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All,
It is good to see the responses here and how you all “feel” versus “know” about the Holy Spirit:
Mike says “it” is inanimate because it is like casa in Spanish. See for yourself:
Act 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to LIE TO the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
Eph 4:30 Do not GRIEVE the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Psa 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
1Cr 2:11(b) Even so the THOUGHTS of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
Whoa there Professor! Were those pot shots at us?
Tell me what you KNOW about the holy spirit. The word also means “breath”, so is every breath a MAN takes in HIS whole life a “FEMININE” breath? Come on, now…….don't we have bigger fish to fry with these non-preexisters and trinitarians here?
I never said the holy spirit was an inanimate object, and for you to suggest that IS what I said is a misrepresentation. You should probably correct that statement, sir.
You bring up Acts 5, but you didn't list the rest of the story.
3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.“
9Peter said to her, “How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”
By lying to God's Spirit, they had at the very same time lied directly to God Himself, for God's Spirit is a part OF Him. It would be like saying, “I lied to God's EARS”. By lying to His EARS, I am also lying to Him.
God's Spirit is not a separate entity from God. And the scriptures that say “Jesus was led by the spirit…..” and other similar things simply mean that God led Jesus BY MEANS of His Spirit.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,19:28) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 30 2010,16:31) hi Mike it says that ADAM was created to the image of God not Eve ,Eve was taken out of Adam ,fallowing this logic so to speak God must be masculine, an spirit masculine?
Hi Pierre,You are correct, but it also says,
Genesis 1:27 NIV
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.And I don't know if you noticed or not, but I'm with you on this one. I think the “gender” of God is a moot subject. Does it have any bearing on scripture at all? God is always referred to as a “He”, and His Son who was the exact representation of Him was a male, so why try to make something out of nothing?
At least that's how I feel, and have rejected David's pm invites and stayed away from this topic for, like you, I think it is pure silliness and unimportant.
I refuse to write David off as a “crackpot” however, for he does know scripture and understands much of it the same way that you and I do, Pierre.
My point was to make clear that his notion of God being a he/she doesn't hold water based only on the gender of certain words and that one scripture I posted above. There are gaping holes in both “proofs” that he presents.
I agree with you that it is not a topic that I'm interested in discussing, for I think it is frivolous.
That being said, you make a great point about the angels and the fact that the different sexes in earthly creatures are mainly (maybe ONLY) for reproductive purposes.
peace and love,
mike
Mikeyou quoted ;Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule…..
Ge 2:18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
Ge 2:21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the place with flesh.
Ge 2:22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
Ge 2:23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man…if this account of Adam and Eve creation is true ,the conclusion is that God created them both but not the same way, and Adam first out of the ground and Eve out of Adam rib, so Eve is made to the likeness of Adam NOT GOD.
Pierre
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 30 2010,20:44) All, It is good to see the responses here and how you all “feel” versus “know” about the Holy Spirit:
Mike says “it” is inanimate because it is like casa in Spanish. See for yourself:
Act 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to LIE TO the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
Eph 4:30 Do not GRIEVE the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Psa 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
1Cr 2:11(b) Even so the THOUGHTS of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
Hi Professor,You make note of the Holy Spirit being grieved and is that supposed to show us that the Holy Spirit is a separate person.
Look what is said about human spirit:
Ps 77:3-6
3 When I remember God, then I am disturbed; When I sigh, then my spirit grows faint. Selah.
4 You have held my eyelids open; I am so troubled that I cannot speak.
5 I have considered the days of old, The years of long ago.
6 I will remember my song in the night; I will meditate with my heart, And my spirit ponders:
NASUPs 142:3
3 When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, You knew my path. In the way where I walk They have hidden a trap for me.
NASUProv 16:32
32 He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, And he who rules his spirit , than he who captures a city.
NASU1 Kings 21:5
5 But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said unto him, Why is thy spirit so sad , that thou eatest no bread?
KJVJob 21:4
4 As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled?
KJVJob 32:18
18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.
KJVPs 143:4
4 Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart within me is desolate.
KJVProv 18:14
14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?
KJVAll these passages have to do with the spirit within man. No way are these spirits separate persons, nor are they female essences of the person.
Our spirit can be grieved, ruled over, troubled, etc. That doesn't mean that our spirit is a separate person or a female essence.
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2010,14:55) if this account of Adam and Eve creation is true ,the conclusion is that God created them both but not the same way, and Adam first out of the ground and Eve out of Adam rib, so Eve is made to the likeness of Adam NOT GOD.
Hi Pierre,I know the story, and I believe it. I have recently found out that the “rib” mentioned more likely meant “a part of Adam's side”, but that is neither here nor there.
I'm with you on this one, I just was explaining the verse David quoted to me as HIS proof that God was a he/she.
In fact, here's how NETBible translates it,
NET © God created humankind 1 in his own image, in the image of God he created them, 2 male and female he created them. 3
The footnotes are as follows:
Gen 1:27 Footnote #1
The Hebrew text has the article prefixed to the noun (הָאָדָם, ha’adam). The article does not distinguish man from woman here (“the man” as opposed to “the woman”), but rather indicates previous reference (see v. 26, where the noun appears without the article). It has the same function as English “the aforementioned.”Gen 1:27 Footnote #2
The third person suffix on the particle אֵת (’et) is singular here, but collective.Gen 1:27 Footnote #3
The distinction of “humankind” as “male” and “female” is another point of separation in God’s creation. There is no possibility that the verse is teaching that humans were first androgynous (having both male and female physical characteristics) and afterward were separated. The mention of male and female prepares for the blessing to follow.I agree with their translation and think their reasonings make perfect sence and align with the rest of scripture in this case.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2010,23:04) Our spirit can be grieved, ruled over, troubled, etc. That doesn't mean that our spirit is a separate person or a female essence.
Kathi,Are you not comprised of spirit and body? When you die will your body go to heaven to be judged?
Why does Paul say that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak? Are two entities not battling within the one body? I think your church fathers would call them soul and spirit?
1Cr 2:11(a) For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
Gen 2:22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken FROM the man, and brought her to the man.
Amazing, from a “Man” came the first “Woman”. Who said that we don't have the two essences within us? Or is this just figurative?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,22:33) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2010,14:55) if this account of Adam and Eve creation is true ,the conclusion is that God created them both but not the same way, and Adam first out of the ground and Eve out of Adam rib, so Eve is made to the likeness of Adam NOT GOD.
Hi Pierre,I know the story, and I believe it. I have recently found out that the “rib” mentioned more likely meant “a part of Adam's side”, but that is neither here nor there.
I'm with you on this one, I just was explaining the verse David quoted to me as HIS proof that God was a he/she.
In fact, here's how NETBible translates it,
NET © God created humankind 1 in his own image, in the image of God he created them, 2 male and female he created them. 3
The footnotes are as follows:
Gen 1:27 Footnote #1
The Hebrew text has the article prefixed to the noun (הָאָדָם, ha’adam). The article does not distinguish man from woman here (“the man” as opposed to “the woman”), but rather indicates previous reference (see v. 26, where the noun appears without the article). It has the same function as English “the aforementioned.”Gen 1:27 Footnote #2
The third person suffix on the particle אֵת (’et) is singular here, but collective.Gen 1:27 Footnote #3
The distinction of “humankind” as “male” and “female” is another point of separation in God’s creation. There is no possibility that the verse is teaching that humans were first androgynous (having both male and female physical characteristics) and afterward were separated. The mention of male and female prepares for the blessing to follow.I agree with their translation and think their reasonings make perfect sence and align with the rest of scripture in this case.
peace and love,
mike
hi mike1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,23:33) Gen 1:27 Footnote #3
The distinction of “humankind” as “male” and “female” is another point of separation in God’s creation. There is no possibility that the verse is teaching that humans were first androgynous (having both male and female physical characteristics) and afterward were separated. The mention of male and female prepares for the blessing to follow.[/color]
Mike,I would normally agree that mankind is not androgynous. That is not the “norm” and when it occurs it is called a freak of nature.
However, it is funny that God created Woman FROM Man from something “inside” him and not anything different.
But, you are missing the point in Gen 1:26 and 27.
v26:
God (Elohim) SAID = who is speaking? Elohim, not YHWH or Spirit.
Let US = how many “people”? Minimum two.
make Man in our image AND our likeness = God's purpose in creating Manv27
and Elohim did make Man in His image = male and femaleAs you pointed out Mike, this verse is not indicating that Elohim made ONE man to be both male and female but that mankind is to consist of both male and female.
The point being missed is that Elohim consists of Male and Female…and that there are two essences actively engaged as seen in the command, “Let US make Man in our image”….and He did.
Also, do you realize the magnitude of this conversation? It is between the two essences of Elohim!!! Wow! Every other time we read, “Elohim said” and then it happened. Here Elohim said, “Let US……” showing that it was a joint effort.
So, the TRUTH to be found in these Scriptures is that God consists of two essences called male and female and we were created in His image…that is why we are like how we are. We are like God, He is not like us. Why ignore the wonderful information given to us about God?
The living creatures came from the sea and earth and only one is made in the image of God, MAN….awesome.
v28
And God blessed THEM; obviously two people and NOT one.Kathi,
I forgot to congratulate you on the wonderful Scriptures. All of these point to the fact that we are not just flesh and bones but also consist of “spirit” that dwells within us.
The body is mortal and spirit is immortal.
YHWH is physical and dwelt with Mankind for some time on the Earth. He nows resides in Heaven and sits on a throne as a King or works in a temple as a Priest.
Did you notice the steps that were taken in the operation of Adam to produce Eve? Put him to sleep (anesthesia), cut him (incision), removed the rib (side) and then closed him up (sutures), and he awoke. Just like our doctors do today.
Also, was there anything additional needed to produce Eve, other than what existed in Adam?
Maybe some day our doctors will find that special, magic ingredient and clone it?
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 31 2010,12:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2010,23:04) Our spirit can be grieved, ruled over, troubled, etc. That doesn't mean that our spirit is a separate person or a female essence.
Kathi,Are you not comprised of spirit and body? When you die will your body go to heaven to be judged?
Why does Paul say that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak? Are two entities not battling within the one body? I think your church fathers would call them soul and spirit?
1Cr 2:11(a) For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
Gen 2:22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken FROM the man, and brought her to the man.
Amazing, from a “Man” came the first “Woman”. Who said that we don't have the two essences within us? Or is this just figurative?
David,
You mentioned the phrase, “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak,” that would be two natures, not two personsI see the person as having three parts, body, soul and spirit. The spirit is just a part of the one person. I believe that is the same way with the Father, His Spirit is just a part of the one person of the Father which has the unique and supernatural ability to extend from Him while remaining unseparated from Him.
The Holy Spirit and the Father are not two persons of one deity. The Holy Spirit is part of the one true God…the Father.
In other words, just because it grieves and knows the thoughts, does not make it a person. It/He knows the thoughts of God and so does our spirit within us know the thoughts of each of us. My spirit knows my thoughts, I can't keep my thoughts hidden from the spirit part of me. Not because my spirit is another person besides me but because it is a part of me.
When I die, my body will become a heavenly body and I believe that I will be body, soul, and spirit again. The spirit is part of me.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2010,17:13) David the Professor, I am not sure what those who believe that the Holy Spirit is God would conclude but it does seem to create a conundrum where God in one aspect is female. Of course I have heard a neuter noun and mescaline noun form of the word spirit are used in Common Greek translations of the New Testament as well as the feminine noun form that is also used in the Hebrew Old Testament versions. That would also play a part.
I did not catch where you stated that the information was not to promote salvation but I am glad to hear you say that.
I am sure “Elohim” does not specifically mean God though according to the context it is used in, it could be a synonym for God. I believe it would be closer to meaning “heavenly host” or “deities” though even those may not be exact matches.
I believe YHWH Elohim” probably means YHWH of the heavenly hosts in Genesis 2:5. It is similar of saying “God of gods“ though knowing the Hebrews, God is most likely a descriptive as well as proper name.. I am not sure though if that is what you understand.
Hello Kerwin,Now that you have found out that the Holy Spirit is Feminine:
If someone says that the Holy Spirit is God, the FATHER, would you now agree?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2010,14:14) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 31 2010,12:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2010,23:04) Our spirit can be grieved, ruled over, troubled, etc. That doesn't mean that our spirit is a separate person or a female essence.
Kathi,Are you not comprised of spirit and body? When you die will your body go to heaven to be judged?
Why does Paul say that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak? Are two entities not battling within the one body? I think your church fathers would call them soul and spirit?
1Cr 2:11(a) For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
Gen 2:22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken FROM the man, and brought her to the man.
Amazing, from a “Man” came the first “Woman”. Who said that we don't have the two essences within us? Or is this just figurative?
David,
You mentioned the phrase, “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak,” that would be two natures, not two personsI see the person as having three parts, body, soul and spirit. The spirit is just a part of the one person. I believe that is the same way with the Father, His Spirit is just a part of the one person of the Father which has the unique and supernatural ability to extend from Him while remaining unseparated from Him.
The Holy Spirit and the Father are not two persons of one deity. The Holy Spirit is part of the one true God…the Father.
In other words, just because it grieves and knows the thoughts, does not make it a person. It/He knows the thoughts of God and so does our spirit within us know the thoughts of each of us. My spirit knows my thoughts, I can't keep my thoughts hidden from the spirit part of me. Not because my spirit is another person besides me but because it is a part of me.
When I die, my body will become a heavenly body and I believe that I will be body, soul, and spirit again. The spirit is part of me.
Kathi,I didn't say they were two persons. Body (temporal) and spirit (eternal) are two “essences” within the ONE person. Which I think would be your two “natures”. Since each person has a “heart” that would correspond to your “soul”. Or as you would say, each person consists of body, soul and spirit, no?
Knowing and feeling is an action of a satient being. I only showed a few Scriptures showing that the Holy Spirit is a satient being….and not a “tool” of YHWH. However, you've discarded the Holy Spirit as a function or by-product of YHWH the Father. So, it wouldn't really matter how many dozens of Scriptures I could show you because the results would be the same; they belong to YHWH not to Spirit, according to you.
Gen 1:1 is where Elohim created the heavens and earth. Elohim is translated as “God. However, it would be best left untranslated to show Elohim as the entity with the two essences; YHWH and Spirit.
Gen 1:2 is the first time that Ruwach Elohim (Spirit God) is mentioned in the Bible and is a separate “person” from YHWH Elohim that is mentioned in Gen 2:4.
As Kerwin's study pointed out, Ruwach Elohim (Spirit God) is not Elohim but a part of Elohim.
And consequently, YHWH Elohim is not Elohim but a part of Elohim.
Kathi,
You said, “The Holy Spirit and the Father are not two persons of one deity. The Holy Spirit is part of the one true God…the Father.”
I assume that your “one true God….the Father” is YHWH? (If not, what is the Father's name?) So, I'll address the following to this concept:
As I've been trying to show you Elohim is “God” and is shown in the first verse of Scripture:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.
YHWH is part of Elohim and we see His beginnings in Gen 2:4 as YHWH Elohim.
Spirit Elohim is part of Elohim and is seen in Gen 1:2.
These two “essences” comprise Elohim. Just as Elohim is comprised of male and female.
Gen 1:27 God (Elohim) created man in His own image, in the image of God (Elohim) He created him; male and female He created them.
Gen 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
God is one God, but is united. Man is one flesh, but is united.
I think what David is trying to do is clear up some mess.
Even though most of ya agree but are just repeating the same thing.David is saying that if you realize that when Spirit is used as a femanine word in Hebrew than it would be
a faulty to assume that the Spirit is Father when father is for a male role.Even if gender really does not play into anything, the fact that Spirit in Hebrew is feminine corrects small fallacies in
theology,Therefore to say that the holy spirit is the Father would be strange when in hebrew its expressed as something femine compared to Elohim
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2010,05:21) hi mike 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve
Pierre
Yes Pierre,Just like Genesis says. I KNOW that Adam came first…………are you not understanding me?
I keep trying to explain that I understand it the same way as you do, and that I listed the 1:27 verse ONLY to show you the verse that DAVID offered as proof that God is a he/she.I DO NOT AGREE WITH HIM! I understand the creation of the first two human beings EXACTLY AS YOU DO Pierre.
Do you now understand that I have NOT claimed anything at all that is in opposition to what you have been saying?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (davidbfun @ Sep. 01 2010,05:35) v26:
God (Elohim) SAID = who is speaking? Elohim, not YHWH or Spirit.
Let US = how many “people”? Minimum two.
make Man in our image AND our likeness = God's purpose in creating Man
Hi David,I don't know how you came to the conclusions you have from any scripture.
First, “Elohim”, “YHVH”, and “the holy spirit” are all the same person here. Why do you separate them? Listen:
“The President of the USA”, “Barack Obama”, “the spirit of Barack Obama”.
There are not 3 different persons listed here, are there? “Elohim” is the title of the One who created everything. “YHVH” is this Creator's personal name. And the holy spirit is a part of this Creator, not a separate entity.
Do you understand this?
mike
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 01 2010,05:35) v27
and Elohim did make Man in His image = male and female
David,Elohim/God/Jehovah/Creator created the MAN, ADAM first. He then created Eve.
Verse 27 does NOT say he made THE man, Adam both male and female. It says that He made MANKIND in general male and female.
mike
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 01 2010,05:35) The point being missed is that Elohim consists of Male and Female…and that there are two essences actively engaged as seen in the command, “Let US make Man in our image”….and He did.
No! No! No!Scripture NEVER implies that Jehovah consists of both male and female………EVER!
The “Let US” is Jehovah talking to His Son, who we know from scripture was the one whom everything that is was created THROUGH. Jesus had a big hand in the creation……don't you think it makes sense that God was simply talking to him?
Look David……..you've been asking me, and I finally jumped into the conversation about God being a he/she. But you are totally ignoring the points that both Kathi and I are making in favor of spouting more of your unsubstantiated nonsense here.
Let's start with this one that you missed:
Since the Hebrew word for spirit also means “breath”, are you saying that every breath that a MAN takes in HIS entire life is a “feminine” breath?
Please address the points being made to you as we address the ones you are making.
peace and love,
mike
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