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Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 28 2011,10:32)
The problem you have with your theory is you have no unambiguous scripture that says the pre-incarnate Jesus had a beginning.
Col 1:15, Rev 3:14, Micah 5:2, Prov 8:22, Heb 1:6…………..
I said “unambiguous scripture” Mike. As you know there are various translations and interpretations of the verses you mention. Words like “firstborn”, and “beginning”, have different meanings in scriptures. And I don’t see Jesus name anywhere in Proverbs do you?But let’s look at the word “firstborn” in Col 1:15. Without even looking at other scriptural uses of “firstborn” you have to ask yourself if Paul means Jesus is literally the firstborn of “creation’ then that would mean the rest of creation is also “born” directly from God and would be the “second born and the third born etc. But anyone with any common sense at all would look at the contextual use of the word and see that Paul use of the word means “he has the pre-eminence” over all creation just as Isaac became the “firstborn” over his Fathers inheritance. But we know Isaac wasn’t the literal firstborn son don’t we? Once again your use of those scriptures are ambiguous and are not proof at all that Jesus before the incarnation had a beginning.
Was the creation that Jesus is the “firstborn” of, born from God?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 28 2011,10:32)
Before John says this he tells us that Jesus the Word that was with God and was God was already their at the beginning of all things
The beginning of all things? I don't have those words in my Bible.
Sure you do if you would take off your Arian glasses and look at the context. Did you purposely ignore this point…?“In fact the scriptures tell us “Nothing came into being without him” and that would include “time, matter and space”.
All things came into being through Him, and ”apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being”.
If he was there before all things came into being then that means he was already there in the beginning of all things. Do you deny that “nothing came into being without him” or not?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18)
And John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus was THE God he was with, but someone other than that One. Even the trinni scholars agree to this.
No, and why would you misrepresent the Trinitarians Mike. They believe Jesus is God just as the Father is God, yet he is not the Father. John 1:1 doesn’t say the Word was “a god” but the Word was God.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 28 2011,10:32)
So why would an eternal God have to have a Son in human terms?
He no doubt didn't beget His Son in human terms.
Good Mike! Thanks for admitting that! Now why do you keep trying to force human terms on Jesus?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18)
But He specifically chose to use the Hebrew word “yalad”, which meant to them “brought forth as in childbirth”.
That is a total misrepresentation of the truth about the word “yalad” as I have shown you in the past that it does not always mean “brought forth as in literal child birth”.You never addressed the TWOT on the Hebrew word “Yalad”.
The word is often used in a figurative sense. Thus it may refer to a city or nation as giving birth to its inhabitants (e.g. Isa 23:4; 51:18 Ezk 16:20)….
See 'ab “father” and ben “son”. Yalad in Ps 2:7 (note that it is not Hiphil) refers to the relationship of love between the Father and the Son. The NT interprets it of Christ's resurrection and session at the Father's right hand (Acts 13:33; Heb 1:3-5; 5:5) (cf. Buswell, J. O., Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion [Zondervan, 1962] pp. 1, 107-112, II, 18).
Notice where they say “yalad” is not “Hiphil”. The definition of the word Yalad has different forms with different meanings. Here is Strongs for Yalad…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18)
Why would the all knowing God say He begot a son if that son had existed from eternity?
How can an eternal God literally beget an only Son who is not by nature everything that God is, which includes “Eternal”?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18) Why would he use a father/son relationship to describe what you think are two persons in one being?
It is not what I think, but it is what the scriptures say.The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being (hypostasis),…
Was the Father ever without his Radiance or Glory?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18)
Does any human have a father/son relationship where both of them are the same being?
I thought you said…Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18) He no doubt didn't beget His Son in human terms.
So why are you trying to invoke human terms on the Father and Jesus now?Could it be that the relationship of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is far more intimate than you can imagine?
Their relationship is perfect in unity. Do you know of any human relationship that is perfect? If not then why do you place limits on an Eternal, Omnipotent God?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18) Wouldn't God have known how confusing this would have been to us to describe His relationship with His “co-God” as a father/son relationship where one was from everlasting and the other was “brought forth as in childbirth”? 
It is only confusing to you Mike because your eyes are blind or you choose not to see the Father and Jesus in nature are identical. You should carry your beliefs through Mike. If you believe that a human father and son have identical natures in every way, then why not the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18) Keith, I'll ask you what I asked Kathi: Since we know that Michael and Gabriel were brought forth at some time, we know that there was also a time when they didn't exist, right?
How does the question relate to Jesus the “Only Begotten Son”?Stop trying to make Jesus like every other created being for he is not!
Being brought forth does not always mean “born”, or “offspring”, or a “beginning”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18)
What SCRIPTURE tells you that it was different with Jesus?
What scripture tells you that Jesus begetting was like the others? He is the “Only (Monogenes) Son of God”.I wonder if there is a word like ‘Polysonism” meaning the belief in more than one “Only Begotten Son”?
You Mike are a “Polysonist”.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)
If he was there before all things came into being then that means he was already there in the beginning of all things.
Good try at a “fast one” Keith, but the fact remains that the phrase “of all things” is not evident in the Greek text of John 1:1 or 1:2. So “in the beginning” obviously refers to a time after Jesus was created by his God but before anything else was created by his God through him.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)
why would you misrepresent the Trinitarians Mike. They believe Jesus is God just as the Father is God, yet he is not the Father. John 1:1 doesn’t say the Word was “a god” but the Word was God.
I await your response in the “Freak Greek” thread on this subject.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)
why do you keep trying to force human terms on Jesus?
Keith, I seriously doubt that God wooed a girl, dated her, married her, had intercourse, and then waited nine months for His Son to be born. In that sense, Jesus was not begot in human terms. But why would you think that any son brought forth from any being would be the same being as the one who brought him forth? Why would you think that one who was brought forth into existence already existed eternally?These are the scriptures I've asked for. Do they exist? Or have they not been “brought forth” yet?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)
How can an eternal God literally beget an only Son who is not by nature everything that God is, which includes “Eternal”?
Adam was the son of God and made in God's image. Does that mean Adam was from eternity? If Jesus was God from eternity, then he was never brought forth, and therefore not the SON OF God. Keith, if the only eternal being in existence brings forth a son, that son will most likely (but certainly not necessarily) be LIKE the father who brought him forth. But the fact he was brought forth and is his father's SON eliminates the possibility that he was also from eternity.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,19:18) Why would he use a father/son relationship to describe what you think are two persons in one being?
It is not what I think, but it is what the scriptures say.
There is no scripture that says Jesus and Jehovah are two persons in one being. You shouldn't claim that things born of your imagination are “what the scriptures say”. And since the scriptures NEVER say this, I ask again: Why would God use a father/son relationship to describe what you think are two persons in one being? It doesn't make sense, does it?And you blew off this question with a diversion: Does any human have a father/son relationship where both of them are the same being? YES or NO?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)
Could it be that the relationship of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is far more intimate than you can imagine?
You hit the nail right on the head by using the word “imagine”. Keith, unlike you, I don't use my “imagination” to form my Biblical understanding…………I use what the scriptures actually say.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)
If you believe that a human father and son have identical natures in every way, then why not the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?
Keith, when you show me any “other” father/son relationship where the father and son are the same being, you will have a leg to stand on. Until then, you are speaking a crazy, invented language that I can't understand and that the scriptures don't support.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)
Stop trying to make Jesus like every other created being for he is not!What scripture tells you that Jesus begetting was like the others? He is the “Only (Monogenes) Son of God”.
Keith, these are not answers to the question I asked, which was: Since we know that Michael and Gabriel were brought forth at some time, we know that there was also a time when they didn't exist, right? What SCRIPTURE tells you that it was different with Jesus?Can you list a SCRIPTURE, (as opposed to your overactive imagination), that clearly tells us Jesus always existed? If you can't, then you and Kathi have NO REASON WHATSOEVER to just “assume” things that are contrary to God's own laws of nature, which say if one is brought forth, then it stands to reason there was also a time when that one did not exist.
mike
Thanks again for praying for the situation in the south. Our electricity is back up after 72 hours. I was talking with someone today that home and six horses and family were all fine but probably more than 100 of their trees felled and their neighbors on either side of them completely lost their home and there were a few deaths on their street. They may be without power for 2-3 weeks, she said. These kind of times opens the door to share about the hope we have in Christ and in practical ways.
Blessings to you,
KathiMike,
You ask:
Quote Since we know that Michael and Gabriel were brought forth at some time, we know that there was also a time when they didn't exist, right? What SCRIPTURE tells you that it was different with Jesus?
Mike, for all creation, there was a time when those created out of new substance did not exist.Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host. The word of the Lord is the Son, He made the heavens and all their host (angels too). The Son created Michael and Gabriel, even the heaven where they dwell. This proves the deity of the Son and that He is the creator if you have eyes to see with your heart.Kathi
If any one still has a question for me that I didn't answer, please give me one at a time, thanks!
KathiQuote (Istari @ April 28 2011,01:55) WJ,
You know how when a truth is spoken (the light) those who love darkness run and hide behind shields of deceit (Darkness).It would help if there was honesty and truthseeking amongst the posters – that truth could build upon truth – but it appears that some like to tear down truth from another (Don't think they don't understand what they are doing – they do, indeed)
They say, 'I know he speaks truth but if we hiss him off by corrupting what he says or just downright denying the truth in it then, though we deny it now, we can use it later for ourselves …'
Now, why would someone deny a truth today from a truthsayer and then be saying the something tomorrow as if that person discovered it themselves – what kind of person dies that kind of thing?
Yes, a very CLEVER person… Their deceit has no lower bounds!
Does God seek – 'Clever' – people?Or does He seek – Honest – people?
Istari,
Dude just man up and just dog out say it that your either talking about me or whoever your talking about.Why you being a wuss?
For someone who cliams that God only seeks for honest people, you sure dont fit in that category.
In fact if i recall correctly your post are always full of clever ways to insult people and in riddles.
Actually let me ask you a direct question and I expect a yes or no answer.
Istari do you believe that your past behavior in HN which lead to your banishment was of God?
Did God seek you doing this?SF,
I was not referring to you!Jesus was vilified, scorned and scourged leaving him with colourful wounds and got 'banned' from life for three days and nights for speaking truth.
Did God Seek Jesus for doing as he did?
Quote (Istari @ April 27 2011,19:07) Kar,
Let it go with them – they are lost.They attack and then cry foul when they are attacked back.
The forum has become a place for deceit and they are the master if it so dont believe anything you say to them will change them.
Satan is the master of the earth (T8 – Earth!) – this is his province – his Kingdom – he rules it.
These are the master of their Earth – this forum – it is their Kingdom – they rule it.
They punish the good and reward the bad – they 'toss away' the good card and keep the bad while laughing and posting falsified information JUST TO SOFTEN THEIR PAIN…Dont worry about their falseness – it will become their REWARD – a false reward.
Self-seeking ones always end up the losers – has to be – that is TRUTH – can Dark triumph over Light?
The God of this Forum upholds their base activities and scorns the truth-teller… Where have you heard that before?
Actually JA. the Earth is YHWH's.Psalm 24:1
Of David. A psalm. The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;1 Corinthians 10:26
for, “The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.”The god of the age/eon/world is Satan.
2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.The Earth and the world are not the same obviously. Satan does not own, nor is he the God of the Earth.
T8,
Thank you for your refinement – how I wish that others were so kind as to furnish correction with such humility and Godly love. A desire bound with corrective truth and humble righteousness.Quote (Lightenup @ April 30 2011,22:45)
Mike, for all creation, there was a time when those created out of new substance did not exist.
The substance of Jesus came from within God originally, right?
The substance of granite also came from within God originally, right?
The substance of lint also came from within God originally, right?I could go on and on through every single thing in existence, Kathi. ALL things originally came from within God if you trace it back far enough. So why is it, out of every single thing that originally came from within God, you think only Jesus was an already existent thing before God brought him forth? There is no scriptural or even secular basis for your opinion about this……………only your wishes.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 30 2011,22:45)
Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
The word of the Lord is the Son, He made the heavens and all their host (angels too).
So Jesus is the “word” AND the “breath of His mouth”? Where does scripture say Jesus is the “breath of His mouth”? And even if he was, who would you consider to be the Maker of the heavens and their hosts – YHWH Himself…………or the lessor things He did it THROUGH?Quote (Lightenup @ April 30 2011,22:45)
The Son created Michael and Gabriel, even the heaven where they dwell. This proves the deity of the Son and that He is the creator if you have eyes to see with your heart.
All things are FROM God and THROUGH Jesus, Kathi. Have your wishes blinded you to the difference between these two words? If so, read the prayer in Acts 4 again. They pray TO the Creator (singular, as in ONE) THROUGH the Creator's servant Jesus Christ.It's interesting and very telling to read the words you and Keith have been using here. Keith said my “imagination” won't allow for me to see the “truth”. And you now imply that I have to let my “heart” (emotions) guide me to the “truth”. Why can't I gain my understanding from the words of God that He has maintained for us throughout the ages? Why must I “imagine” things and be guided by human “emotions” and “wishes”?
Kathi, I asked you and Keith for a scripture that tells us Jesus defied the laws of nature as we know them – a scripture that explains how one who was brought forth already existed before he was brought forth. If there isn't one, then you guys should just be honest and admit that it is not scripture, but your own human “imagination” and “emotions” that lead you to make this claim. Then the rest of us could take it for what it is, instead of sitting on the edge of our seat waiting to see the actual SCRIPTURE that teaches the eternal existence of Jesus before he was brought forth.
peace,
mikeMike,
you said:
Quote The substance of Jesus came from within God originally, right?
The substance of granite also came from within God originally, right?
The substance of lint also came from within God originally, right?1. The substance of Jesus came from within God originally, right?
Can you show me a verse that says that?2.The substance of granite also came from within God originally, right?
Can you show me a verse that says that?3.lint also came from within God originally, right?
Can you show me a verse that says that?Quote So Jesus is the “word” AND the “breath of His mouth”? Col 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him.Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.Col 1:17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.So, the only begotten Son:
*is before all things in heaven and on earth aside from the Father.
*by the Son all things were created…even the authorities.
*the Son upholds all things by the word of His (the Son's) power.If the Son had a beginning of essential existence, then the Father didn't always have the radiance of His glory and was not always the Father.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,15:46)
1. The substance of Jesus came from within God originally, right?
Can you show me a verse that says that?2.The substance of granite also came from within God originally, right?
Can you show me a verse that says that?3.lint also came from within God originally, right?
Can you show me a verse that says that?
Absolutely! 1 Cor 8:6…………..for one. The Psalm you listed in your last post for another. Shall I go on? So why is it, out of every single thing that originally came from within God, you think only Jesus was an already existent thing before God brought him forth?Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,15:46)
So, the only begotten Son:
1. *is before all things in heaven and on earth aside from the Father.
2. *by the Son all things were created…even the authorities.
3. *the Son upholds all things by the word of His (the Son's) power.
1. Agreed.
2. THROUGH the Son, not BY the Son.
3. Agreed. His God has sure GIVEN him a lot of power and authority, eh?Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,15:46)
If the Son had a beginning of essential existence, then the Father didn't always have the radiance of His glory and was not always the Father.
Well, the Father wasn't a Father until He begot His Son. And before the Son, who was there in existence to “radiate His glory” to?Kathi, if God brought Jesus forth only today, and this new creation of God immediately began to radiate God's glory, it doesn't mean that God's glory wasn't already radiating from Himself, or from other things, before the Son was brought forth. No scripture says Jesus has radiated the glory of God from eternity. But I'm sure he started radiating that glory from the second his God created him.
You didn't comment on Acts 4, letting my emotions guide me instead of the words of scripture, or the fact that you have no scripture to support your claim that Jesus is from eternity.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2011,03:32) Before John says this he tells us that Jesus the Word that was with God and was God was already their at the beginning of all things meaning Jesus was before time and what is before time but eternity?
The problem you haven't addressed with this idea of yours is that if the Word was God, then that excludes the Father.If you read the text properly, it actually means the Word was divine as 'theos' has no definite article, so it is not addressing the person of God. If you add a definite article even though you shouldn't add to scripture, then you exclude the Father from being God.
Even many Trinitarian scholars know this and admit it and say for this reason it is talking of nature, not identity. But it has somehow escaped you and you continue publishing this untruth that the Logos was God HIMSELF.
But let's entertain your idea (for your sake) and imagine that the Logos is actually God himself.
Even that is not the Trinity. It would simply be an acknowledgment that all came from God, even the Logos.
You see if the Logos was God, and then became the Logos, and Jesus became or is the Logos, then it is not saying that he is God now is it. Look at yourself. You were created by God, and through Christ, via your mother and father.Are you your mother, father, Christ, or God?
No.Case closed.
Can we move on from this point WJ?
You haven't gotten anywhere with it after all.Mike,
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.For one thing, the 'all things' does not include the one Lord, Jesus Christ otherwise He exists through Himself. Also, there is no mention of all things coming from the substance 'within' the Father. The Psalms verse does not say anything about substance within the Father either. Sorry. If that is the best that you can do then you haven't been able to prove scripturally that all things are from the substance within the Father at all.
Kathi
Mike,
Quote Well, the Father wasn't a Father until He begot His Son. And before the Son, who was there in existence to “radiate His glory” to? Where is your scripture that says the Father was not a Father until He begat His Son? You were a father, a biological father before you begat/brought forth your son…for about nine months.
Where in scripture does it say that He needed someone to radiate His glory to?The Acts 4 scripture is a quote from the OT. The creator was the Father and the Son with their Spirit.
Kathi
Mike,
Quote His God has sure GIVEN him a lot of power and authority, eh?
His Father and Him were the same in nature and both almighty, one as the Son and one as the Father. Both were Jehovah.Jehovah the Son, our God has given His followers power and authority too.
The Father and the Son are the source of our power and authority over darkness. We wouldn't have power and authority unless our deity of the Father and the Son with their Spirit gave it. You can't take the Son out of that and still have the power and authority over darkness.
Kathi
Kathi,
By your logic, every MAN is a Father, and every Woman is a mother.And also, The Son is only 'his own Radiance' BECAUSE you believe that he is God!
You cannot use your own false logic to stake a claim that others are wrong – that is typical of a certain other Persons' logic.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,16:44) Mike,
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.For one thing, the 'all things' does not include the one Lord, Jesus Christ otherwise He exists through Himself. Also, there is no mention of all things coming from the substance 'within' the Father. The Psalms verse does not say anything about substance within the Father either. Sorry. If that is the best that you can do then you haven't been able to prove scripturally that all things are from the substance within the Father at all.
Kathi
Kathi,8:6 says that all things came FROM the Father. What do you suppose “from the Father” means? From somewhere OUTSIDE the Father…………..or from WITHIN Him? (We must assume that since Jesus came from his God, that Jesus is included in the “all things” that came FROM God. But since Jesus most probably didn't come through himself, I assume that Jesus is the only thing NOT included in the “all things” that came through Jesus.)
The Psalm you quoted says, “By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.” Where do you suppose the word and breath of YHWH came from? Somewhere OUTSIDE of God……………or from WITHIN Him?
They DO say what I claimed, if you think it through.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 30 2011,23:34) Thanks again for praying for the situation in the south. Our electricity is back up after 72 hours. I was talking with someone today that home and six horses and family were all fine but probably more than 100 of their trees felled and their neighbors on either side of them completely lost their home and there were a few deaths on their street. They may be without power for 2-3 weeks, she said. These kind of times opens the door to share about the hope we have in Christ and in practical ways. Blessings to you,
Kathi
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