When did the devil fall?

Participant

Hi SF:

What we know about the devil is written in Genesis. We know that he was a serpent and not a cherubim, and we know that the judgment rendered to him was that he would crawl on his belly and eat dust on the days of his life. However, his spirit entered into the world through Adam and Eve because they obeyed his temptation.

This is the temptation to which Eve yielded.

Quote

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The scripture states that by “one man sin (iniquity) entered into the world. The devil is that spirit (the seed of the serpent).

Quote

Genesis 3: 14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, andbetween THY SEED and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

Ezekiel 28 is speaking to the King of Tyrus, a man. The scripture states “thou art that anointed churub…”.

According to the dictionary, the word cherub can mean “a beautiful or an innocent person or a child”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 21, 2010 at 4:45 am#198880

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2010,03:41)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 18 2010,19:07)

So your saying that God is so powerful that he couldnt convince us to love him back, so he already chosen a portion of humanity and forces them to love him?

So your saying God isnt powerful enough to convince people to love him back.

Gene,
Im starting to understand that we agree about the same thing.
But we disagree with the defintion of Free will.*

I see freewill is that you having the ability to make a choice without someone else forceing you.
Freewill adjective
1. made or done freely or of one's own accord; voluntary: a freewill contribution to a political fund.

I see freewill as something voluntary,

our choice can always be influnenced, i also believe that someone can do something regardless of infuence.

I think we have been argueingn for nothing,
you need to be clear about what you believe freewill is.

I do not believe that God forces people.
but People Choose God according to his Love, and his testimony for us, which you could say is a influence, or whatever you want to call it.

I also believe people that knew God, also have the chance to reject him.

Its voluntary.

Do you still disagree with me?

becuase I THINK im getting you but im not sure,

your post are confusing because of the manner you write, and your word choices.
To many ()
Just be direct with me.

*i posted this post to early and didnt finish. everything after the * is what i added.

June 21, 2010 at 4:57 am#198881

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 19 2010,09:57)

Hi SF:

This is the temptation to which Eve yielded.

Quote

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The scripture states that by “one man sin (iniquity) entered into the world. The devil is that spirit (the seed of the serpent).

Quote

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, andbetween THY SEED and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

Ezekiel 28 is speaking to the King of Tyrus, a man. The scripture states “thou art that anointed churub…”.

According to the dictionary, the word cherub can mean “a beautiful or an innocent person or a child”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Numbers,

Your points are based on speculation compelelty. and stating what scripture does not say.

Satan was a Cherubim and an Angel until inquity was found in him. it does not refer to Adam, and since you didnt refute my attack, you must also agree.

Satan was IN eden. as a serpent, and gained the rights of the prince of the air, the god of this world through the “fall” of adam.

There are a number of points that you didnt defend in my previous post, so therefore i conclude that you agree with my counter attacks.

And WOW ABOUT YOUR DICTIONARY DEFINITION.
very deceitful way to win an arguement.

here is the whole list
and note the very first number one meaning of Cherub.
(dictionary.com)

cher·ub /ˈtʃɛrəb/ Show Spelled[cher-uhb] Show IPA
–noun, plural cher·ubs for 3, 4; cher·u·bim /ˈtʃɛrəbɪm, -yʊbɪm/ Show Spelled[cher-uh-bim, -yoo-bim] Show IPA for 1, 2.
1. a celestial being. Gen. 3:24; Ezek. 1, 10.
2. Theology . a member of the second order of angels, often represented as a beautiful rosy-cheeked child with wings.
3. a beautiful or innocent person, esp. a child.
4. a person, esp. a child, with a sweet, chubby, innocent face.
Use Cherub in a Sentence
See images of Cherub
Search Cherub on the Web

Cherub definition

plural cherubim, the name of certain symbolical figures frequently mentioned in Scripture. They are first mentioned in connection with the expulsion of our first parents from Eden (Gen. 3:24). There is no intimation given of their shape or form. They are next mentioned when Moses was commanded to provide furniture for the tabernacle (Ex. 25:17-20; 26:1, 31). God promised to commune with Moses “from between the cherubim” (25:22). This expression was afterwards used to denote the Divine abode and presence (Num. 7:89; 1 Sam. 4:4; Isa. 37:16; Ps. 80:1; 99:1). In Ezekiel's vision (10:1-20) they appear as living creatures supporting the throne of God. From Ezekiel's description of them (1;10; 41:18, 19), they appear to have been compound figures, unlike any real object in nature; artificial images possessing the features and properties of several animals. Two cherubim were placed on the mercy-seat of the ark; two of colossal size overshadowed it in Solomon's temple. Ezekiel (1:4-14) speaks of four; and this number of “living creatures” is mentioned in Rev. 4:6. Those on the ark are called the “cherubim of glory” (Heb. 9:5), i.e., of the Shechinah, or cloud of glory, for on them the visible glory of God rested. They were placed one at each end of the mercy-seat, with wings stretched upward, and their faces “toward each other and toward the mercy-seat.” They were anointed with holy oil, like the ark itself and the other sacred furniture. The cherubim were symbolical. They were intended to represent spiritual existences in immediate contact with Jehovah. Some have regarded them as symbolical of the chief ruling power by which God carries on his operations in providence (Ps. 18:10). Others interpret them as having reference to the redemption of men, and as symbolizing the great rulers or ministers of the church. Many other opinions have been held regarding them which need not be referred to here. On the whole, it seems to be most satisfactory to regard the interpretation of the symbol to be variable, as is the symbol itself. Their office was, (1) on the expulsion of our first parents from Eden, to prevent all access to the tree of life; and (2) to form the throne and chariot of Jehovah in his manifestation of himself on earth. He dwelleth between and sitteth on the cherubim (1 Sam. 4:4; Ps. 80:1; Ezek. 1:26, 28).

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
Cite This Source
Search another word or see Cherub on Thesaurus | Reference
Seraphim Angels figurines

June 22, 2010 at 3:08 am#199071

Participant

Hi SF:

You say:

Quote

Satan was a Cherubim and an Angel until inquity was found in him

Where does the scripture say this?

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 22, 2010 at 3:20 am#199073

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 22 2010,14:08)

Hi SF:

You say:

Quote

Satan was a Cherubim and an Angel until inquity was found in him

Where does the scripture say this?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

Ezekiel 28:13-15 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering,
the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald,
and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee
in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee
so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones
of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

June 22, 2010 at 3:24 am#199074

Participant

Hi ED,
So not one mention of Satan?
Do you have any PROOF it speaks of him?

June 22, 2010 at 3:39 am#199078

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ June 22 2010,14:20)

Quote (942767 @ June 22 2010,14:08)

Hi SF:

You say:

Quote

Satan was a Cherubim and an Angel until inquity was found in him

Where does the scripture say this?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Nick,

Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which
deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Gen.3:1-5 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the
woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of
the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye
touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God
doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall
be as gods, knowing good and evil. (Here are your three witnesses) (Matt. 18:16)

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

June 22, 2010 at 3:41 am#199079

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ June 22 2010,14:20)

Quote (942767 @ June 22 2010,14:08)

Hi SF:

You say:

Quote

Satan was a Cherubim and an Angel until inquity was found in him

Where does the scripture say this?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed:

He is speaking to the King of Tyrus who is a man, is he not?

Quote

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Where does this say that Satan was an anointed cherub that obeyed perfectly until iniquity was discovered in him?

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 22, 2010 at 3:42 am#199080

Participant

Hi ED,
But what have these verses about Satan have to do with the other you claim speaks about him?

June 22, 2010 at 4:36 am#199094

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ June 22 2010,14:39)

Quote (Ed J @ June 22 2010,14:20)

Quote (942767 @ June 22 2010,14:08)

Hi SF:

You say:

Quote

Satan was a Cherubim and an Angel until inquity was found in him

Where does the scripture say this?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Nick,

Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will
exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon
the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be
like the Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,
to the sides of the pit. (a fourth witness)

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

June 22, 2010 at 4:38 am#199095

Participant

Hi ED,
This verse also does not speak of Satan, the devil, the serpent of old etc.
So why are you sure it refers to him?[2Cor13.1]

June 22, 2010 at 4:56 am#199096

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2010,15:38)

Hi ED,
This verse also does not speak of Satan, the devil, the serpent of old etc.
So why are you sure it refers to him?[2Cor13.1]

Hi Nick,

I made the connections for you between Rev.12:9 and Isaiah 14:12- with red, black-bolden, and red-bolden;
And I have also made the connections between Rev.12:9 and Ezekiel 28:13-15 and Gen.3:1-5 with black-bolden!
If you refuse to see it or believe it, I will not argue with you or anybody else about this important “Bible Truth”=117

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

June 22, 2010 at 6:22 am#199099

Participant

Hi ED,
You may be correct but it is unproveable[2Cor13.1]
Associations and similarities do not prove anything

June 22, 2010 at 6:47 am#199105

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 22 2010,08:41)

Quote (Ed J @ June 22 2010,14:20)

Quote (942767 @ June 22 2010,14:08)

Hi SF:

You say:

Quote

Satan was a Cherubim and an Angel until inquity was found in him

Where does the scripture say this?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed:

He is speaking to the King of Tyrus who is a man, is he not?

Quote

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Where does this say that Satan was an anointed cherub that obeyed perfectly until iniquity was discovered in him?

Love in Christ,
Marty

numbers,

first of all who was scripture talking about

The bible says that EVERY MAN FELL SHORT. we have the orginal sin in us.

The bible cliams that this guy is a model of perfection?

so your saying that Tyrus was perfect, in the garden of eden? where he was a cherub? until inquity fell in him.

It couldnt have talked abuot the king, because it was comparison stated.
The only other thing that was evil, and deceitful, in the garden of eden was the serpent,

the serpent which is satan,
Satan which is lucifer.

stop playing games and read your bible.

I know that you couldnt refute a single thing i said in the last post except one thing.

show me a verse that we have to believe in the bible?

show me please.

show me a verse that says that God loves me literally in first person as God saying “I love you”
God has nevered said “I love you” to a single indivual within the bible.

it says because he loves and what not.

stop speculating.

June 22, 2010 at 10:32 pm#199244

Participant

Hi SF:

You accuse me of speculating, but I believe that it is you who is doing the speculating by adding to God's Word. These scriptures say nothing about the serpent or Satan, and frankly, this is how confusion gets started when someone like you adds to God's Word.

The scripture is speaking to the King of Tyrus and he is a man.

Quote

Ezekiel 28

1The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Quote

Ezekiel 28:6Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Quote

Ezekiel 28:12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

In verse 13, he is still speaking to the King of Tyrus, a man but then he refers to the Garden of Eden and he says, “perfect in the day that he was created”. Adam was perfect in the day that he was created. He did not have sin until he yielded to the serpent through his wife.

Also, what do you mean by “original sin”. All of mankind have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God which is true. But if you mean that we were born with sin as infants, no, that again is a misinterpretation of scripture.

The scripture states that by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, and so, death passed upon all men in that all men have sinned, and that is true. But sin is defined as “the transgression of the Law”, and no infant has done that.

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 23, 2010 at 12:29 am#199266

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 23 2010,03:32)

Hi SF:

The scripture is speaking to the King of Tyrus and he is a man.

Quote

Ezekiel 28

1The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

Quote

Ezekiel 28:6Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Quote

Ezekiel 28:12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Numbers

Speculatoins.

Adam was not mentioned.
when is say orginal sin, which i pertain to that all man have fallen short.

Adam nor the King were covered in these precious stones they DAY they were created. nor having the pipes of music or what not.

Adam was not on the holy mountain of God nor King Tyrus

When did Tyrus and ADam walk on the stones of fire?

INQUITY WAS NOT FOUND IN ADAM!!!! i said this already!! HE COMMITTED AN OPEN SIN!!! A ACTION OF SIN, NOT A HIDDEN DESIRE TO BE MORE THAN GOD!!

THE SERPENT KNEW THIS THOUGH according to Genesis!!!!

i never talked abuot infants. Untopical.

MY POINT: Observations
1)The scripture clearly does not speak of Adam nor Tyrus,
2)but it is comparision to Tyrus.
3) It speaks of a Perfect model
4) Someone in Eden
5) made of precious stones and pipes
6) on the Holy mourtian
7) who is Cherub and angel,
8) that had INQUITY not the action of Sin.

Numebers under these observations i state that it speaks of the Devil/satan/Lucifer,
becuase lucifer was an Angel, a churebuim
The same serpent that tempted adam and eve.

Becuase he was in Angel, a Chreub.

Show me who is the model of perfection.
You could say Adam,
but Adam was did not transgress by inquity but by the action of Sin. By that action he fell.
Adam was not created in precious stones. and he was not a Chureb.

Therefore You are SPECULATING.

June 23, 2010 at 12:51 am#199273

Participant

Hi SF:

No, nothing is mentioned of the serpent or satan at all. The scriptures are referring to a man.

Who said the devil was an Angel or a Cherub. Show me in the scriptures where that is said of him.

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 23, 2010 at 1:31 am#199281

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 23 2010,05:51)

Hi SF:

No, nothing is mentioned of the serpent or satan at all. The scriptures are referring to a man.

Who said the devil was an Angel or a Cherub. Show me in the scriptures where that is said of him.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Numbers,

First tell me who is the perfect model of perfection
who was made of precious stones,
who was in the holy mountain?
who was inquity found?
Who is the Cherub that this scripture speaks of?

YOU SHOW ME OF WHOM THIS SPEAKS OF.

you already know that you got it wrong
becuase you didnt refute my attacks about your ideas on Adam and Tyrus.

So since you didnt even defend it, i can assume that you agree.
therefore you show me of whom these scriptures speak of.
which we already know it does not speak of Adam nor Tyrus

answer my questions.

June 23, 2010 at 3:21 am#199301