man has seen the Father. Good for you to recognize that the one who walked in the Garden was God. He talked to Adam too.Kathi
Greetings Kathi …. In Gen: when it speaks of God walking with the man in the cool of the evening,how do we know that there was physical manefestation of God in the flesh as opposed to a spiritual presence…Hi Ted, Pierre, Mike, and Kerwin…
The Jewish Targums can clear up whether the Jews believed the Lord God referred to in OT was the Father or the 'Word of the Lord' who those in the NT times find out is the Son. The Targums are the translations of the Hebrew Bible into Aramaic. They are written with the Jewish understanding inserted into the text. For instance, you can find 'the Word of the Lord God' in the very same place in the same verse as you find 'the Lord God.' It takes John the disciple and follower of Christ to clarify who the 'Word' is. The Word is and was the Son who took part in the creation of the world.Here is a portion of the Targum of Jonathon with notes from the Targum of Jerusalem:
Genesis – Chapter 3
BERASHITH1. And the serpent was wiser unto evil than all the beasts of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, Is it truth that the Lord God hath said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2. And the woman said to the serpent, From the rest of the fruits of the trees of the garden we have power to eat;
3. but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden the Lord hath said, You shall not eat of it, nor approach it, lest you die.
4. In that hour the serpent spake accusation against his Creator, and said to the woman, Dying you will not die; for every artificer hateth the son of his art:
5. for it is manifest before the Lord, that in the day that you eat of it, you will be as the great angels, who are wise to know between good and evil.
6. And the woman beheld Sammael, the angel of death, and was afraid; yet she knew that the tree was good to eat, and that it was medicine for the enlightenment of the eyes, and desirable tree by means of which to understand. And she took of its fruit, and did eat; and she gave to her husband with her, and he did eat.
7. And the eyes of both were enlightened, and they knew that they were naked, divested of the purple robe in which they had been created. And they saw the sight of their shame, and sewed to themselves the leaves of figs, and made to them cinctures. [JERSULAEM TARGUM. And they made to them vestments.]
8. And they heard the voice of the word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the repose of the day; and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
9. And the Lord God called to Adam, and said to him, Is not all the world which I have made manifest before Me; the darkness as the light? and how hast thou thought in thine heart to hide from before Me? The place where thou art concealed, do I not see? Where are the commandments that I commanded thee?
[JERUSALEM TARGUM. Walking in the garden in the strength of the day……And the Word of the Lord God called to Adam, and said to him, Behold, the world which I have created is manifest before Me; and how thinkest thou that the place in the midst whereof thou art, is not revealed before Me? Where is the commandment which I taught thee?]
10. And he said, The voice of Thy Word heard I in the garden, and I was afraid, because I am naked; and the commandment which Thou didst teach me, I have transgressed; therefore I hid myself from shame.
11. And He said, Who showed thee that thou art naked? Unless thou hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded that thou shouldst not eat.
12. And Adam said, The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the fruit of the tree, and I did eat.
13. And the Lord God said to the woman, What hast thou done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me with his subtilty, and deceived me with his wickedness, and I ate.
14. And the Lord God brought the three unto judgment; and He said to the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou of all the cattle, and of all the beasts of the field: upon thy belly thou shalt go, and thy feet shall be cut off, and thy skin thou shalt cast away once in seven years; and the poison of death shall be in thy mouth, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between the seed of thy son, and the seed of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the woman keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel. Nevertheless for them there shall be a medicine, but for thee there will be no medicine; and they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.
[JERUSALEM TARGUM. And it shall be when the sons of the woman consider the law, and perform (its) instructions, they will be prepared to smite thee on thy head to kill thee; and when the sons of the woman forsake the commandment of the law, and perform not (its) instructions, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel, and hurt them. Nevertheless there shall be a medicine for the sons of the woman, but for thee, serpent, there shall be no medicine: but it is to be that for these there shall be a remedy for the heel in the days of the king Meshiha.]
16. Unto the woman He said, Multiplying, I will multiply thy affliction by the blood of thy virginity, and by thy conception; in sorrow shalt thou bear children, and to thy husband shall be thy desire, and he will have rule over thee unto righteousness or unto sin.
17. But to Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened to the word of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it, accursed is the ground, in that it did not show thee thy guilt; in labour shalt thou eat (of) it all the days of thy life.
18. And thorns and thistles will it put forth and increase on account of thee, and thou shalt eat the herb which is on the face of the field. And Adam answered: I pray, through mercies from before Thee, O Lord, that we may not be accounted as the cattle, to eat the herb of the face of the field. Let us stand up, and labour with the labour of the hands, and eat food of the food of the earth; and thus let there be distinction before Thee, between the children of men and the offspring of cattle.
[JERUSALEM TARGUM. And thorns and dardareen shall it increase to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb which is on the face of the field. Adam answered and said, I pray, through mercies from before Thee, O Lord, that we be not accounted before Thee as the cattle, to eat the herb which is on the face of the field. Let us now stand up, and labour with the labour of the hands, and eat food of the fruits of the earth; and in these things let there be distinction before Thee between the children of men and the cattle.]
19. By the labour of thy hands thou shalt eat food, until thou turn again to the dust from which thou wast created: for dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return; for from the dust it is to be that thou art to arise, to render judgment and reckoning for all that thou hast done, in the day of the great judgment.
20. And Adam called the name of his wife Hava, because she is the mother of all the children of men.
21. And the Lord God made to Adam and to his wife vestures of honour from the skin of the serpent, which he had cast from him, upon the skin of their flesh, instead of that adornment which had been cast away; and He clothed them.
22. And the Lord God said to the angels who ministered before Him, Behold, Adam is sole on the earth, as I am sole in the heavens above; and it will be that they will arise from him who will know to discern between good and evil. Had he kept the commandments which I appointed to him, he would have lived and subsisted as the tree of life for ever.
23. But now, because he hath not kept that which I prescribed, it is decreed against him that we keep him from the garden of Eden, before he reach forth his hand and take of the tree of life:
for, behold, if he eat thereof, living he will live and subsist for ever. And the Lord God removed him from the garden of Eden; and he went and dwelt on Mount Moriah, to cultivate the ground from which he had been created.24. And He drave out the man from thence where He had made to dwell the glory of His Shekina at the first between the two Kerubaia. Before He had created the world, He created the law; He prepared the garden of Eden for the righteous, that they might eat and delight themselves with the fruit of the tree; because they would have practised in their lives the doctrine of the law in this world, and have maintained the commandments: (but) he prepared Gehinnam for the wicked, which is like the sharp, consuming sword of two edges; in the midst of it He hath prepared flakes of fire and burning coals for the judgment of the wicked who rebelled in their life against the doctrine of the law. To serve the law is better than (to eat of) the fruit of the tree of life, (the law) which the Word of the Lord prepared, that man in keeping it might continue, and walk in the paths of the way of life in the world to come.
[JERUSALEM. And the Word of the Lord God said, Behold, Adam whom I have created is sole in my world, as I am sole in the heavens above. It is to be that a great people are to arise from him; from him will arise a people who will know how to discern between good and evil. And now it is good that we keep him from the garden of Eden before he stretch forth his hand and take also of the fruit of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever……And He cast out Adam, and made the glory of His Shekina to dwell at the front of the east of the garden of Eden, above the two Kerubaia. Two thousand years before He had created the world, He created the law, and prepared Gehinnam and the garden of Eden. He prepared the garden of Eden for the righteous, that they should eat, and delight themselves with the fruit of the tree, because they had kept the commandments of the law in this world. For the wicked He prepared Gehinnam, which is like the sharp, consuming sword with two edges. He prepared in the depth of it flakes of fire and burning coals for the wicked, for their punishment for ever in the world to come, who have not kept the commandment of the law in this world. For the law is the tree of life; whoever keepeth it in this life liveth and subsisteth as the tree of life. The law is good to keep in this world, as the fruit of the tree of life in the world that cometh.]
found here: http://ultimasurf.net/bible….s_3.htm
I hope you find that interesting
Blessings,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ July 15 2011,12:02) I hope you find that interesting.
Hi Kathi,I did find it interesting and full of additional information that is not in the Hebrew texts. I also found it interesting as it shows that 3:15 is NOT a Messianic prophecy at all – something that I agree with.
The rendering by your source, which has “the voice OF the Word OF the LORD” is not supported by the Hebrew text.
The Hebrew mentions the “qowl” of the LORD, which means “sound, voice or speech” of the LORD. There is no way from the Hebrew to come up with the added words. Your source would have the Hebrew saying the “qowl” OF the “qowl” OF the LORD. And that is simply not what the Hebrew text says.
peace,
mikeMike,
The Targums are not supposed to be a word for word translation but more of a translation with the understanding of the Jews woven in it.Kathi
Mike /Kathi
why is it talks about the COMMANDEMENTS OF THE LAW in Gen 3; 15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between the seed of thy son, and the seed of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the woman keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel. Nevertheless for them there shall be a medicine, but for thee there will be no medicine; and they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.
this seems strange to me because you did not have the law at that time ,this is fishy no ?
Pierre
Targum of Jonathon
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between the seed of thy son, and the seed of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the woman keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel. Nevertheless for them there shall be a medicine, but for thee there will be no medicine; and they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.[JERUSALEM TARGUM. And it shall be when the sons of the woman consider the law, and perform (its) instructions, they will be prepared to smite thee on thy head to kill thee; and when the sons of the woman forsake the commandment of the law, and perform not (its) instructions, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel, and hurt them. Nevertheless there shall be a medicine for the sons of the woman, but for thee, serpent, there shall be no medicine: but it is to be that for these there shall be a remedy for the heel in the days of the king Meshiha.]
Gen 3:15 NASB
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”I believe that the commandments spoken about are referring to the future commandments. The King Meshiha (the Messiah, Jesus Christ) would be the remedy for the conflict.
But this is off topic…back to “Where is God?”
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2011,16:06) Targum of Jonathon
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between the seed of thy son, and the seed of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the woman keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel. Nevertheless for them there shall be a medicine, but for thee there will be no medicine; and they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.[JERUSALEM TARGUM. And it shall be when the sons of the woman consider the law, and perform (its) instructions, they will be prepared to smite thee on thy head to kill thee; and when the sons of the woman forsake the commandment of the law, and perform not (its) instructions, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel, and hurt them. Nevertheless there shall be a medicine for the sons of the woman, but for thee, serpent, there shall be no medicine: but it is to be that for these there shall be a remedy for the heel in the days of the king Meshiha.]
Gen 3:15 NASB
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”I believe that the commandments spoken about are referring to the future commandments. The King Meshiha (the Messiah, Jesus Christ) would be the remedy for the conflict.
But this is off topic…back to “Where is God?”
Kathi
Kathi
Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2011,14:45) this is fishy no ?
Hi Pierre,Maybe I'm being close-minded about this, but I'm leary of ANY writing that veers from the words of the cannonized scriptures.
So yes, quite fishy.
Kath! We have a Hebrew And Greek Dictionary, so I looked Meshiha up. I believe it is misspelled in that article.
The Messiah in Hebrew is 4336 Meyshak…. I am with Mike and Pierre, I don't put to much stock in those articles….
The Dictionary we have is a James Strong's, and I trust it…..Peace and Love Irene
To All,
Quote Job 23 New International Version (NIV)
1 Then Job replied:
2 “Even today my complaint is bitter;
his hand[a] is heavy in spite of my groaning.
3 If only I knew where to find him;
if only I could go to his dwelling!
4 I would state my case before him
and fill my mouth with arguments.
5 I would find out what he would answer me,
and consider what he would say to me.
6 Would he vigorously oppose me?
No, he would not press charges against me.
7 There the upright can establish their innocence before him,
and there I would be delivered forever from my judge.8 “But if I go to the east, he is not there;
if I go to the west, I do not find him.
9 When he is at work in the north, I do not see him;
when he turns to the south, I catch no glimpse of him.Why couldn't Job find God?
Why could Job not see God where God was at work in the North?
Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2011,17:10) To All, Quote Job 23 New International Version (NIV)
1 Then Job replied:
2 “Even today my complaint is bitter;
his hand[a] is heavy in spite of my groaning.
3 If only I knew where to find him;
if only I could go to his dwelling!
4 I would state my case before him
and fill my mouth with arguments.
5 I would find out what he would answer me,
and consider what he would say to me.
6 Would he vigorously oppose me?
No, he would not press charges against me.
7 There the upright can establish their innocence before him,
and there I would be delivered forever from my judge.8 “But if I go to the east, he is not there;
if I go to the west, I do not find him.
9 When he is at work in the north, I do not see him;
when he turns to the south, I catch no glimpse of him.Why couldn't Job find God?
Why could Job see God where God was at work in the North?
kerwin8 “But if I go to the east, he is not there;
if I go to the west, I do not find him.
9 When he is at work in the north, I do not see him;
when he turns to the south, I catch no glimpse of him.Job is on the earth and it seems he described that what ever happen is Gods work,like rain,storms,volcanoes action,and river flow ect,
but to see God in a way to talk to him was not possible ,many of the comments made by Job lead us to understand the need of a mediator between God and man,
this came trough with Christ.
Pierre
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