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WJ,
You say“This is circular Jack, simply because if one instance of Jehovah is Jesus then all instances of Jehovah can be Jesus since he is the “Invisible image of the invisible God”, then it is more likely that when Jehovah appears to men it is Jesus”
God was and is in him so where Jesus is there is God.
But the vessel, of course, is not the contents.
He is not the God that is in him.To All…..” I saw the Lord descending from mount Paran with ten thousands of (HIS SAINTS) to execute Judgment (IN) the EARTH and to (CONVINCE) all the ungodly of their ungodly deed which they have ungodly committed. Jack you are wrong on this one. IMO
gene
WorshippingJesus said;
Quote Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “”See, THE LORD IS COMING WITH THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF HIS HOLY ONES (AV saints)” to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” Jude 1:14,15 It is found AV — holy 65 times, Holy One 39, saint 12 in the AV and it is never used in referring to “Angels”!
The saints (qadowsh) that sat at Jehovah’s feet are obviously the children of Israel, men and not Angels.
TO ALL:Please note how WJ misreads Jude verses 14-15. The expression “these men” does not refer to the “saints” but refers back to the ungodly men he was describing. Let's look at Jude's statement beginning with verse 8:
Quote “Likewise also THESE dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 THESE [men] are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about THESE men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
Jude did not say that Enoch prophesied about men with which the Lord would come. Enoch prophesied about the judgment of “these” men, that is, the ungodly men of the previous verses. Enoch prophesied about “these” ungodly men and their judgment when the Lord would come with His saints [angels]. Note the demonstrative “these” which is repeatedly used of the ungodly men.WJ's mishandling of Jude's words bring his credibility into question.
The saints that the Lord came from Mount Sinai with were angels. We must let the new testament interpret the old. Acts 7:53 clearly says that they were angels:
“…who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”
Albert Barnes in whom WJ trusts concurs. We must allow the new testament to interpret the old.
If WJ says that Christ would come back with angels I take his word for it. But his assertion that He would also come back with men has no scriptural grounds whatsoever. Many futurists do not agree with WJ (Eerdman for example). Jesus said that when He would come He would send forth His angels to gather His elect, that is, men. So how could He come back with men?
Anyway, WJ's mishandling of the Jude text has me quite concerned.
I'll be back. No more time today.
thinker
Hi ALL
Can anyone see how Jack is jumping around and creating diversions to get me off track rather than address the points or is it just me? Then of course the next thing is to attack my credibility! Age ole tricks!
Jack the word for saints in Jude is Strong's G40 – hagios which is defined as; 1) most holy thing, a saint
Not once is the word used for Angels in the NT. In fact in Jude 1:6 Jude uses Strong's G32 – aggelos which is the Greek New Testament word used almost invariably for Angels.
Why would he use Strong's G32 – aggelos in Jude 1:6 for Angels and Strong's G40 – hagios in Jude 1:14 for saints if his meaning is the ten thousands of the saints that return with Jesus was angels?
Obviously jude is using the prophesy by Enoch for the future return of Christ with the Holy Angels and his saints!
You are circumventing and avoiding the truth by diversion again.
BTW as far as Jesus coming with the saints, and the Angels gathering saints supports the futurist view that the Lord is returning with those that are with him after they physically die and the Angels gather those that are alive when he comes! No contradiction!
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, “at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thess 3:13
Do you deny these words Jack?
WJ
Hi TT,
You should have greater ambitions than trying to prove the impossible.
King Jesus is coming back and has not yet met with his brothers in the air.WorshippingJesus said:
Quote And it shall be in that day, “that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem”; half of them toward the former [eastern] sea, and half of them toward the hinder [western] sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zech 14:9 Tell us Jack, according to the above scriptures, did “living waters go” out from Jerusalem in Zechariahs day? Did the Father set up a throne and become King over all the earth? No Jack this is the New Jerusalem where the living waters flow and Jesus is the King!
NOTE: The brackets in WJ's above statement are mine.TO ALL:
Please note that our brother Keith says that the prophecy in Zechariah above refers to the New Jerusalem. This presents a some big problems for him because he believes that this is when the Lord comes back. So this would have to be a postmillennial coming. I thought he believed that the Lord comes back before the supposed millennial kingdom. If the coming of Jehovah in verses 1-4 refer to the coming of Christ, and the Jerusalem in verse 8 is the New Jerusalem, then Christ's supposed future coming is obviously postmillennial for the New Jerusalem is on the new earth (Rev. 21).
Another problem is the reference to the eastern and the western seas. According to Keith the new earth does not have a sea. He thinks the reference to “no more sea” in Revelation 21:1 proves this. However, the “sea” is used interchangeably with the “abyss” where the devil was bound. It really means that there is no more abyss. There is a literal sea on the new earth as I have shown before. Isaiah 66 clearly says that men would come from “islands” to see God's glory and to declare it (66:19). The NKJV says “coastlands.”
If there are islands or coastlands on the new earth then there is a sea. Since Keith says that the Zechariah 14 prophecy is about the New Jerusalem and it has two seas; and since the New Jerusalem is on the new earth, then there are seas on the new earth.
Last, the futurists say that the New Jerusalem is also prophesied in the visions of Ezekiel in chapters 47-48. However, God told Ezekiel to tell the people that the fulfillment of EVERY vision would be in THEIR DAYS.
Quote 21 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 22 “Son of man, what is this proverb that you people have about the land of Israel, which says, ‘The days are prolonged, and every vision fails’? 23 Tell them therefore, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I will lay this proverb to rest, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel.” But say to them, “The days are at hand, and the fulfillment of every vision. 24 For no more shall there be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. 25 For I am the LORD. I speak, and the word which I speak will come to pass; it will no more be postponed; for in your days, O rebellious house, I will say the word and perform it,” says the Lord GOD.’”
26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 27 “Son of man, look, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many days from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ 28 Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “None of My words will be postponed any more, but the word which I speak will be done,” says the Lord GOD.' “ 12:21-28There it is friends! God clearly told Ezekiel to tell the people that the fulfillment of EVERY vision would be in THEIR days. He said that His words would “no more be postponed” but that He would perform them all.
This means that Ezekiel's visions cannot refer to the New Jerusalem because EVERY vision was fulfilled in THEIR days. This in turn means that the prophecy in Zechariah 14 was also fulfilled.
SUMMARY:
1. Keith says that the Zechariah 14 prophecy is about the New Jerusalem. This would mean that the coming of Christ in that chapter is postmillennial for the New Jerusalem is on the new earth. Therefore, Christ will not return to THIS earth to set up a supposed millennial kingdom. He will come at the time of the new earth.
2. Keith denies that the new earth has a sea. But the New Jerusalem has two seas and according to John's visions the New Jerusalem is on the new earth. Therefore, the new earth has seas. Isaiah confirms this (66:19).
3. The futurists say that Ezekiel's visions in chapters 47-48 are also about the New Jerusalem. This is not possible because God told Ezekiel to tell the people that EVERY vision would be fulfilled in THEIR days. So by implication the prophecy of Zechariah 14 is about a coming of Jehovah in THEIR own time.
thinker
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