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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2010,14:23) Hi SF,
No you cannot find a truth in a patchwork quilt of scriptures.
Find it written, and find it written again.
ExactlyNick: When I was a child I spake like a child, but when I became a man I put away childish ways! Some people continue to parrot the same religious bull over and over for more that 2000 years. Life evolves and grows and changes. God is life and his words are life. If a persons doctrines haven't grown into deeper truth than 2000 years ago then he is just perpetrating lies. So be it!
If I am wrong in my doctrines why do you not have pity and try to save me with the truth. Just calling my work “fantasies” is pointing the accusing finger with no validity of truth. We know who the accusor of the bretherin is. I personally think you are better than that.
We are all going to get some of the pie of God. I want to know about your slice but you don't even believe that I have a slice. I have studied within the church structure for the first ten years and then alone at home for twenty more years. Know one has influenced my understanding of the scriptures but my cries to Jesus for truth. He was also not well recieved. Jesus said he who is least in the Kingdom shall be great. At least I make the grade of least. George called me the “anti-christ” in one post so I am blessed with persecution for righteousness sake. Lets grow in the word together please! TK
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2010,21:11) Hi TK,
Are your fantasies greater than the word?
Nick: The above post is in reference to your post on pg 16Hi TK,
My word is truth.
Dig deep and lay your foundation on rock.
Why would you offer the shifting sands of the ideas of puny men?Quote (942767 @ June 24 2010,14:51) You want me to speculate, but I cannot. Where does the scripture state that the devil was an anointed cherub or that he was perfect in beauty or any of this that you are trying to attribute to him? I have also heard that the devil was an angel in the heavenly choir, but that isn't in the bible, maybe in the Quran, I am not sure of this.
The scriptures in Ezekiel 28 are addressed to a man, and I only know one man who was literally in the Garden of Eden, but it may be that may be that the Garden Eden is compared to the luxurious life-style that the King of Tyrus lived.
Isaiah 14 also states:
Quote Isaiah 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
This is addressed to King Nebuchadnezzar.
Love in Christ,
Marty
942767………You have rightly posted this Brother. IMOpeace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Quote (RokkaMan @ June 01 2010,08:12) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 01 2010,08:03) I think it might be good to first PROVE, through scripture, who this Satan of which you all keep referring to IS! Then DEFINE the “heaven” of which you believe he fell from!
Then tell us WHEN it was he fell and WHY he fell!
Good point….I actually got off the phone with Simple Forgiven and brought some of those points up.
We first have to define Satan, then Heaven, then the nature of his falling…how many times he fell, in what way did he fall (authority, glory, power)…ect
There are a lot of factors, but we would need to start by establishing a basis of understanding.
If we don't…then we'll spend 20 pages debating and arguing apples and oranges even though they are both fruit…lol
RM……….I could not have said it better>First lets understand the (WORD) Satan, then as Jodi said what Heaven did he or it fall from. Adding to scripture to force our preconceived ideas is hardly establishes any truth. Jodi has produced the best Proof so far as far as i am concerned on this subject.
If we consider that Jesus called Peter Satan and said Judas was a devil, and the Pharisees were childern of the devil, would be a good start Point in understanding the word (SATAN) is it a Person or Being or a Spirit attitued. If our understandings do not fit these Perimeters then we can't define who or what Satan really is. IMO
I believe that the Word Satan simply means (Adversarial Spirits or intellects) , God uses it to bring about His Justice and Judgements on Man, as in the case of JOB. The personification of a real Being call Satan as a individual does not really fit scripture , it appears that Satan Or ADVERSARY is more a spirit intellect that is (IN) people, and cause them to react contrary to things, and while some of this could be good it can also be bad if it is being contrary to GOD'S WILL. Jodi has produced the best explanation so far , IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Hi,
The devil, Satan the Serpent of old still can seek permission to test us as with Peter.[Lk22.31, Rev 2.10]The hedge protection of God needs to be prayed for.[Jb1-2, Mt6]
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:19) RM……….I could not have said it better> First lets understand the (WORD) Satan, then as Jodi said what Heaven did he or it fall from. Adding to scripture to force our preconceived ideas is hardly establishes any truth. Jodi has produced the best Proof so far as far as i am concerned on this subject.
If we consider that Jesus called Peter Satan and said Judas was a devil, and the Pharisees were childern of the devil, would be a good start Point in understanding the word (SATAN) is it a Person or Being or a Spirit attitued. If our understandings do not fit these Perimeters then we can't define who or what Satan really is. IMO
I believe that the Word Satan simply means (Adversarial Spirits or intellects) , God uses it to bring about His Justice and Judgements on Man, as in the case of JOB. The personification of a real Being call Satan as a individual does not really fit scripture , it appears that Satan Or ADVERSARY is more a spirit intellect that is (IN) people, and cause them to react contrary to things, and while some of this could be good it can also be bad if it is being contrary to GOD'S WILL. Jodi has produced the best explanation so far , IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
HI Gene,If you took the time to consider what you say,
you 'might' discover the FLAWS in your 'theory'!1) Job asked God if he could test himself ?
2) So then Job became an adversary against himself ? ?
3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?
4) Job then proceeded to give boils to himself to which he then blamed God for these boils ? ? ? ?Your 'intellect' logic is so far out there that it is no wonder you claim a 'captive will'; of your own making of course!
ED J ………..Please show scripture where Job ask GOD to test Him. My bible say GOD ask Satan (not Job) if he had considerer Job, who was a perfect and upright man. God was using the adversarial spirit to correct Job's thinking. And if you will read the end of Job you will see where it says that (GOD) Brought all this on JOB.
And you last commit shows the will that captivates your thinking nothing “FREE” about it. Pride is the trait of all “FREE” WILLER'S they are a God unto themselves. But they go around constantly putting their foots in their mouths it seems as you have Here. IMO
peace and love…………………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,08:52) Hi,
The devil, Satan the Serpent of old still can seek permission to test us as with Peter.[Lk22.31, Rev 2.10]The hedge protection of God needs to be prayed for.[Jb1-2, Mt6]
Nick……A least you understand that Job had a Hedge protection around Him, But all are tested and tried also, Peter said that we are Tried, ” NOW CONCERNING THIS FIERY TRIAL THAT HAS TRIED YOU AS IF SOME STRANGE THING HAS HAPPENED UNTO YOU”, and again, “FOR GOD DISCIPLINES US AS A FATHER DISCIPLINE HIS CHILD AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON HE EXCEPTS.Job needed GOD'S discipline at that time in his life to prevent him from future problems, so God us the Spirit of an Adversary to bring about his discipline needed.Even Paul used it to save some , by turning them over to this Adversarial Spirit in order that in the resurrection they would be saved.
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2010,15:00) Hi 94,
Any other human cherubs in scripture or do we have to take a closer look?
Hi Nick:The Revisied Standard Version translates as follows:
Quote Eze 28:14 With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. Maybe this is correct?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:19) The personification of a real Being call Satan as a individual does not really fit scripture , it appears that Satan Or ADVERSARY is more a spirit intellect that is (IN) people… …………………gene
HI Gene,How quickly we forget what we say! Does 'your' logic NOT then mean…
1) Job asked God if he could test himself ?
2) So then Job became an adversary against himself ? ?
3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?
4) Job then proceeded to give boils to himself to which he then blamed God for these boils ? ? ? ?Your 'intellect' logic is so far out there that it is no wonder you claim a 'captive will'; of your own making of course!
Quote (Arnold @ June 01 2010,05:53) SF If you believe after the seventh day, you must also believe that everything was created in that week.
Let me ask you this,Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep…
Do you believe that the earth looking like that would have given the angels cause to shout for joy?
Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Another question; would God have created the earth that way, knowing he was about to put man on it?
Georg
Hi Georg,You bring up a good verse. Gen 1:2 is talking about “darkness” and often this is referring to “evil” and Satan is evil. So, the fall was probably before the first day.
Also, as I learned it the earth “BECAME” void meaning that something was here and was destroyed…but back to the topic….
Is 14:12 talks about Lucifer (and Nick is right Lucifer is mentioned only ONCE.) falling….but not when.
That is why I refer you back to Gen 1:2 as it appears that he was the darkness covering the earth.
Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:19) The personification of a real Being call Satan as a individual does not really fit scripture , it appears that Satan Or ADVERSARY is more a spirit intellect that is (IN) people… …………………gene
HI Gene,How quickly we forget what we say! Does 'your' logic NOT then mean…
1) Job asked God if he could test himself ?
2) So then Job became an adversary against himself ? ?
3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?
4) Job then proceeded to give boils to himself to which he then blamed God for these boils ? ? ? ?Your 'intellect' logic is so far out there that it is no wonder you claim a 'captive will'; of your own making of course!
ED J……….What are you mouthing off about again nothing you have said here makes any sense at all, are you beginning to lose it man.
Seems you understanding is getting worse and worse. My logic means none of what you say or think for that matter. Nothing i said implies anything you are saying it does. Every time you open our moth you just keep putting you foot in it, it seems.gene
Quote (davidbfun @ July 27 2010,16:27) Quote (Arnold @ June 01 2010,05:53) SF If you believe after the seventh day, you must also believe that everything was created in that week.
Let me ask you this,Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep…
Do you believe that the earth looking like that would have given the angels cause to shout for joy?
Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Another question; would God have created the earth that way, knowing he was about to put man on it?
Georg
Hi Georg,You bring up a good verse. Gen 1:2 is talking about “darkness” and often this is referring to “evil” and Satan is evil. So, the fall was probably before the first day.
Also, as I learned it the earth “BECAME” void meaning that something was here and was destroyed…but back to the topic….
Is 14:12 talks about Lucifer (and Nick is right Lucifer is mentioned only ONCE.) falling….but not when.
That is why I refer you back to Gen 1:2 as it appears that he was the darkness covering the earth.
WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAHHOLD YOUR HORSES THERE BUDDY!
Mr Davidbfun,
How can you easily believe that?
Do you even know what darkness means? so you believe alls subjected darknesss talks about satan?1:2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
where does it say BECAME void? please show me.
destroyed? where does it say destroyed?
LOOK AT THE WORDS BROTHER!!
check this out, the first phrase is WITHOUT FORM, it does not state destroyed. It simply means that it does not have form.
VOID MEANS EMPTY!!!. it does not mean destroyed at any degree.
and darkness means without light. these terms do not exist without the lack of the substance at hand.
For example darkness does NOT EXIST. darkness is a term to describe the LACK of light. you can measure light and its colors but you cannot measure darkness.
how can Gods spirit whos eyes are to holy to behold sin, can be hand and hand with “EVIL” unless it was simply a lack of light.
there is no other verse to implicate that the DEVIL fell before the first day.
anything to suggest such a thing is a conjecture.Quote (Arnold @ May 31 2010,15:53) SF If you believe after the seventh day, you must also believe that everything was created in that week.
Let me ask you this,Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep…
Do you believe that the earth looking like that would have given the angels cause to shout for joy?
Job 38:4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Another question; would God have created the earth that way, knowing he was about to put man on it?
Georg
Arnold,I have just realized that i think i ignored your post. i dont remember.
actualy the angels shouted for joy on the FOUNDATIONs of the earth. not on the earth it self. if it was withuot form, than it was clearly not the foundation. the foundations were made on the 3rd day.
Yes he would have, he made something out of nothing. It said he created the HEAVEN and the EARTH, and he specficaly chose to make it in seven literal days.
not only the he make everything, but our weekly schedule, since everything is based on this 7 day time period within our daily schedules.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,14:26) Numbers lol you crack me up,
Im the one who created the thread,
you made a cliam within my set questions, therefore the burden of proof is on you,You state its Tyrus,
i already torn down the arguement and your arguemtn of adam,so you stand defeated.
the only thing you have left is to ask me to defend my points.
I dont need to.
I can clearly go along if the scripture does not speak of the devil.but here is what i do know.
MY POINT:Observations
1)The scripture clearly does not speak of Adam nor Tyrus,
2)but it is comparision to Tyrus.
3) It speaks of a Perfect model
4) Someone in Eden
5) made of precious stones and pipes
6) on the Holy mourtian
7) who is Cherub and angel,
8) that had INQUITY not the action of Sin.Who fits the description.
tell me who?
Let's take a look at what the scripture shows-
Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying , 2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up , and thou hast said , I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
THOU ART A MAN, NOT a fallen angel, or any other being. The scripture states that the Son of man is SPEAKING TO THE PRINCE of TYRUS.
The thou's and thy's all apply to the MAN, the king of Tyrus.
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: 4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: 5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: 6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; 7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. 8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. 9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. 10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers : for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. 11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying , 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created . 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth ; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created , till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
The scripture clearly states that it was a MAN who lifted up his heart declaring himself to be a god. The scripture clearly states that it was a man that was full of wisdom, beauty and riches.
A man was called a covering cherub. The king is said to be perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him. The person of who the Son of Man is addressing NEVER changes, it's all speaking to the King!
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