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Quote (Cindy @ May 15 2009,16:32) Hi and Welcome! Even tho we are Gentiles, we are the Adopted Sons of Jehovah God. We are the Temple of God, and God's Holy Spirit lives in us. W.J. has been around for years. And yes He believes in the Trinity Doctrine. I am happy to have a another Gal on the website. We are outnumbered.
Peace and Love to you, Irene
we are all united in truth by his spiriti have read many of your and georg's post prior, thank you for the welcome it is warmly taken.
much love
reneQuote (Stu @ May 18 2009,19:17) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2009,17:22) That is right WJ. To say that you can know for sure that God doesn't exist, you must be all knowing. So at the end of the day, all he has is a belief and no proof, not even experiential evidence.
But that doesn't stop him from defending his religion.
Agree on all but two points. My conclusion that there are no gods is based on all the evidence we have, and I do not have a religion.Stuart
You have a belief that there is no God and your belief is a faith that has no proof.Your creator is Evolution. The religion of Evolution has its zealous component as any other religion in the world. Like many religions of the world, they can captivate the minds of it's adherents so that they can see no other reality outside their religion.
thethinker
Quote Your statement above makes no sense at all. It makes plenty of sense to me. That is all that is important really. I do like to think I set high standards for the probity of what I believe. I do not believe that people walk after they have been judicially executed or than snakes can talk. And you say that it is I that makes no sense!
Quote If there is no evidence to disprove my God then your evidence for athiesm is tentative at best.
I did NOT SAY there is evidence for atheism! In fact I specifically said there is not. Perhaps a little less thinking and a little more reading might help.Quote Your “provisional conclusion” is NOT scientific. You are interpreting the evidence in accordance with your presuppositions just as the creationist interprets according to his presuppositions.
I make NO presuppositions, other than the one that we have to assume that when we make empirical observations we are not being deceived. That seems to have worked well enough as a supposition to allow science to provide treatments for illnesses, communication technology…etc. Will you hand over your car keys because the science that gave us the technology to make a car engine is based on suppositions?My conclusion is scientific because my positive belief is that science explains everything that we have been able to explain so far. My conclusion, based on all the evidence we have, is that there are no gods. Call it a theory of no gods if you like. Have you got evidence that disproves that theory? If you can show me universally convincing evidence that would be perverse to deny, then I will have to change my view.
Stuart
t8
Quote You have a belief that there is no God and your belief is a faith that has no proof.
I have many beliefs. I have no faith position on anything, and surely something that is proof of faith would be an oxymoron!Quote Your creator is Evolution.
Evolution is the fact of the changes that have occurred in living things over time. How could it be a ‘creator’? Do you mean natural selection, the blind watchmaker? It is not a creator because it has no intent.Quote The religion of Evolution
Strawman. And a tedious one that has been refuted over and over again with no comeback from christian deludees. The only conclusion we can draw is that they are not worried by their god’s threats of eternal lakes of fire. Or is it that once you are SavedTM you have indefinite immunity from divine sulfur and are free to bear as much false witness as you want?Quote has its zealous component as any other religion in the world.
Only when creationists are in the building. Of course you will have never seen it from any other point of view. It is interesting to observe how biologists use evolutionary theory in their everyday work, sometimes in the same way an accountant might use a calculator. As an explanatory tool it works. Give me ONE useful insight into the natural world provided by creationism.Quote Like many religions of the world, they can captivate the minds of it's adherents so that they can see no other reality outside their religion.
I agree completely with your analysis of religion. There is hope for you yet.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 19 2009,20:20) I have many beliefs. I have no faith position on anything, and surely something that is proof of faith would be an oxymoron!
Oh but you do Stu.You have faith that there is no God.
You admit that you have many beliefs and no position. Yet to say that there is no God is a position and a statement of faith. Because you cannot prove it and yet you argue as if it is a certainty.
You say that out of
1) God created the cosmos
2) Nothing caused the cosmos
3) Something (dead) caused the cosmosthat 1 is definitely not an option.
That is a statement of your faith Stu.
That leaves you the other 2 possibilites to believe in.
Good to see you use the word “believe” though.
We are making some progress by the look of it.
t8
Quote You have faith that there is no God.
How can you have faith in a non-existent thing? Oh, I forgot, that is what you have…Quote [You admit that you have many beliefs and no position.
Where did I say I have no position?Quote Because you cannot prove it and yet you argue as if it is a certainty.
Are you claiming you can prove your faith position? Why would you need to call it faith?Quote Good to see you use the word “believe” though.
We are making some progress by the look of it.
I BELIEVE that god-believers are deluded. I base that belief on the evidence there is for it, not blind adherence to the ignorant writings of ancient goat-herders.Belief is not faith.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 20 2009,17:12) Belief is not faith. Stuart
Stu if you believe in something with no proof and you trust that the belief is correct, then you have trust in a belief that has no proof.This is when it becomes a faith. A belief that you trust in.
Have you ever heard someone say, have faith in me. What they are saying is to trust them.
Faith is the confident belief or trust in a person, idea, or thing. For example, the word “faith” can refer to a religion.
Quote (Stu @ May 19 2009,20:20) I agree completely with your analysis of religion. There is hope for you yet.
That is why I have a relationship with God and I belong to no denomination. I am not interested in joining a belief system of any kind, including atheism or even a system that calls itself Christian. Systems and institutions are effective more at institutionalizing its adherents than producing questioning and seeking people who love the truth.I prefer to live my faith. I am not interested in creating a belief that suits my desires or to use the truth as a form of life insurance that I submit to on Sunday only.
I consider the truth to be greater than my own self and reputation. So it is up to me to seek it and align with it.
It is no more complicated than that.
Atheism is one of many belief systems out there.
T8……….I tend to agree with Stu in His definition of true FAITH, requiring (EVIDENCE) , in my life that was the case, i was very sceptical of religions and needed my own personal proof which GOD has and still does give me. I can't give that to Stu or anyone not even my children. But scripture defines FAITH, as this, Faith is the substance of things Hoped for, the (EVIDENCE) of things NOT SEEN. No one has seen GOD at any time we are told, so in order to get the evidence, God must give it to us, and He does, at least He has to me. Paul said tell me this He that works Miracles among you dose He do it but works of law or by hearing of Faith. SO true faith does produce (EVIDENCE). I tried to explain that to Stu before but he simply can't accept it. Most of the time people mix up faith with suppositions, sadly, but there is real (PROOF) Available to those GOD is Calling. WE need to ask ourselves why would anyone expect you to believe them without PROOF> IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (wild_olive_branch @ May 21 2009,11:04) good day stu, have you read the torah?
will await your response
rene
What, the WHOLE THING? All the tedious genealogies Paul warns us against?No.
Stuart
t8
Quote if you believe in something with no proof and you trust that the belief is correct, then you have trust in a belief that has no proof.
What has proof got to do with it?Quote This is when it becomes a faith. A belief that you trust in.
How can you trust in a belief? Surely you trust the person who has provided the information. I have not personally done all the research for the science which I believe to be a good way of modeling the universe. I have trusted the integrity, professional reputations and their ethical contract with the rest of the population of the scientists that did the work. There are some experiments that I can repeat myself for verification but it is belief based on trust. It is not based on any faith. Faith is not respected. Evidence does the talking.Quote Have you ever heard someone say, have faith in me. What they are saying is to trust them.
That’s right. Actually when they say trust me, they are asking you to consider the evidence of their past trustworthiness, not take it on ‘faith’.Quote Faith is the confident belief or trust in a person, idea, or thing. For example, the word “faith” can refer to a religion.
That is not what my dictionary says in relation to religious faith. I think it is a pig-headed hope that things will be as the religio-political leaders have told them.Quote That is why I have a relationship with God and I belong to no denomination.
God only likes the Amish. You should have faith in what I tell you, for I have no evidence for it.Quote I am not interested in joining a belief system of any kind, including atheism or even a system that calls itself Christian.
How do you ‘join atheism’? That’s like joining a club for people who refuse to collect stamps. So you have invented your own belief system. Didn’t Jesus ask you to gather together with others of the same belief, in his name?Quote Systems and institutions are effective more at institutionalizing its adherents than producing questioning and seeking people who love the truth.
That is often very true, in many walks of life. I rather suspect the manner of you deciding what the truth is might be predicated on the contents of a book selected by an institution. Do you question that very often?Quote I prefer to live my faith. I am not interested in creating a belief that suits my desires or to use the truth as a form of life insurance that I submit to on Sunday only.
From that point of view you have an entirely consistent and respectable position I think. The problem with it is that you also spout creationism, which is made of lies and therefore something that obviously suits the desires of those who need it to be true. I’m not sure you have really thought through the implications of believing the lies of others on this point. Can you not develop a doctrine for yourself consistent with reality?Quote I consider the truth to be greater than my own self and reputation. So it is up to me to seek it and align with it. It is no more complicated than that. Atheism is one of many belief systems out there.
And atheism is only one single, negative, belief. Although it leads to a more positive view in my opinion. Just see how christianity brings out the worst in people! Me included…Stuart
Stu………What your dictionary says FAITH means is (NOT) What Scriptures say it IS. And which came first your dictionary or our Scriptures. Dictionaries (ABRIDGE) and change with time to accept modern usage of languages, unfortunately that has happened with the word (Faith).
Hebrews says..> Faith is the (substance) of things hoped for, The (EVIDENCE) of things NOT SEEN.
While it is true most only have a supposition they call FAITH , that is not to say all have just suppositions, some have Hard facts of the unseen GOD in their lives through Miricales that takes place in their lives. You must get your own proof, someone else's is not going to do it for you no one can . Even your belief in evolution lacks Hard facts and is (ONLY) a Theory as stated. While a theory can have some fact to it , it is seldom the whole story or it would not be a theory right? So until the last card is thrown on the table lets not make the final decision. Because creatures existed millions of years ago does (NOT) in itself rule out a creator GOD. IMO
peace ………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ May 23 2009,02:57) Stu………What your dictionary says FAITH means is (NOT) What Scriptures say it IS. And which came first your dictionary or our Scriptures. Dictionaries (ABRIDGE) and change with time to accept modern usage of languages, unfortunately that has happened with the word (Faith). Hebrews says..> Faith is the (substance) of things hoped for, The (EVIDENCE) of things NOT SEEN.
While it is true most only have a supposition they call FAITH , that is not to say all have just suppositions, some have Hard facts of the unseen GOD in their lives through Miricales that takes place in their lives. You must get your own proof, someone else's is not going to do it for you no one can . Even your belief in evolution lacks Hard facts and is (ONLY) a Theory as stated. While a theory can have some fact to it , it is seldom the whole story or it would not be a theory right? So until the last card is thrown on the table lets not make the final decision. Because creatures existed millions of years ago does (NOT) in itself rule out a creator GOD. IMO
peace ………………….gene
Gene,
Good post bro!
thinker
gene
Quote What your dictionary says FAITH means is (NOT) What Scriptures say it IS.
So we can make up whatever definitions we want and expect respect for them? That is the christian way, I know.Quote And which came first your dictionary or our Scriptures. Dictionaries (ABRIDGE) and change with time to accept modern usage of languages, unfortunately that has happened with the word (Faith).
Yes I know it is important to read scripture in the ORIGINAL ENGLISH!Quote Hebrews says..> Faith is the (substance) of things hoped for, The (EVIDENCE) of things NOT SEEN.
What an oxymoron that is. Tell your pharmacist that you prefer the evidence of things unseen and therefore will happily take any drug without it going through the full statutory testing regimes.Quote While it is true most only have a supposition they call FAITH , that is not to say all have just suppositions,
Yes they do, Completely and utterly EVERY expression of religious faith is a supposition. Claimed effects have a 1:1 correlation with the placebo effect. That does not disprove gods, but to make a claim of gods convincing you need evidence. Otherwise the psychological effect is the best explanation for the perception of religious experiences. There is already some good evidence for a genetic cause of devout belief. We already know how easy it is to fool people. I recommend reading / watching the work of Derren Brown to show just how easy it is for someone who knows what they are doing to manipulate human thinking. Add on our knowledge of how the brain MAKES UP a lot of what we claim to have witnessed just to get us through all the data constantly arriving in it, and I think you are on very thin ice making such bold claims for what you admit you cannot see.Quote some have Hard facts of the unseen GOD in their lives through Miricales that takes place in their lives.
They think they do. I think there is very good evidence for a better explanation for their claims.Quote You must get your own proof, someone else's is not going to do it for you no one can .
Oh please not more worthy prostyletising. Why should I spend time searching for something you claim is true when the evidence for it cannot be seen, cannot be articulated and is different for each of the 2.1 billion christians who believe it? That is a con act in any reasonable person’s book, and you are clearly deluded by it.Quote Even your belief in evolution lacks Hard facts and is (ONLY) a Theory as stated.
OK. Please can you promise me that you will show some integrity and REFUSE the modern antibiotics should you have the misfortune to end up with an infection of an EVOLVED bacterium, caught in hospital, that is resistant to penicillin because of the evolutionary selection pressures we put on bacteria? Please can you assure me that you will sell your car, and apologise to the purchaser with the caveat that cars are based on science that are ONLY THEORIES. You can give up your telephone too, because the movement of electrons through components seems to work, doesn’t it, but it is all JUST THEORIES.Quote While a theory can have some fact to it , it is seldom the whole story or it would not be a theory right?
How about you get back to us when you know something about what you are writing about.Quote So until the last card is thrown on the table lets not make the final decision. Because creatures existed millions of years ago does (NOT) in itself rule out a creator GOD. IMO
IMO you are wrong. Who is to say whose opinion is a more accurate reflection of natural history?Stuart
Quote (Gene @ May 22 2009,03:02) T8……….I tend to agree with Stu in His definition of true FAITH, requiring (EVIDENCE) , in my life that was the case, i was very sceptical of religions and needed my own personal proof which GOD has and still does give me. I can't give that to Stu or anyone not even my children. But scripture defines FAITH, as this, Faith is the substance of things Hoped for, the (EVIDENCE) of things NOT SEEN. No one has seen GOD at any time we are told, so in order to get the evidence, God must give it to us, and He does, at least He has to me. Paul said tell me this He that works Miracles among you dose He do it but works of law or by hearing of Faith. SO true faith does produce (EVIDENCE). I tried to explain that to Stu before but he simply can't accept it. Most of the time people mix up faith with suppositions, sadly, but there is real (PROOF) Available to those GOD is Calling. WE need to ask ourselves why would anyone expect you to believe them without PROOF> IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Well it does say the following which when you think about it is quite obvious.Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.But sure, we do live in a generation that is quite ignorant of such things, and when I think back, it was the proof that GOd gave me that made me believe. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have understood the concept that Romans 1:20 is talking of. I was very blind to God once.
Quote (Stu @ May 22 2009,07:13) t8 Quote if you believe in something with no proof and you trust that the belief is correct, then you have trust in a belief that has no proof.
What has proof got to do with it?Quote This is when it becomes a faith. A belief that you trust in.
How can you trust in a belief? Surely you trust the person who has provided the information. I have not personally done all the research for the science which I believe to be a good way of modeling the universe. I have trusted the integrity, professional reputations and their ethical contract with the rest of the population of the scientists that did the work. There are some experiments that I can repeat myself for verification but it is belief based on trust. It is not based on any faith. Faith is not respected. Evidence does the talking.Quote Have you ever heard someone say, have faith in me. What they are saying is to trust them.
That’s right. Actually when they say trust me, they are asking you to consider the evidence of their past trustworthiness, not take it on ‘faith’.Quote Faith is the confident belief or trust in a person, idea, or thing. For example, the word “faith” can refer to a religion.
That is not what my dictionary says in relation to religious faith. I think it is a pig-headed hope that things will be as the religio-political leaders have told them.Quote That is why I have a relationship with God and I belong to no denomination.
God only likes the Amish. You should have faith in what I tell you, for I have no evidence for it.Quote I am not interested in joining a belief system of any kind, including atheism or even a system that calls itself Christian.
How do you ‘join atheism’? That’s like joining a club for people who refuse to collect stamps. So you have invented your own belief system. Didn’t Jesus ask you to gather together with others of the same belief, in his name?Quote Systems and institutions are effective more at institutionalizing its adherents than producing questioning and seeking people who love the truth.
That is often very true, in many walks of life. I rather suspect the manner of you deciding what the truth is might be predicated on the contents of a book selected by an institution. Do you question that very often?Quote I prefer to live my faith. I am not interested in creating a belief that suits my desires or to use the truth as a form of life insurance that I submit to on Sunday only.
From that point of view you have an entirely consistent and respectable position I think. The problem with it is that you also spout creationism, which is made of lies and therefore something that obviously suits the desires of those who need it to be true. I’m not sure you have really thought through the implications of believing the lies of others on this point. Can you not develop a doctrine for yourself consistent with reality?Quote I consider the truth to be greater than my own self and reputation. So it is up to me to seek it and align with it. It is no more complicated than that. Atheism is one of many belief systems out there.
And atheism is only one single, negative, belief. Although it leads to a more positive view in my opinion. Just see how christianity brings out the worst in people! Me included…Stuart
Stu the answer is that you believe that God doesn't exist.
You also trust that belief that God doesn't exist.So I don't know how else to explain it to you but to say that you trust in a belief that has no evidence or proof.
Simple as that.
Quote (Gene @ May 23 2009,16:03) T8……….Amen to that. peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Amen to what?Stuart
Quote (t8 @ May 23 2009,14:37) Quote (Gene @ May 22 2009,03:02) T8……….I tend to agree with Stu in His definition of true FAITH, requiring (EVIDENCE) , in my life that was the case, i was very sceptical of religions and needed my own personal proof which GOD has and still does give me. I can't give that to Stu or anyone not even my children. But scripture defines FAITH, as this, Faith is the substance of things Hoped for, the (EVIDENCE) of things NOT SEEN. No one has seen GOD at any time we are told, so in order to get the evidence, God must give it to us, and He does, at least He has to me. Paul said tell me this He that works Miracles among you dose He do it but works of law or by hearing of Faith. SO true faith does produce (EVIDENCE). I tried to explain that to Stu before but he simply can't accept it. Most of the time people mix up faith with suppositions, sadly, but there is real (PROOF) Available to those GOD is Calling. WE need to ask ourselves why would anyone expect you to believe them without PROOF> IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Well it does say the following which when you think about it is quite obvious.Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.But sure, we do live in a generation that is quite ignorant of such things, and when I think back, it was the proof that GOd gave me that made me believe. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have understood the concept that Romans 1:20 is talking of. I was very blind to God once.
If it is the evidence of the unseen then you are still blind to god.Stuart
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