- This topic is empty.
- Posts
- 942767,Jan. wrote:
[/quote]
Quote Hi Asher: Relative to the Tefilin, the question is, did Jesus wear one? He is our example of how we should live our lives as born again Christians.
Yeshua was raised in Galilee, history shows that it was a predominantly Hasidic and Pharisaic community, the scriptures tell us that Mirium and Yosef raised Yeshua in the traditions of their forefathers. It is Oral Torah, that states one should keep the customs of their lineage. Yeshua debated with Rabbis in the same way that they debated eachother even to this day. Yeshua's doctrine was identical to that of Hasidic and the Pharisaic School of Hillel. It is most interesting to see that Hillel Pharisee and Hasidic Judaism, was identical to Yeshua's doctrine. There is plenty evidence in Oral Torah, in Talmud, in plenty Rabbinic writings all throughout history, that Yeshua was in line with their teachings of Torah observance. There would be no reason to believe that he did not wear tzitzit, teffilin, and perform the rest of all 613 mitzvot. The people would not have believed he was the Messiah if he was not teaching Torah and living it to the fullest. Also the prophecies state that the Messiah will teach Torah, yet Yeshua told us to observe and do whatever they (the Pharisees) teach us to do. They taught Oral Torah. Today, Rabbinic Judaism is basically exactly the same as Pharisaic Judaism. There is very little deviation.
There is nothing wrong with the Oral Torah, it actually ties everything in such a way that is amazing. The Oral Torah has so many interesting things that reveal Yeshua as being the Messiah.
Quote
The place where these commandments need to be is in our hearts.But what about our hand and between our eyes and our door posts?
Quote Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. And our God has said that he would write them on the tables our heart.
Love in Christ,
MartyPsalms, it is interesting that you quote Psalms. Most of Psalms reveals many things about the Torah and its eternal relevance.
What happens when something is in the heart? Should it not compell a person to put that which is in their heart into action?
Shalom akhi,
ashashermoshehthreepointonefour,
The Rabbis consider the Oral Torah as an interpretive tradition. The Karaite tradition disregards it completely.
It seems you disagree with both so what tradition are you from?
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 15 2010,16:49) Quote ashermoshehthreepointonefour, The Rabbis consider the Oral Torah as an interpretive tradition. The Karaite tradition disregards it completely.
It seems you disagree with both so what tradition are you from?
The Oral Torah is only interpretive tradition in terms of Rabbinic deliberation of halacha and in terms of teaching. But the Oral Torah itself is not and interpretation, although the Oral Torah in certain cases is interpreted.
The Karaite Judaism does not accept the Oral Torah, only the Written. What it leaves is very little leniency where as Rabbinic Judaism allows for a wide spectrum of leniency to stringency.
I guess you could say Im a Chasidic Netzari Jew
Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 15 2010,20:35) kerwin,Jan. wrote:[/quote]
Quote ashermoshehthreepointonefour, The Rabbis consider the Oral Torah as an interpretive tradition. The Karaite tradition disregards it completely.
It seems you disagree with both so what tradition are you from?
The Oral Torah is only interpretive tradition in terms of Rabbinic deliberation of halacha and in terms of teaching. But the Oral Torah itself is not and interpretation, although the Oral Torah in certain cases is interpreted.
The Karaite Judaism does not accept the Oral Torah, only the Written. What it leaves is very little leniency where as Rabbinic Judaism allows for a wide spectrum of leniency to stringency.
I guess you could say Im a Chasidic Netzari Jew
Interesting! I have to do more research on what the Rabbi's mean by interpretive tradition as it is my assumption that meant they were interpreting the law. That in itself is not bad as long as it is the Spirit of God that directs that interpretation. I go by the tzaddik Jesus' interpretation myself. He disagreed with some Pharisee traditions he taught contradicted the commands of God.I question viewing a tzaddik absolutely authoritative though I certainly see obeying those God places over you. I was also taught to test the teachings that I hear and see.
I have a tendency to favor the Karaite point of view though I am a gentile. The Oral Torah is fine as long as it neither adds or subtracts from the message of the written Torah.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 16 2010,04:40) Quote Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 15 2010,20:35) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 15 2010,16:49) Quote ashermoshehthreepointonefour, The Rabbis consider the Oral Torah as an interpretive tradition. The Karaite tradition disregards it completely.
It seems you disagree with both so what tradition are you from?
The Oral Torah is only interpretive tradition in terms of Rabbinic deliberation of halacha and in terms of teaching. But the Oral Torah itself is not and interpretation, although the Oral Torah in certain cases is interpreted.
The Karaite Judaism does not accept the Oral Torah, only the Written. What it leaves is very little leniency where as Rabbinic Judaism allows for a wide spectrum of leniency to stringency.
I guess you could say Im a Chasidic Netzari Jew
Interesting! I have to do more research on what the Rabbi's mean by interpretive tradition as it is my assumption that meant they were interpreting the law. That in itself is not bad as long as it is the Spirit of God that directs that interpretation. I go by the tzaddik Jesus' interpretation myself. He disagreed with some Pharisee traditions he taught contradicted the commands of God.
The interpretations of the Rabbis are the Talmudic writings, along with all the commentaries that came after.
When you look at the Oral Torah, you will see that Yeshua did not disagree with the Pharisees at all, he actually was adhering to their teachings which they violated themselves. That is most interesting to me because so many people miss that fact.
Quote
I question viewing a tzaddik absolutely authoritative though I certainly see obeying those God places over you. I was also taught to test the teachings that I hear and see.Tzadikim are surely authorative, but a true Tzadik will stand in his proper place, which is what Yeshua did. He was not a member of the Rabbinic courts therefore he told us to follow the teachings of the Rabbis.
Quote
I have a tendency to favor the Karaite point of view though I am a gentile. The Oral Torah is fine as long as it neither adds or subtracts from the message of the written Torah.The Karaites view I accept only for certain reasons, but for the most part, the Karaite view leaves very little wiggle room to keep the commandments. Its very burdensome.
For example: The Torah forbids lighting a flame during Shabbat or extinguishing a flame. In Rabbinic Judaism, one can turn the light on prior to the Shabbat starting, and leave the light on the whole Shabbat. Or one can leave their stove on to keep food warm. The Karaite Judaism says that one cannot have the light at all, and the stove off for the whole Shabbat. So the person in complete darkness and cannot study, or eat the meals etc, and they have to eat cold food. How can one observe the Shabbat properly under those conditions?
Hi Asher:
You say:
Quote What happens when something is in the heart? Should it not compell a person to put that which is in their heart into action? Right on! And that is how we have them on our mind and on the door posts of our house. My house is my body which is the Holy temple of God. And I have already given you Jeremiah 31:31 which states that our Father will write his commandments in our heart and in our minds. We the body of Christ are His hands and feet as we obey His Word.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty………Hear is an interesting thing most may not have thought of, Why did GOD tell the Israelites to Put the Blood of the slain lamb on the door posts of their houses?, because the blood of Jesus has to be applied to the Door Posts of our Hearts and if it is then our sins are passed over also. God was Showing all along his plan for salvation was a matter of being passover by GOD and sparred his wrath coming on us. Jesus Christ is our passover Lamb. IMO
ashermoshehthreepointonefour wrote:
Quote For example: The Torah forbids lighting a flame during Shabbat or extinguishing a flame. In Rabbinic Judaism, one can turn the light on prior to the Shabbat starting, and leave the light on the whole Shabbat. Or one can leave their stove on to keep food warm. The Karaite Judaism says that one cannot have the light at all, and the stove off for the whole Shabbat. So the person in complete darkness and cannot study, or eat the meals etc, and they have to eat cold food. How can one observe the Shabbat properly under those conditions?
Do you know where that comes from in the Torah? I ask as I do not remember that instruction.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 16 2010,13:52) Quote Hi Asher: You say:
Quote What happens when something is in the heart? Should it not compell a person to put that which is in their heart into action? Right on! And that is how we have them on our mind and on the door posts of our house. My house is my body which is the Holy temple of God. And I have already given you Jeremiah 31:31 which states that our Father will write his commandments in our heart and in our minds. We the body of Christ are His hands and feet as we obey His Word.
Love in Christ,
MartyShalom.
I understand what you are saying, and it is true that we should always be have this in our minds and hearts… however these commandments were given for good reason. The actual “action” and bringing that holiness in this world is the key. Its both, you only accept one half. Have you ever tried to observe these commandments physically before or studied them in length? Just curious.
Always love.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 17 2010,05:15) Quote ashermoshehthreepointonefour wrote: Quote For example: The Torah forbids lighting a flame during Shabbat or extinguishing a flame. In Rabbinic Judaism, one can turn the light on prior to the Shabbat starting, and leave the light on the whole Shabbat. Or one can leave their stove on to keep food warm. The Karaite Judaism says that one cannot have the light at all, and the stove off for the whole Shabbat. So the person in complete darkness and cannot study, or eat the meals etc, and they have to eat cold food. How can one observe the Shabbat properly under those conditions?
Do you know where that comes from in the Torah? I ask as I do not remember that instruction.
Here is one that I can think of off hand.
Shemot (Exodus) 35:3
“You shall not kindle a flame in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 17 2010,05:59) kerwin,Jan. wrote:[/quote]
Quote ashermoshehthreepointonefour wrote: Quote For example: The Torah forbids lighting a flame during Shabbat or extinguishing a flame. In Rabbinic Judaism, one can turn the light on prior to the Shabbat starting, and leave the light on the whole Shabbat. Or one can leave their stove on to keep food warm. The Karaite Judaism says that one cannot have the light at all, and the stove off for the whole Shabbat. So the person in complete darkness and cannot study, or eat the meals etc, and they have to eat cold food. How can one observe the Shabbat properly under those conditions?
Do you know where that comes from in the Torah? I ask as I do not remember that instruction.
Here is one that I can think of off hand.
Shemot (Exodus) 35:3
“You shall not kindle a flame in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
Thank you as that gives me more understanding. The Karaite tradition is adding to the law despite what they claim as they ignore the word “kindel” which means start. In subtracting that word they alter the law to “do not have a flame in any of your dwellings on a Sabbath day” They must freeze in cold climates unless they have loophole of some type.Jesus taught us that one must be careful not to obey one stricture of the law to the extent we disobey another one. The Karaite interpretation can defiantly violate the law of love your neighbor as yourself.
I agree with the Rabbinic tradition on this one. You can even add or subtract fuel from the fire provided you do not start it.
I assume it took more labor to start a flame at that time.
You are very welcome.
Kindle also means to manage the flame as well, so once the stove is on, it cant be adjusted. If adding fuel will cause the flame to grow, then its a violation also.
There are only about 3,000 Karaites today, Im not sure if any are in colder climates.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 17 2010,11:32) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 17 2010,05:59) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 17 2010,05:15) Quote ashermoshehthreepointonefour wrote: Quote For example: The Torah forbids lighting a flame during Shabbat or extinguishing a flame. In Rabbinic Judaism, one can turn the light on prior to the Shabbat starting, and leave the light on the whole Shabbat. Or one can leave their stove on to keep food warm. The Karaite Judaism says that one cannot have the light at all, and the stove off for the whole Shabbat. So the person in complete darkness and cannot study, or eat the meals etc, and they have to eat cold food. How can one observe the Shabbat properly under those conditions?
Do you know where that comes from in the Torah? I ask as I do not remember that instruction.
Here is one that I can think of off hand.
Shemot (Exodus) 35:3
“You shall not kindle a flame in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
Thank you as that gives me more understanding. The Karaite tradition is adding to the law despite what they claim as they ignore the word “kindel” which means start. In subtracting that word they alter the law to “do not have a flame in any of your dwellings on a Sabbath day” They must freeze in cold climates unless they have loophole of some type.Jesus taught us that one must be careful not to obey one stricture of the law to the extent we disobey another one. The Karaite interpretation can defiantly violate the law of love your neighbor as yourself.
I agree with the Rabbinic tradition on this one. You can even add or subtract fuel from the fire provided you do not start it.
I assume it took more labor to start a flame at that time.
HI:This instruction probably has to do with starting a fire for the purpose of cooking.
If someone heats with wood, it would not make sense for a fire should not be started for the purpose of heating his house.
I believe that this would be on the same order of pulling and ox out of the ditch on the Sabbath.
The principle is God's people should rest on the Sabbath day. It is a good principle, just as all of His instuction to us is for our good. He wants the very best for His children.
Love in Christ,
Marty
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
