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To all that seek the truth,
I have a mystery that I would propose for you to think on. This mystery involves interpreting 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and some surrounding scriptures so I have included it for your use. It is also about the Garden of Eden.
1 Corinthians 15:50-54(NIV) reads:
Quote I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
Now that you have looked at the part of 1 Corinthians that relates to the mystery I will pose the mystery to you. Before Adam and Eve fell they were immortal. Therefore were their bodies fleshly or spiritual since their bodies were not perishable until after they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? As far as I know scripture does not directly answer this mystery though it seems reasonable to believe their bodies at that time were like the bodies we will have after the resurrection.
What is your answer to my direct question?
I have read from a source, since at that time the fountains of the deep didnt break yet, that there was 80 percent more earth than water. and that There was a second campus of water that was like a ice sheet over the atmosphere of the earth.
and that there was DOUBLE oxygen at that time as well.According to the source, that means that all living things were giants. Double oxygen gives alot of energy and growth.
Its also said that reptiles never stop growing, and that it would explain the things about the dinosaurs because double oxygen would let them become so massive.Anyways, its all theory though.
Its would make sense if you think abotu it, that instead of mankind becomeing larger, than in fact we are getting sicker, and shorter.
Dennison,
That is off topic as what I wanted to know is whether you think Adam and Eve were created with a body made of immortal flesh or that they had one made of immaterial flesh.
Even though it is off topic and I do not think it is important to the gospel of Jesus it does tickle my intellectual curiosity. I do know that tradition tells us that the Nephilim were giants and that seems to be born up by post flood scriptures linking giant sized men to them.
The fact that such giants lived after the flood makes the claim that the environment prior to the flood was responsible for them being giant seem weak at best. I also find it more reasonable to believe that the waters above were simply clouds and not a second sheet of water above the atmosphere.
Dinosaurs are birds or at least birdlike and were probably feathered and maybe even beaked as beaks may well fossilize to look like bone. Look at a dinosaur skull and a skull of a modern animal and notice the nose area is gone from the skull of modern animals. The beak part is a hypothesis that I have been unable to test but the feathered part is pretty well known. There may also be two types of dinosaurs and only one type being birds or at least birdlike. I seem to remember something like that was claimed at one time.
There were giant reptiles as well such as crocodiles of massive sizes.
I am not sure about the high oxygen claim as I have no idea what that claim is based on.
That is all mostly idle wondering and as far as I can tell does not affect the message of salvation in any way so I do not to spend much time on it.
They were not yet immortal
And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
I believe that God put two trees in the garden, the tree of life would have completed creation of an immortal body (like at the resurrection), but man chose to disobey, and in the process the bodies also fell (although if he had eat of the tree of life he would have still been immortal, but eternally lost).
My opinion – Wm
Kerwin…………I believe the potential was definitely there for man to live in his body for ever, or God would not have prevent Him from taking of the tree (that which produces from self) OF LIFE. the tree of Life may be a regenerative force that keep regenerating Life in the body it is in. I thing the idea of flesh and blood not being able to enter into the kingdom of GOD may have been relating to a Spiritual state of mind not sure though. Just speculation that is all.
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Kerwin,
Man has the same body now as the type of body Adam had.
I think that Dennison's post hit on part of your question when he talked about the ice layer in outer space. Man's body was immortal until he sinned which caused sin to enter into the cosmos eventually causing the waters in outer space to flood the earth.
Notice the longevity of the early fathers 800-969 years….this ice protected them from the harmful UV rays.
The change in the atmosphere along with contact with direct sunlight is a cause for many illnesses causing our bodies to die sooner.
Whatever happened to the life span of man being 120 years?
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 27 2010,11:17) Kerwin, Man has the same body now as the type of body Adam had.
I think that Dennison's post hit on part of your question when he talked about the ice layer in outer space. Man's body was immortal until he sinned which caused sin to enter into the cosmos eventually causing the waters in outer space to flood the earth.
Notice the longevity of the early fathers 800-969 years….this ice protected them from the harmful UV rays.
The change in the atmosphere along with contact with direct sunlight is a cause for many illnesses causing our bodies to die sooner.
Whatever happened to the life span of man being 120 years?
The Professor
DBFyou say; Man's body was immortal until he sinned
NO it was not immortal ,it had the potential to become immortal,
scriptures says that there was a tree of live and a tree of the knowledge ,unless Adam passed the test in time ,he could not eat of the tree of live.
Pierre
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 26 2010,22:17) Kerwin, Man has the same body now as the type of body Adam had.
I think that Dennison's post hit on part of your question when he talked about the ice layer in outer space. Man's body was immortal until he sinned which caused sin to enter into the cosmos eventually causing the waters in outer space to flood the earth.
Notice the longevity of the early fathers 800-969 years….this ice protected them from the harmful UV rays.
The change in the atmosphere along with contact with direct sunlight is a cause for many illnesses causing our bodies to die sooner.
Whatever happened to the life span of man being 120 years?
The Professor
Thanks! i was going to add that, but didnt get to it.
Yes this idea also leads to the fact taht the fountains of the deep broke open, and that waters from heaven broke and fell.This is also the first instance that it ever rained.
The bible also says that it never rained yet in the beggining of genesis.Kerwin: IF there is no rain, than we can safely assume that the enviroment was DIFFERENT. This is not off topic, this adds to the topic.
You want to know the anatomy of Adam and eve, or if they were motal or what not.
To know that, examine the enviroment.They lived in a very GOOD place until the days of Noah.
AFter the destruction of the flood, things were diffrent, peopel died faster. and since the fountains of the deep broke open, that left most of the earth covered in water, thats why noah had to wait longer after the flood ended, to finally land on somewhere.ANYWAYS the point is that Earth at one time was very awesome place. And if that was true than people lived longer, were stronger, faster.
Today, espeacily in America, we breath bad air. we know we need oxygen in the body. But the richer the Oxygen, the more energy we can produce. AS muscles contract oxygen, they produce more work, engery output.
So if we had double the oxygen, we coudl race aroudn the world withotu being tired.
And if we had double the oxygen we could grow and heal FASTER.WE have tanks in many universities and in europe that proved this idea, and have created tanks or rooms of double oxygen that are used for medically practices.
look it up, it actualy works.
here is another biblical proof. “There were giants” according to genesis iin those days.
why would moses write such a thing, unless he knew according to his stature that these people were exactly that Giants.
and giants existed after the flood as well.
Anyways we have giants today in our world as well, just fewer of them. and because of the lack in the enviroment to help them live, they often die young.
anyways most of this is true look it up.
but the ideas surruonding genesis story is all theory of course. I cant say thats BIBLICALY true. just a theory.on topic:
The Man Adam had a perfect body. He was in a sense perfect and sinless. Not a body that lacked anything. I do believe they had the same necessitates to eat and sleep, and even have sex to produce more children.The difference between them and us was i believe their enviroment, and the perfection within their bodies.
I mean think about, no achne, no wrinkles, no dandruff.
Its perfection to its fullest.for some reason we have the necsseity of the tree of life.
thats the extent of my knowledge in this matter, becuase the truth is we can never get back to that point.
beacuse we know in heaven, it will be different, we will never thirst again, or even cry.
there is no point to reproduce and what not.but for some reason we still eat of the tree of life.
Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.Revelation 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
To ALL…………> mans body was imortal at his creation, But he (ate) form the tree of Knowledge of Good and evil He started dying. “NOTICE WHAT IT SAY < " do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good ND EVIL, FOR IN THE DAY YOUR EAT OF IT YOU SHALL DIE. So they had eternal life befor they ate of the tree of good and evil it appears. IMO
peace and love……………………….gene
To whomever it may concern,
It seems that some individuals believe that Adam and Eve were not immortal before their fall and these people back up that conclusion by pointing to the existence of the Tree of Life.
It seems they conclude that there would be no reason for the Tree of Life to exist if Adam and Eve already were immortal. That is certainly a reasonable conjecture if you assume God does everything for a reason and did not know Adam and Eve would disobey him and eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Of course God did know as he is all knowing.
We also have Genesis 2:7 where God clearly states that those who eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil will die. Since God does not lie it follows that eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil will cause one to die. Satan applied it literally and thus deceptively in his temptation of Eve as the death does not immediately follow eating the fruit but it does result from eating the fruit even as God stated, Genesis 3:3-4. It is therefore obvious that what God meant is that the immortal would be transformed to the mortal and thus death would result as nature demanded of the mortal.
In addition God taught Adam that mankind could eat of any tree in the Garden but the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That means both Adam and Eve were free to eat of the tree of Life until after they fell. It is after their fall that it was banned to them and then only because mankind was not ready for it at that time. We though, have access to the Tree of Life through obedience to all the teaching of Jesus the King of everything in heaven and on earth.
Dennison,
If I understand you correctly your point is that man was immortal because of the environment. If that is what you are trying to state I must disagree though there may be some truth in what you say as sin effects the environment and all of creation was made a slave of corruption because of the sin of mankind, Romans 8:21.
Just as all of creation was made a slave of corruption by the sin of Adam and Eve so was their flesh which thus became mortal.
Now you mention that Scripture declares it had not rained in Genesis 2:5 that is at the latest speaking of the 6th day as man had not been created since he formed him in verse 7 of the same chapter. It also makes the point that no shrub or plant of the field had yet appeared because of the lack of rain even though God had designed them earlier and saw they would spread out the land. So if you are to extend the idea that there is no rain until the flood you would also have to say not shrub or plant of the field appeared on the earth or sprung up from it unless you cherry pick verse 5. In short you are making quite the jump to conclusions. Still, I believe this is one of those issues where ones opinion, even if flawed, is not relevant to their salvation.
As for the 120 years. God stated he was tired of fighting against the effects of sin in the lives of mankind. Since God does not get exhausted he obviously meant he was angered by fighting against the rebellious ways of mankind which caused the mortal flesh to decay at quicker rates. The life spans of several people after God stated that were longer than the 120 years he stated.
The Hebrew word is not giants. The Greek word used by those who translated into the Septuagint is. The Septuagint is the oldest know manuscript even though it is not the actually original language of scripture and Hebrew may well be. As I said giants are associated with the Hebrew word anyways.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 27 2010,11:13) Dennison, If I understand you correctly your point is that man was immortal because of the environment. If that is what you are trying to state I must disagree though there may be some truth in what you say as sin effects the environment and all of creation was made a slave of corruption because of the sin of mankind, Romans 8:21.
Just as all of creation was made a slave of corruption by the sin of Adam and Eve so was their flesh which thus became mortal.
Now you mention that Scripture declares it had not rained in Genesis 2:5 that is at the latest speaking of the 6th day as man had not been created since he formed him in verse 7 of the same chapter. It also makes the point that no shrub or plant of the field had yet appeared because of the lack of rain even though God had designed them earlier and saw they would spread out the land. So if you are to extend the idea that there is no rain until the flood you would also have to say not shrub or plant of the field appeared on the earth or sprung up from it unless you cherry pick verse 5. In short you are making quite the jump to conclusions. Still, I believe this is one of those issues where ones opinion, even if flawed, is not relevant to their salvation.
As for the 120 years. God stated he was tired of fighting against the effects of sin in the lives of mankind. Since God does not get exhausted he obviously meant he was angered by fighting against the rebellious ways of mankind which caused the mortal flesh to decay at quicker rates. The life spans of several people after God stated that were longer than the 120 years he stated.
The Hebrew word is not giants. The Greek word used by those who translated into the Septuagint is. The Septuagint is the oldest know manuscript even though it is not the actually original language of scripture and Hebrew may well be. As I said giants are associated with the Hebrew word anyways.
Kerwin,
Sorry as you know im usualy in a hurry and sometimes i dont explain my self enough or i just dont make any sense.well…such a small post to everything that i said….=(
i made many points, i wished you addressed them.Anyways most of what i said were conjectures that had some “biblical proof”
Which is better than others theorys that i have heard.
Anyways to address what you said.
No i believe man was Mortal beacuse they were depended on the enviroment.
They were immortal because of the Tree of Life, and because of God.
Once they died, and were without the full essence of God they became truely mortal.
I guess using mortal and immortal are not correct terms to use in this disciussion. i guess we could use eternal life and spiritual death would suit best.I said before that Man had perfect bodies because of the enviroment they lived in. God made a perfect enviroment, which an Perfect Adam can continue to be perfect as he harvests from the enviroment.
So exactly SOME conditions happen after the sin occured. but the envirment was not destroyed until the FLOOD.
So it was still good and peachy until than.
Now lets not get extrabiblical.
Im sticking to scriputre in this one.
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
We can assume up to that day it has not rained.
Nor does the bible concur that there was any other season that passed through out that time.The purpose of the seasons are DEATH. Spring becomes winter for the death and renewal of the enviroment and what not.
I dont believe this occured in the garden of Eden. IT was for a man to till the ground. And sounds there were fountains in the deep, who is to say since there was richer oxygen that we know oxygen is produced by plants also, that means if the oxygen is richer, than the plants were more powerful, who is to say that the roots didnt strech all the way into the earth into the fountains of the deep.
A conjecture of course, or for the man to water the darn plants. Who knows!the 120 years was caused right after the flood. if you think about it, there was nothign protecting them from the powerful sun. Its a huge SHRINK from living to 900 years to 120. God some how caused there life to shrink, so to make sure he just used the Sun.
Nephilum was used correct compared to Giants? i Guess the point is that the writer considered that there was a different type of peoples compared to his.
thats the logic behind this.Anyways hey its all conjecture.
Dennison,
If you go to Genesis 11:10-32 you will see that most of the generations of Shem mentioned including the last one lived over 120 years though their life spans were briefer than Noah’s and did get shorter as time went on. Eber was the last generation that exceeded 400 years the rest being slightly over 200 years in most cases. There was one exception and that was Nahor at 119 years but his son lives 205 years. In addition we know Haran was no more than 135 years old and probably less when he died as his father was at least 70 years old when he sired him and he died before his father, Tabor, who is the one that lived 205 years.
In my opinion sin causes us to age faster because it separated us from God who is life, Isaiah 59:1-2. Our very cells thus decay and grow weak so they cannot replace or repair themselves as we age. The Sun does damage our flesh but it is nothing God cannot repair if he was not separated from us. It is through faith in Jesus the Anointed that we are brought near to God once more. That is why Jesus is the life.
I did think I addressed the more critical points you made though perhaps I erred in my assessment. Feel free to point at those you feel I should do a better job addressing. In some cases I just assumed you were correct or while in some others I felt my answers negated the need to answer other points that were related.
You are correct that scripture leaves much unsaid about the environment and climate of the time before the flood and therefore I do not know whether seasons existed before the flood. Even today the existence of seasons and their types is related to the local climate. I do know that according to Romans 8:21 the world is subject to decay and that includes before the food. On the other hand it is plausible that the longer life spans indicate that the sins of man had not become as great and so the decay was less due to the wrath of God being less than it is today, Romans 1:18. I am also going to conclude that since mortality had entered the world it followed that a need for birth and renewal to replace that which died also existed though perhaps the cycle was longer than it is today in keeping with the longer life spans of the people of that time. That might have worked with a lower population level as well since people at best consumed plants which had to be replaced.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 27 2010,23:15) To whomever it may concern, It seems that some individuals believe that Adam and Eve were not immortal before their fall and these people back up that conclusion by pointing to the existence of the Tree of Life.
It seems they conclude that there would be no reason for the Tree of Life to exist if Adam and Eve already were immortal. That is certainly a reasonable conjecture if you assume God does everything for a reason and did not know Adam and Eve would disobey him and eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Of course God did know as he is all knowing.
We also have Genesis 2:7 where God clearly states that those who eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil will die. Since God does not lie it follows that eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil will cause one to die. Satan applied it literally and thus deceptively in his temptation of Eve as the death does not immediately follow eating the fruit but it does result from eating the fruit even as God stated, Genesis 3:3-4. It is therefore obvious that what God meant is that the immortal would be transformed to the mortal and thus death would result as nature demanded of the mortal.
In addition God taught Adam that mankind could eat of any tree in the Garden but the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That means both Adam and Eve were free to eat of the tree of Life until after they fell. It is after their fall that it was banned to them and then only because mankind was not ready for it at that time. We though, have access to the Tree of Life through obedience to all the teaching of Jesus the King of everything in heaven and on earth.
Kerwinwell said;Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Ge 3:23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been takenPierre
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 28 2010,00:15) To whomever it may concern, It seems that some individuals believe that Adam and Eve were not immortal before their fall and these people back up that conclusion by pointing to the existence of the Tree of Life.
It seems they conclude that there would be no reason for the Tree of Life to exist if Adam and Eve already were immortal. That is certainly a reasonable conjecture if you assume God does everything for a reason and did not know Adam and Eve would disobey him and eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Of course God did know as he is all knowing.
We also have Genesis 2:7 where God clearly states that those who eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil will die. Since God does not lie it follows that eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil will cause one to die. Satan applied it literally and thus deceptively in his temptation of Eve as the death does not immediately follow eating the fruit but it does result from eating the fruit even as God stated, Genesis 3:3-4. It is therefore obvious that what God meant is that the immortal would be transformed to the mortal and thus death would result as nature demanded of the mortal.
In addition God taught Adam that mankind could eat of any tree in the Garden but the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That means both Adam and Eve were free to eat of the tree of Life until after they fell. It is after their fall that it was banned to them and then only because mankind was not ready for it at that time. We though, have access to the Tree of Life through obedience to all the teaching of Jesus the King of everything in heaven and on earth.
Kerwin,There were two trees and two paths diverging from the midst of the Garden.
Our bodies were interdependent on which choice was made.
They chose “death and taxes”.
Ironic how they didn't eat of the tree of life, wasn't it? They were not prohibited to eat from this tree. However, after they ate of the tree of knowledge God removed them from the Garden and protected a path TO the tree of life. Later we will be directed to eat from this tree.
Rev 2:7 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'
We have an eternal spirit so why wouldn't God have given it an eternal body?
The Professor
kerwin! I go with the members here that say that Adam and Eve were not immortal. The Tree of Life is one reason and prove and another I believe that the Angels have been created immortal, and one third of them went along with Lucifer who became Satan. So because of them God wants to make sure that we obey Him, and if we don't, He then can destroy us in the Lake of Fire….There is no clear Scripture that I can see will prove so, but just IMO….Also in Genesis it says that Giants where on the Earth. What kind of an environment they needed to survive, I really don't know…If we look at Science and also see what kind of Animals they had, we do know that it had to be different and what it is today. Would they have been able to survive the way it is today? I don't think so…
Peace IreneHere is a quote from Tatian written in the second century that I thought would interest someone. Tatian says that man was made in the likeness of God and thus made to be immortal but changed to be mortal when man chose to disobey God and make the first angel God instead. He calls the first angel, the first begotten of the Logos. That first created angel chose to disobey God and became a demon and was separated from God.
Quote CHAPTER VII.—CONCERNING THE FALL OF MAN.
For the heavenly Logos, a spirit emanating from the Father and a Logos from the Logos-power, in imitation of the Father who begat Him made man an image of immortality, so that, as incorruption is with God, in like manner, man, sharing in a part of God, might have the immortal principle also. The Logos,440440 [Kaye’s rendering of this passage should be compared. See his Justin, p. 182.] too, before the creation of men, was the Framer of angels. And each of these two orders of creatures was made free to act as it pleased, not having the nature of good, which again is with God alone, but is brought to perfection in men through their freedom of choice, in order that the bad man may be justly punished, having become depraved through his own fault, but the just man be deservedly praised for his virtuous deeds, since in the exercise of his free choice he refrained from transgressing the will of God. Such is the constitution of things in reference to angels and men. And the power of the Logos, having in itself a faculty to foresee future events, not as fated, but as taking place by the choice of free agents, foretold from time to time the issues of things to come; it also became a forbidder of wickedness by means of prohibitions, and the encomiast of those who remained good. And, when men attached themselves to one who was more subtle than the rest, having regard to his being the first-born,441441 Gen. iii. 1 [First-born. ἄγγελος πρωτόγονος.] and declared him to be God, though he was resisting the law of God, then the power of the Logos excluded the beginner of the folly and his adherents from all fellowship with Himself. And so he who was made in the likeness of God, since the more powerful spirit is separated from him, becomes mortal; but that first-begotten one through his transgression and ignorance becomes a demon; and they who imitated him, that is his illusions, are become a host of demons, and through their freedom of choice have been given up to their own infatuation.Kathi, I know what it's like to read the Early Church Fathers, I remember what it was like, really, it was quite exciting.
The Eastern Orthodox who I learned a lot from, they follow all the writings and have quite a good analysis of them.
Kerwin,
Ya i basically agree.
ITs ok you dont have to respond to everything, i just dont know what it means when you dont respond. now I know.much love,
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