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Hi ED,
How does the conception in Mary have any relationship to the anointing of the Son?
Is it written or your opinion?
Hi Nick,
It is written…
1. “Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ” (Matthew 1:16)
2. “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.” (Luke 2:11)
3. “all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born” (Matt 2:4)Here are three verses for you to either ignore or attempt to change what is clearly being said: “Jesus was born the Christ”!
____________
God bless
Ed Jt8,
So Jesus had flesh and when he was anointed the Word became flesh as well, and so is that two fleshes or is it two in one flesh. i.e., Jesus the man and the Word inhabiting the same flesh?
Starting to sound a little like debating the Trinity now.
No more difficult to understand than the word be in the English language. According to Merriam-Websters online dictionary one meaning of “be” is “used to describe the qualities of a person or thing”. That is why the statement God is love does not mean God is the emotion of love but that it is his quality. The statement “The Word became flesh” means the Word gained the quality of flesh. In the same manner the words “the Word was God” means that the Word has the quality of God.
You know these things already but you have been taught to look at Scripture in another way.
Kerwin, my questioning is trying to narrow down these differences with how Nick understands things.
It has little to do with what I actually believe at this stage and more about the Word that was with God and was theos from his view. I am not asking these questions because I need to know the answer, although if I learn something new that would be helpful. I have already explained my stance on this in this site many times before and not worth repeating right now.
I am trying to determine from Nick the following:
- Did the Word come in the flesh or actually transform into flesh? Inhabit or change form/state?
- If it came in the flesh, then what exactly is the Word that it can be embodied? Is it Spirit or what?
- If it actually transformed into flesh, did it transform and share the flesh that Jesus already had and if so, does that mean Jesus and the Word inhabit the same flesh, two in one? A mere man like us in union with something divine from God perhaps?
- And if there are two in one flesh, (Jesus and the Word), does the Word still exist as non-flesh too or was it wholly transformed into the flesh of Jesus?
- And is Jesus the flesh, or soul, etc. I think he answered this one already.
I ask these questions because reading his posts often comes across as him saying that Jesus is a mere shell, but that shell became filled with the Word unlike us perhaps. It’s just not very clear exactly what he means to me. I think some read what he says and ignore it because they don’t know what he is saying.
In addition what these questions will hopefully uncover is if Nick thinks the Word that was with God was alive in its own right, is just a force of God, or is an extension of God like words which are not necessarily a force but an expression of oneself meaning it is part of God, but not wholly God .
Hi t8,
The Word was infilled into the flesh man Jesus of Nazareth.
The Word is the Spirit of Christ-spirit of Spirit..
The man became one with the Word.
The Word became flesh.
There is no suggestion that the Word was thence outside of Jesus Christ
Hi t8,
My derivations.
The Spirit of Christ is the Word.
The Word which was God became a separate entity within the Spirit of God.
The role of the Spirit of Christ is to serve and worship God-the Spirit of the Son, the servant Spirit.
Sorry I posted this under the Admin ID.
Here it is again. But it appears to you may have already responded to it.
Okay, so when the Word inhabited the body (tent) of Jesus Christ, then Jesus own Spirit cohabited the flesh with the Word?
If so, then does Jesus own spirit still resides in his body or was it replaced by the Word?
There is no suggestion that the Word was thence outside of Jesus Christ
The Word was with God was not Jesus, however, the Word became flesh, so the Word is now Jesus Christ (wholly) who is with God now.
Is that a good summation?
So what happened to the old Jesus. Was he overtaken by the Word? Did he die and not come back to life? Where is he?
If the old Jesus is still alive, is he co-existing with the Word or was he replaced?
Hi T8,
The OLD Jesus?
Are you a soul? You have said we are souls many times here.
Did you think Jesus was different to us?
What happened to his body?
Since we follow him I suggest the same as happens with our old bodies.
Hi T8,
Jesus the man lives by the eternal Spirit.
His soul harbours the Word.
One with the Father and the brothers-physically alive or dead- in the Spirit.
God has restored the kingdom using mere men and such men partake in the reward.
Hi t8,
Dan 7
.13
I kept looking in the night visions and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man was coming
and he came up to the Ancient of days and was presented before Him.
And to him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom.
A mere son of man honoured by God.
The Spirit of Christ is of the Spirit of God.
So you say that the spirit of Christ is of the spirit of God and that this spirit of God resides in the soul of Jesus.
So Jesus has two spirits inside his soul. The spirit of God (his Father) and the spirit of Christ (the Word).
John said this:
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
Clearly we see that the Spirit of God communes with our spirit too.
What is our spirit? Is it also the Word?
Or is the Word wholly inside the soul of Christ now? I think you already answered yes to that last question.
If you have answered yes, then the Logos is no longer part of God?
Hi t8,
“So you say that the spirit of Christ is of the spirit of God and that this spirit of God resides in the soul of Jesus.
So Jesus has two spirits inside his soul. The spirit of God (his Father) and the spirit of Christ (the Word).”
The words of Jesus and Paul clarify that there is one Spirit.
Jesus takes care to avoid confusion by speaking of two counsellors, not two Spirits. in jn 14-16
We should too.
“Clearly we see that the Spirit of God communes with our spirit too.
What is our spirit? Is it also the Word?”
If you are alive to have your own spirit.
Only when you die and your own spirit returns to God will you be like Jesus and the apostles and prophets, alive only in the Holy Spirit.
If you are reborn from above the Word and the Father abide, just as as an earnest, now in you. Your spirit is not the Word.
“Or is the Word wholly inside the soul of Christ now? I think you already answered yes to that last question.
If you have answered yes, then the Logos is no longer part of God?”
The Spirit of Christ is shared with all in Christ making them one in his Body.
“Or is the Word wholly inside the soul of Christ now? I think you already answered yes to that last question.
If you have answered yes, then the Logos is no longer part of God?”
The Word was God. The Word is not God.
Now the Word is in Spiritual unity with God in the same way as we can be.
Thanks for clarifying your views.
While I probably agree with much of it, there are still things that I cannot prove by scripture as yet and so some speculation resides when joining the dots.
I would now like to take a look at another view written back in the second century on this same subject. The conclusion seems different to yours. The main difference is that you say that The Word was with God is not Jesus Christ. Granted that he had not been born as a man yet and given that name, the point is that you do not believe that the Word was alive as another with God while these following explanations do. So for now that is probably the main point I would like to investigate now. You probably have read some of these before, and I remember that you posted years back about how these second-century apostles were led astray and failed us, so that is probably still your stance. But for the sake of testing all things and knowing that they had a better grasp of the language being used, I would like to add this to draw out the differences with you and with the view that the Word is Jesus before he came as a man. Or to put it another way, Jesus come in the flesh.
Tatian (165 A.D)
God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Word. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary basis of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone, but inasmuch as He was all powerful, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Word-power, the Word himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him. I myself, for instance, speak [words], and you hear, yet, certainly, I who converse do not become destitute of my word, by the transmission of speech, but by the utterance of my voice I endeavour to reduce to order the unarranged matter in your minds. And as the Word begotten in the beginning, begat in turn our world, having first created for himself the necessary matter, so also I, in imitation of the Word, being begotten again, and having become possessed of the truth, am trying to reduce to order the confused matter which is kindred with myself. For matter is not, like God, without beginning, nor, as having no beginning, is of equal power with God, it is begotten, and not produced by any other being, but brought into existence by the Framer of all things alone (Address to the Greeks, 5).
Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 175 A.D)
God made all things out of nothing, for nothing was coexisting with God, but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known, for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy, but He that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by him He made all things. He [the Word] is called “the Beginning” [arche],1 because he rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and arche, and wisdom, and Power of The Highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in him, and His holy Word which was always present with him.
Irenaeus (ca. 185 A.D)
And therefore One God, the Father is declared, who is above all, and through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ. But the Word is through all things, and is himself the head of the church, and the Spirit is in us all, and he is the living water, that the Lord grants to those who rightly believe in him, and love him, and who know that “there is one Father, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.” (Book V, 18).
Then in the 200s we start to see the foundations for the Trinity Doctrine we know today.
Tertullian (early 200’s)
Christ… the Power of God, and the Spirit of God, as the Word, the Reason, the Wisdom, and the Son of God. (Apology, 23).
We have already declared that God made the world, and all which it contains, by His Word, and Reason, and Power. It is abundantly plain that your philosophers, too, regard the Logos, that is, the Word and Reason, as the Creator of the universe…And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has inbeing to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that he proceeds forth from God, and in that procession he is generated [ begotten], so that he is the Son of God, and is called “God” from unity of substance with God. For God, too, is Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass, the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun–there is no division of substance, but merely an extension. Thus Christ is spirit of the Spirit, and god of the God, as light of Light is kindled. The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once “God” and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as he is Spirit of the Spirit and God of the God, He is made second in manner of existence, in position, not in nature, and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in his birth God and man united. Apology, 21).
Notice that Tertullian says that Jesus is spirit of spirit which is what you also say.
Is it possible that innocent speculation as teaching leads to doctrines unforeseen later on?
Okay just quickly, I would like to point out similarities that seem to point to Jesus as being the Word that was with God in the beginning which you do not believe yourself.
- God created all things through his Word. He did the same thing through his son Jesus Christ. Coincidence?
- Jesus is called the Word of God in Revelation. While it doesn’t prove he was the Word that was with God, it does fit that hypothesis.
- We are told that Jesus existed in the form of God (spirit?) before coming in the flesh and that he is now at the right-hand of God, in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos began.
- We are told that the Word became flesh (John 1-3) and that Jesus also came in the flesh, see 1 John 4:2.
- If every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, then who was Jesus before he came in the flesh? Perhaps the Word?
Talking about the last point, that is the one I want to discuss now because it is the most serious one.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh?
Do you believe that the Word became flesh?
If God made everything through his Word (John 1-3) and he made everything through Jesus Christ his son, (Hebrews 1:2) then why is Jesus not the Word that was with God? Further, this seems to be the view of the next generation after Jesus and the apostles, but you beg to differ.
I guess an expected reply from you would be that you disagree that Jesus was the Word that was with God in the beginning. I would like confirmation of this, so I know it is your view. Otherwise you might need to clarify further as I haven’t quite understood your view then.
t8,
Nick has a different understanding of at least some of the verses that you choose to use your understanding of them as evidence. That means he views your arguments as flawed.
1 Timothy 2:5-6Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
How do you understand this verse?
I hear that the human being named Jesus Christ is the only one the mediates between God and humanity. I also hear he is the same one who gave himself as a ransom for the whole world and that fact will be testified in due time.
Hi t8.
“Okay just quickly, I would like to point out similarities that seem to point to Jesus as being the Word that was with God in the beginning which you do not believe yourself.
God created all things through his Word. He did the same thing through his son Jesus Christ. Coincidence?Jesus is called the Word of God in Revelation. While it doesn’t prove he was the Word that was with God, it does fit that hypothesis.We are told that Jesus existed in the form of God (spirit?) before coming in the flesh and that he is now at the right-hand of God, in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos began.We are told that the Word became flesh (John 1-3) and that Jesus also came in the flesh, see 1 John 4:2.If every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, then who was Jesus before he came in the flesh? Perhaps the Word?
Talking about the last point, that is the one I want to discuss now because it is the most serious one.Do you believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh?
Do you believe that the Word became flesh?
If God made everything through his Word (John 1-3) and he made everything through Jesus Christ his son, (Hebrews 1:2) then why is Jesus not the Word that was with God? Further, this seems to be the view of the next generation after Jesus and the apostles, but you beg to differ.
I guess an expected reply from you would be that you disagree that Jesus was the Word that was with God in the beginning. I would like confirmation of this, so I know it is your view. Otherwise you might need to clarify further as I haven’t quite understood your view then.”
The first questions to be answered are
Do you believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh? YES
Do you believe that the Word became flesh? YES
It is about spiritual language.
You say
“Jesus is called the Word of God in Revelation. ”
WHERE?
Be accurate. On his thigh the words are written
“We are told that Jesus existed in the form of God (spirit?”
WHERE?
It does say CHRIST JESUS- the anointing is the difference.
If you do not understand that the anointing from above is the important feature you will always read into scripture that a man from earth did these things
Acts 2.22 makes clear that any supernatural activity done by Jesus is by the SPIRIT in him.
It also clarifies in at least 3 places that Jesus was a man, and not some sort of demigod.
Jesus Christ is now the Word by anointing, but a man was not God or with God in the beginning.
The glory belongs to God.
The key is to understand
” JESUS CHRIST is the same yesterday , today and forever”
God’s view is prophetic and retrospective.
The words of God does not submit to the rules of logic that men are guided by.
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