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Hi All,
This is my post from page nine – my first post on this thread:
Quote There has never been a known occasion in the history of the world where someone who was brought forth into existence wasn't also subject to a time when he DIDN'T exist. I exist now because I was brought forth. But because I was brought forth into existence, it also means there was a time when I didn't exist.
I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to just assume this wasn't also the case with God's firstborn Son.
I don't believe one person commented on this point. Kathi? Keith?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,05:47) Hi All, This is my post from page nine – my first post on this thread:
Quote There has never been a known occasion in the history of the world where someone who was brought forth into existence wasn't also subject to a time when he DIDN'T exist. I exist now because I was brought forth. But because I was brought forth into existence, it also means there was a time when I didn't exist.
I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to just assume this wasn't also the case with God's firstborn Son.
I don't believe one person commented on this point. Kathi? Keith?
Interesting point which I happen to agree with.Thanks, Kerwin.
Let's wait and see what the “Jesus has been around forever” people say about this thought.
mike
I, too, agree with what Mike wrote (But it should be understood that He who brought all into existence was not Himself subject to that being brought into existence)
Good post, Mike!
All,
I realise I was a bit over the top and I apologise for making a public spectacle of myself again.
Here is what I will do;
I will no longer involve myself in any personal issues or take sides publically. (sort your own problems out).
All I will do is report any abusive posts – if I see them – and leave it at that. That is what we are supposed to do.
And I hope that others will do the same.
(I'm not the only one who does it – Im just a bit more dramatic)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2011,10:47) Hi All, This is my post from page nine – my first post on this thread:
Quote There has never been a known occasion in the history of the world where someone who was brought forth into existence wasn't also subject to a time when he DIDN'T exist. I exist now because I was brought forth. But because I was brought forth into existence, it also means there was a time when I didn't exist.
I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to just assume this wasn't also the case with God's firstborn Son.
I don't believe one person commented on this point. Kathi? Keith?
Yes, Mike I am so glad you brought that up, I agree…
Peace IreneQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2011,18:47) Hi All, This is my post from page nine – my first post on this thread:
Quote There has never been a known occasion in the history of the world where someone who was brought forth into existence wasn't also subject to a time when he DIDN'T exist. I exist now because I was brought forth. But because I was brought forth into existence, it also means there was a time when I didn't exist.
I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to just assume this wasn't also the case with God's firstborn Son.
I don't believe one person commented on this point. Kathi? Keith?
MikeThe problem you have with your theory is you have no unambiguous scripture that says the preincarnate Jesus had a beginning.
In fact the scriptures tell us “Nothing came into being without him” and that would include “time, matter and space”.
Before John says this he tells us that Jesus the Word that was with God and was God was already their at the beginning of all things meaning Jesus was before time and what is before time but eternity?
Simple logic using simple clear unambiguous scriptures.
Besides you are forgetting that Jesus is the “Only litteral Son the Father has”, right? So why would an eternal God have to have a Son in human terms?
WJ
WJ,
Only a point of order:
Why say someone was WORSHIPPED… then say 'He is worthy of Honor and Praise'
Is not 'to be worshipped' greater than 'To be honoured and praised' – for we Honor and Praise even of our own – but we (are not to) Worship of our own?
John won the Gold prize in many of his races. Yes, he even won the bronze in one race!
Besides, hasn't this been gone through before: The Jews and others were fastidious about the law and Knew not to worship ANYONE but the ONE TRUE GOD, THEIR FATHER… so why was there not an outcry seeing that they ACCUSED Jesus of BLASPHEMY.
They accuse him of blasphemy for saying he is the Son of God but not for – as you say – being WORSHIPPED?No, my man, there is another word akin to worship that can and was applied to one of high rank or position to which the ACT would not illicit any consternation – even to the most fastidious Of the Jews – and that word is 'Obesience'.
Moreover: WORSHIP Is more than just an act of bowing down – far more!
The purpose for saying don't bow down to Angels even simply bowing down is that such an act belittles the IMAGE OF GOD in which man is made – and Angels are NOT! and Angels know that it is death to them to allow themselves to be bowed down to – let one Worshipped – for that was what Satan sought that caused him to sin!
Oh, yes Keith, I have the same problem. I also believe that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.
Scriptures prove it.Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God.
Also is Jesus not His Son? tell me did your Son exist at the same time then you? I don't think so.
And what is a beginning? Why would John say in John 1:1 :In the beginning was the Word….His beginning..
Your problem with nothing came into being, is that you take it out of contact…Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
..Irene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2011,18:47) Hi All, This is my post from page nine – my first post on this thread:
Quote There has never been a known occasion in the history of the world where someone who was brought forth into existence wasn't also subject to a time when he DIDN'T exist. I exist now because I was brought forth. But because I was brought forth into existence, it also means there was a time when I didn't exist.
I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to just assume this wasn't also the case with God's firstborn Son.
I don't believe one person commented on this point. Kathi? Keith?
Mike,
You are comparing the divine nature with the human nature. Human nature insists that they have a beginning. Their beginning begins at the moment of conception except for Adam and Eve. Divine nature insists on an eternal existence and the Son and Father share in that nature and is their essential nature…two persons with the same eternal nature. One begotten from the other yet the 'one begotten' existed from eternity before being begotten. Even in human nature a child exists before they are born, even for about 9 months. The Son of God eternally existed.Also, I do not have electricity at my house so I am in the library. There were about 200 tornadoes that whipped through the south. Please pray for the people that have so much damage or lose of life in their family and all those who are fixing the power lines. From the way it looks, this could be a long week without power. We are all fine though, PTL!
God bless,
KathiKathi,
Sorry to hear about the problems you are experiencing.
May God have mercy on all and bring a speedy calm to the area.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 28 2011,15:34) Mike,
You are comparing the divine nature with the human nature. Human nature insists that they have a beginning.
Hi Kathi,I just watched a couple videos of the tornados. Man! Talk about a strong BODY of wind! I will pray for those affected.
Kathi, how do you know I'm only talking about humans? Angels were created, right? And since we know that Michael and Gabriel were brought forth at some time, we know that there was also a time when they didn't exist, right?
What SCRIPTURE tells you that it was different with Jesus?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 28 2011,10:32)
The problem you have with your theory is you have no unambiguous scripture that says the preincarnate Jesus had a beginning.
Col 1:15, Rev 3:14, Micah 5:2, Prov 8:22, Heb 1:6…………..Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 28 2011,10:32)
Before John says this he tells us that Jesus the Word that was with God and was God was already their at the beginning of all things
The beginning of all things? I don't have those words in my Bible. And John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus was THE God he was with, but someone other than that One. Even the trinni scholars agree to this.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 28 2011,10:32)
So why would an eternal God have to have a Son in human terms?
He no doubt didn't beget His Son in human terms. But He specifically chose to use the Hebrew word “yalad”, which meant to them “brought forth as in childbirth”.Why would the all knowing God say He begot a son if that son had existed from eternity? Why would he use a father/son relationship to describe what you think are two persons in one being? Does any human have a father/son relationship where both of them are the same being? Wouldn't God have known how confusing this would have been to us to describe His relationship with His “co-God” as a father/son relationship where one was from everlasting and the other was “brought forth as in childbirth”?
Keith, I'll ask you what I asked Kathi: Since we know that Michael and Gabriel were brought forth at some time, we know that there was also a time when they didn't exist, right?
What SCRIPTURE tells you that it was different with Jesus?
mike
Thanks to all for the “atta-boys”.
Let's not let this point slip through the cracks. Let's insist that Keith and Kathi show a scripture that says Jesus is from eternity……..or put enough pressure on them that they stop claiming their additions to scripture as facts.mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 29 2011,15:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2011,18:47) Hi All, This is my post from page nine – my first post on this thread:
Quote There has never been a known occasion in the history of the world where someone who was brought forth into existence wasn't also subject to a time when he DIDN'T exist. I exist now because I was brought forth. But because I was brought forth into existence, it also means there was a time when I didn't exist.
I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to just assume this wasn't also the case with God's firstborn Son.
I don't believe one person commented on this point. Kathi? Keith?
Mike,
You are comparing the divine nature with the human nature. Human nature insists that they have a beginning. Their beginning begins at the moment of conception except for Adam and Eve. Divine nature insists on an eternal existence and the Son and Father share in that nature and is their essential nature…two persons with the same eternal nature. One begotten from the other yet the 'one begotten' existed from eternity before being begotten. Even in human nature a child exists before they are born, even for about 9 months. The Son of God eternally existed.Also, I do not have electricity at my house so I am in the library. There were about 200 tornadoes that whipped through the south. Please pray for the people that have so much damage or lose of life in their family and all those who are fixing the power lines. From the way it looks, this could be a long week without power. We are all fine though, PTL!
God bless,
Kathi
Kathiwhatever God knows that men could not understand by his word he would not have written it down ,like man was created in the image of God so is all of earth creation a image of the heavenly realm,
Pierre
The problem with some is that they take analogy as a factual thing:
Did Jesus mean that the kingdom of heaven really was a Mustard Seed?
Can I suggest that analogies are kept as analogies and made to reality.
Human birth is due to restriction of the flesh. Spirits do not have flesh so there is no restriction on their creation ( Note: Creation – not PRO- creation)
Spirits do not procreate – they have no BODY to procreate from. Moreover only GOD AND god alone is the only Spirit from whom other spirits procede.
The Son of God was proceeded from God because God knew that mankind would sin at some point and a saviour would be required.
Which man who builds a system, does not build in safeguards. And yet that man is human – and God is omniscient… Which man who builds a 'Perfect' system does not know it's failure points and designs tools to fix it – and yet man is IMPERFECT…So, where are the safeguards in God's word – the Scriptures?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 28 2011,16:34) Also, I do not have electricity at my house so I am in the library. There were about 200 tornadoes that whipped through the south. Please pray for the people that have so much damage or lose of life in their family and all those who are fixing the power lines. From the way it looks, this could be a long week without power. We are all fine though, PTL! God bless,
Kathi
Hi KathiSorry to here about the tornados. I hope things get back to normal soon.
You have our prayers.
WJ
Hi Guys,
Thanks for your prayers. We are now over 48 hours without electricity so here I am at the library again but don't have much time. I'm charging my phones and such Interesting time! Keep praying for those who lost everything.Quote (Lightenup @ April 30 2011,07:56) Hi Guys,
Thanks for your prayers. We are now over 48 hours without electricity so here I am at the library again but don't have much time. I'm charging my phones and such Interesting time! Keep praying for those who lost everything.
Will be praying Kathy for all involved. Those were some Storms. I watched it all too…..Peace Irene
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