What is the oral torah and the talmud?

Participant

Hi All….

There has been a lot of confusion about the Oral Torah and the Talmud, and I will attempt to clarify the issues that are often brought up. I will try to be as simple but as informative as possible. And I would gladly answer any further questions afterwords. It is important to understand the nature of the Oral Torah and the Talmud, and I will try to help you guys see it. Okay here we go…

THE ORAL TORAH

Torah HaShe'bal Peh means the Oral Torah. The words that HaShem spoke to Moses at Sinai seperate from the writing of the written Torah (Torah HaShebiktav), was a definitive explanation of the Written Torah. Afterall, it was in a way HaShem's ultimate explanation of His own Word.

It's important to clarify a common misconception many have about the role of the Oral Torah in Judaism. The Oral Torah is not an interpretation of the Written Torah in the same sense of the definition. When the Mosheh stood at Mount Sinai, HaShem communicated the 613 commandments, along with a detailed, practical explanation of how to fulfill them. At that point in time, the teachings were entirely oral. This oral teaching and instruction was the Halakhot of HaShem that was given to Moses at Sinai. Halakhah means “the way to walk.”

The Oral Torah also contains commandments that were not written in the Written Torah. The reason why many commandments were not written was because the goal of the Oral Torah was to keep Judaism intact within Israel, so that the Nations would not be able to corrupt it or dillute it with outside influences that were foreign to true Torah. It was meant to also bring a phenomenon of keeping the oral nature of the Patriarchs in tact, as the Oral Torah was also passed down from Shem to Abraham to all of his son and their sons. The Egyptian exile played a role in what brough about the Sinai event in re-introducing the Written and Oral Torah.

In Shemot (Exodus) we learn that HaShem literally wrote the Torah. And then He told Mosheh to write the Torah after he smashed the first set of tablets. Not only did HaShem tell Mosheh what to write, but there are clear allusions to HaShem transmitting and oral teaching to go along with the written.

So, in order to properly understand the Written Torah, one would have to learn the Oral Torah or else one would only be getting half the story. This practice was always confluential, unfortunately the signs of the times made it very difficult to continue in this manner. The unaltered Oral Torah, from HaShem's mouth to Moses' ear… was held intact for all generations after… and soon enough, there was a serious threat imposed upon the people of Israel.

THE TALMUD HISTORY

Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi, was one of the greatest and revered Sages who lived during the time of the end of the 1st Century and into the 2nd Century. Before then and during that time the Roman/Hadrian religious, civil and political oppression and persecution was taking its toll on the Jews. The possibility of the Jew's extinction was that of a serious threat during that time, much like the holocaust.

The Oral Torah was an age old teaching since the time of Mosheh at Sinai… the Written Torah cannot exist without the Oral Torah, for it is HaShem's explanation of the Written Torah. It was never written down and was meant to be an Oral teaching along with the study of the written. The belief says that HaShem told Moses at Sinai to write the Torah and to learn the teachings of HaShem's oral explanation of the Torah. It was then to be passed down from Moses to all the Rabbis and Prophets for all time from generation to generation. It was an unbroken chain.

The Oral Torah was never written down simply because the Oral Torah was meant to be fluid, hence the word “oral.” The principles stayed the same, but the application of those principles was meant to be adapted to all types of new circumstances throughout the modern times. Thus, not adding to Torah but fitting the times into Torah.

This worked exceptionally well as long as the central authority of rabbinical teachers remained in full function, and the chain of transmission was not interrupted. The rabbis were able to pass on their wisdom to the next generation of students. But in the days since the destruction of the Temple, the rabbinical authority had been repeatedly uprooted and rabbis had to go into hiding. To make sure that the chain of transmission would never be broken, HaNasi realized the time had come to write down the Oral Torah.

Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi, realized the possibility of the Oral Torah being lost was becoming a serious consideration. It is the responsibility of a Jew to protect and preserve the Torah (written and oral) at all costs. The Rabbinical Sages along with HaNasi decided after long deliberation that they must do the unprecendented procedure… to write down the Oral Torah. Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi realized things were getting worse and worse. The Temple would not be rebuilt in his generation and possibly in many generations to come. The Jews fleeing the land as a result of the constant persecutions and impossible living conditions. The central authority was weaker than ever and might cease altogether which is what happened in the 4th century.

Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi had to go to as many rabbis as possible in order to extract from them their entire memories and knowledge on everything under the sun concerning Torah. He asked them to tell him all they knew about the knowledge they received that could be traced back all the way down to Moses at Mount Sinai. He put all those recollections together, edited them to codified format, and the end result was the Mishneh.

THE MIDRASH

Midrash means “process” alluding to the nature of the transitions from Oral Torah to interpretation of all scripture.

Not only were the legal aspects of the Torah important but so were the stories. The Oral Torah also was HaShem's explanation of the stories. So this aspect had to be addressed. The most important approach to this was called Pardes (Peshat, Remez, Drash and Sod) which were the 4 levels of understanding the scriptures.

Originally the Midrash was a commentarial format written by many different Sages concerning the Oral Torah's explanations in correlation to the Written Torah… it primarily dealt with the Stories of the Torah (Hagadah) from a literal, homiletical, metaphorical, allegorical, typological, mystical and exegetical approach and those correlations also in association to the Laws of Torah (Halakhic). Later, the Midrash expanded into commentaries of the entire Tenakh, and other Jewish holy writings in light of the Oral Torah. In other words, like the Written Torah… the Oral Torah was the basis for or template to refer to in all other scripture.

There were countless writings of the Sages who recorded their personal interpretations, the differing opinions of the Sages, and their interpretations of the Oral Torah, etc etc…

So the Midrash's complete format was that of what is Oral Torah and what is Sagetical interpretation of all scripture. It is seperated in honesty by saying “the Oral Torah says that” and “this is what this Rabbi says.”

And this was the beginning seeds planted to formulate the Mishneh and then the Talmud. The Sages realized that even though the Oral Torah was HaShem's explanation, that they still were confined to their perspective of their interpretation of HaShem's explanation. And they realized that in order for any man to attain wisdom, we much learn from every perspective whether wrong or right. To the truth from every level.

The Sages understood that this midrash or process would continue infinitely.

THE MISHNEH

Mishneh means “repetition” which alludes to the passing down of Oral Torah unbroken from generation to generation.

The Mishneh was divided into six basic components dealing with six basic areas of Torah Law. It was a codified format in which to outline the Oral Torah's
laws in detail. These codified writings were not the opinions or interpretations of the Sages, but from the Oral Torah.

1. Zeraim “seeds”: all agricultural rules and laws for foods as well as all blessings
2. Moed “holiday”: all the rituals of Shabbat and other Jewish holidays
3. Nashim “women”: all the issues between men and women such as marriage, divorce, etc.
4. Nezikin “damages”: all civil and criminal law
5. Kodshim “holy things”: all the laws of the Temple
6. Taharot “pure things”: all the laws of spiritual purity and impurity
HaNasi finished compiling the Mishneh in 219 CE in Galilee (interestingly that where Yeshua was from).

THE BEGINNING

The Rabbis including HaNasi, realized after finishing the Mishneh and the Midrash, that the Mishneh and the Midrash were simply not enough. It was written in shorthand fashion and in places was still very cryptically encoded. This is because it was very concise, written on the assumption that the person reading it was already well acquainted with the subject matter. Of course, the wisdom of the Sages concluded that the Oral Torah being written down was still under development in order to be a proper body of writings.

So consequently, they began to have further long and grueling discussions, debates and deliberations about this and they made it a point to write down the substance of these discussions, debates and deliberations. This was to promote the honest recording of everything that was said between these great Sages. They wrote down the entire process from start to finish so that the student would learn from every step of the process.

The Talmud was born, but still not fully developed.

Since a significant portion of the Jewish population was living in Babylon, which was outside the bounds of the Roman Empire, the rabbis there put together the compilations of the Oral Torah, Mishneh and the Midrashim, the end product of which was called Talmud Bavli or the Babylonian Talmud.

In Israel, another set of discussions took place and the end result was Talmud Yerushalmi or the Jerusalem Talmud. The Jerusalem Talmud was not written in Jerusalem, it was written in Tiberias, the last place where the Sanhedrin sat, but was called the Jerusalem Talmud in deference to the Sanhedrin's rightful home.

THE TALMUD

Talmud means “learning” which alludes to the infinitely vast information center of itself.

At this point, the Taanaim and Amoraim (the Talmudic Sages) realized this was not even enough. To be so absolutely honest, the Sages humbled themselves in realizing that even though the commandment in Devarim 17:9-12 is giving the Sages the final authority on Torah and that we are all commanded to follow their Torah teachings… they also knew that it was important for the believer to figure it out on their own as well… because the individual is the final authority on what they will accept or reject. They understood that every perspective was necessary to be recorded.

This is a clear indication of the honesty and humbleness of the Talmudic Sages. They didnt omit anything, they left it all in there so that everyone can learn from it all. The entire process was recorded so that the reader or student would be able to travel throughout each part of the process the Sages undertook.

The Talmud is more than just an application of the details of the Jewish law as expounded in the Mishneh. It is more than just an application of the meanings of all the stories in Midrash. It is the encyclopedia of all Jewish existence. Just as a lawyer has previous cases to refer to, in order to find out what happened in cases of the past that are similar to a current situation… so is the same idea with the Talmud.

The Talmud contains Agadata, these are stories not limited to Biblical stories that are meant to illustrate important points in the worldview. These stories contain a wealth of information on a huge range of topics. You name it, it's in there.

Then we have the Gemara, or “explanation of the explanation.” The Gemara is basically all the discussions but in specific notation to scripture or Oral Torah. They discussed every level to such an extent that it would travel in and out of so many revelations on a particular subject.

The Sages wanted to make sure that they covered every possible situation, they pondered and debated, discussed and calculated every single situation possible so that it would be recorded. This was so that future believers would have a precedent to refer to if they were seeking knowledge or advice on a particular commandment, practice or teaching.

The Sages loved the people so much that they didnt want them to be sinners, as any one would want to prevent. So, they developed what is known as rabbinic “halakhah” which means “the way to walk.” The Sages recorded each custom in how to perform mitzvot in the best way possible according to the Mishneh and Oral Torah. So they contemplated everything you can imagine and recorded it so that every commandment would be applicable to any given situation. They recorded the most lenient to most stringent ways to observe a commandment so that the reader would have a wide range to see from.

The goal was to make sure that the Torah was in line to facilitate every possible aspect of life.

The fence laws, which were also recorded, were not necessarily demanding to be followed. The Sages instituted fence laws to prevent others from breaking the commandments.

The Talmud says “The Torah is conceived as a garden (pardes) and its precepts as precious plants (tokhech). Such a garden is fenced round for the purpose of obviating willful or even unintended damage. Likewise, the precepts of the Torah were to be 'fenced' round with additional inhibitions that should have the effect of preserving the original commandments from trespass.”

As I said, the fence laws were not necessarily demanding to be followed. Why? Because one person might not be prone to sin in one area whereas another person might be. So what the fence laws really are is a protection for the weak in terms of weakness for sin.

For example: There is a fence law that says a man cannot come into physical contact with a woman unless she is a wife, parent, daughter, cibling or relative. This may sound rediculous… but it really isnt.

A man can give a friendly hug to a woman that is not related to him or married to him. She is just a friend however the woman might be weak and the simple friendly hug may spark lustful and adulterous thoughts inside her mind. This may be a creation of something that may “amount” into something more. The man's wife might see this simple hug and become jealous or sad thinking that “something might be going on.” The man may succumb to his own weakness and also sin by thinking adulterous thoughts. And this could lead to something more if there is no control over that sin.

So the fence law is to prevent the weaker person from committing that particular sin. It doesnt necessarily mean that this is so in every case… it is simply a recording of the Sages contemplations on the every possible situation regarding that sin. It was recorded to teach others about this possible situation or situations so that they are aware of what might happen in a similar situation. This way, there is some kind of teaching as to how to avoid from sinning in a particular way.

As I said… every possible situation was recorded after debates and deliberations, discussions, ponderings and contemplations. Discussed on every level to extreme degrees.

In Talmudic writings, the Sages would always begin a debate or discussion with a question. This was to spark the reader to think about it themselves before reading. Then the answers of each Sage would be written. Now the reader has the Written and Oral Torah, the codified laws, the stories and their meanings, the fence laws and the opinions of the Sages to refer to and learn from.

To read the Talmud is to read a lot of healthy arguments. On every page it seems
that the rabbis are arguing. This kind of argument is the purpose of which was to arrive at the kernel of truth (pilpul). This word has a negative connotation outside the yeshiva world, as people read these arguments and it seems to the uneducated eye that the rabbis are merely splitting hairs, and that some of the arguments have absolutely no basis in everyday life. But this is not so.

The reason why the rabbis argued and debated about things that may not have any application to everyday life was to try to get to truth in an abstract way, to extract the principle. These rabbis were interested in knowing what reality is and in doing the right thing. Reality is what Judaism is all about, the ultimate reality of the Creator.

Another important point that must be made about these arguments is that they never argued about the big things. You don't see a single argument as to whether or not you eat pork, or whether or not you can light a fire on the Sabbath. These things were a given, they were totally agreed upon because it was Oral Torah. Only small points were subject to discussion. And these rabbis were wise enough to know that a day would come when the principles established by getting to the core kernel of truth would have far reaching implications.

Not only that, but there were many recordings of historical accounts of all the periods that went by, from all the people and events that took place. The trials, sentences, verdicts and final decisions were also recorded.

The Talmudic commentaries didnt end there, it continued on and on. More commentaries that commented on the earlier commentaries were also important to see the increasing perspectives of the Sages flowing along with the time periods that were passing by.

And this is how the Talmud continued to keep the oral teachings oral, by recording all these conversations and to continue the oral nature of the way the Oral Torah was transmitted from HaShem to Moses and then all the way down the line. It was meant to continue this way because of what the Torah represents.

The Talmud was in full development around 400 CE to 500 CE, with the understanding that it would continue developing forever.

CONCLUSION

The Talmud is the Oral Torah, the Mishneh, the Midrash, the Gemara, the commentaries, debates, deliberations, opinions, interpretations, final decisions, recordings of historical people and events and so on and so on.

The Sages knew that the Written Torah contained everything that ever was, is and ever will be. They realized when the Talmud was developed that since the Written Torah is also the whole Tenakh and all written scripture… that the Oral Torah was also the entirety of the Oral Torah including all the commentaries, debates, deliberations, opinions, interpretations, final decisions, etc etc. The Talmud was basically the whole Oral Torah in the same as the Written Torah was all scripture.

The Talmud is literally the encyclopedia of the entire Jewish existence. From Jewish Law to Jewish history. From the correct to the incorrect, from the positive to the negative… from every perspective of all the greatest Torah giants in history. The purpose was to record everything, whether it was right or wrong… and to show the conclusions that were arrived, to show the evergrowing knowledge of the Word of HaShem. It was to show the mistakes that were made, the errors, the corrections and re-establishements… to be honest to the reader. To show the processes from lowest to highest from every level. To reveal how the Sages arrived to their conclusions. To show the process of the mindset of the Sages who we are supposed to follow after.

The Talmud is a recording of HaShem's explanation and the explanation of the Sages that HE appointed… from every perspective. And it will continue to grow.
Every commentary, every discussion… even as we sit on the internet and discuss and debate… we are continuing the Talmud. We are continuing the Oral Torah from where Moses and G-d left off at Sinai… from all the generations of Rabbis throughout history, it is infinite.

It truly is something that all believers will benefit from. It is truly an amazing thing to delve into. It has strengthened my understanding of everything and has educated me on much… but most of all… it has strengthened my faith in HaShem and my understanding in Yeshua being the true Messiah. This cant be all that bad now can it?

The Oral Torah says, that no matter how many revelations and insights we gain from Torah… no matter how many new interpretations and realizations we arrive to… it was already given to Moses at Sinai.

I hope this was a good summary of the Oral Torah and the Talmud. I might have to come back and add some things that I may have forgotten to mention. But I hope this gives you an good idea now. Let me know what you think.

January 10, 2010 at 7:29 pm#169511

Constitutionalist

Participant

Your statement: “The Talmud is the Oral Torah, the Mishneh, the Midrash, the Gemara, the commentaries, debates, deliberations, opinions, interpretations, final decisions, recordings of historical people and events and so on and so on.” Sums it up pretty good!
:blues:

January 11, 2010 at 12:50 am#169556

Participant

Hi:

Thanks for bringing this information to us. I understand the the Talmud is the Oral law which embodies the Midrash, Mishneh and the Gemara.

Did the Oral Law originate with Moses? How do I know that this Oral Law came from God?

This seems to be on the same order as the Catholic teaching which uses scripture as well as tradition to support their teachings.

Love in Christ,
Marty

January 11, 2010 at 1:33 am#169560

Participant

Ashermos…..> that was very interesting and informative, too. Thanks.

peace and love to you and yours………………> gene

January 11, 2010 at 2:28 am#169567

terraricca

Participant

hi Ash
this is very interesting ,well done .

January 11, 2010 at 2:45 pm#169607

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 11 2010,11:50)

Hi:

Thanks for bringing this information to us. I understand the the Talmud is the Oral law which embodies the Midrash, Mishneh and the Gemara.

Did the Oral Law originate with Moses? How do I know that this Oral Law came from God?

This seems to be on the same order as the Catholic teaching which uses scripture as well as tradition to support their teachings.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hello,

No problem, love sharing information and insight.

The Oral Torah was given Moses at Mt Sinai however it existed even prior to that since Adam to Noach to Shem to Abraham all the way down the line.

Knowing whether or not the Oral Torah came from G-d is the same is knowing whether or not the Written Bible came from G-d.

There are scriptures that show that there was in fact an orally transmitted teachings passed down. I will provide some verses.

Abraham kept the Oral and the Written Torah.

Bereshiyt (Genesis) 26:5
“Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my TORAHS (plural).”

HaShem gave Moses both the Torah (written) and the MItzvah (Orah Torah), which HaShem wrote that he should teach them.

Shemot (Exodus) 24:12
“And HaShem said unto Mosheh: 'Come up to Me into the mount and be there; and I will give thee the tables of stone, AND the Torah AND the commandment (mitzvah), WHICH I have written that you may teach them.”

The scriptures clearly indicate that there was an oral transmission from HaShem by which Moses told all the Israelites. And they all agreed to keep the Oral Torah as well as the Written.

Shemot (Exodus) 24:3
“Mosheh came and TOLD the people ALL of Elokim's WORDS and all the ordinances. The people all responded with a single voice, saying: 'All the words that Elokim spoke — we will do'.”

There is no written commandment that tells us how to kill and animal according to kosher laws, and yet HaShem says that they should kill the animal according to how He instructed them to.

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 12:21
“If the place which HaShem Elokecha has chosen to put his name there be too far from you, then you shall kill the animal of your herd and of your flock, which HaShem has given you, AS I HAVE COMMANDED YOU, and you shall eat in your gates whatsoever your soul lusts after.”

There were no pictures in the scriptures, HaShem showed Moses how to make the Temple Menorah. Clearly indicating oral transmission.

Bamidbar (Numbers) 8:4
“And this work of the Menorah was of beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was beaten work: ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN which HaShem HAD SHOWED Mosheh, so he made the Menorah.”

The Shema, the creed of Torah observance… there is no written instruction on how to make Teffilin or a Mezuzah, nor is there a written instruction on how to put them on your arm or head or door post. And yet, the text assumes the people will know because they have the Oral Torah to explain it.

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:8-9

“And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be TEFILLIN between thine eyes. And you shall write MEZUZOT upon the door posts of your house, and on your gates.”

The people who were gathered while Ezra, a Kohen as well as a Sofer read the Torah. After it was read, there were 13 people, plus the Levitical Priests who helped the people to understand the Torah and gave its interpretation. That is, they explained it in light of the Oral Torah.

Nehemiah 8:1-9
“And all the people gathered as one man in the open place before the Water Gate; and told Ezra the Scribe to bring the book of the Torah of Mosheh, which HaShem had commanded to Yisrael. And Ezra the Priest brought the Torah before the congregation both of men and women, and all who could hear with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month. And he read from it in front of the open space before the Water Gate, from early morning until noon, before the men and the women, and those who could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the Torah…And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; for he was above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up; And Ezra blessed HaShem, the great Elokim. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, lifting up their hands; and they bowed their heads, and worshipped HaShem with their faces to the ground. Also Yehushua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Yamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Yozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levi'yim, helped the people to understand the Torah; while the people stood in their places. So they read in the book in the Torah of Elokim clearly, and gave the interpretation, so that they understood the reading. And Nehemiah, who was the Governor, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levi'yim who taught the people, said to all the people, This is holy to the HaShem Elokecha; do not mourn, nor weep. For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the Torah.”

There is commandment concerning the Sages in the written Torah. It is one of the 613. But the bottom line is, we are commanded to adhere to the Sages.The Rabbis are the Shofetim, the Judge of that Day indicates that whatever time we live in, the Judge of the day assumes this position of authority.

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 17:8-12
“If there arise a matter too hard for you in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within your gates: then shall you arise, and get yourself up into the place which HaShem Elokecha shall choose; And you shall come unto the Kohenim (Priests), the Levi'yim (Levites), and unto the Shofetim (Judges of the Torah, Dayinim, Rabbis) that shall be in those days, and inquire; and they shall show you the sentence of judgment: And you shall do according to the sentence, which they of that place which HaShem shall choose; and you shall observe to do according to all that they teach you: According to the sentence of the Torah which they shall teach you, and according to the judgment which they shall tell you, you shall do: you shall not decline from the sentence which they shall show you, to the right hand, nor to the left. And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not listen unto the Kohen (Priest) that stands to minister there before the HaShem Elokecha, or unto the Shofet (Judge of the Torah, Dayin, Rabbi), even that man shall die: and you shall put away the evil from Yisrael.”

The Catholic teaching of an oral tradition is a fabricated account, as we all know that the Christianity did not even exist until long after the Apostles left this earth. Christianity had abolished the Torah and also the Oral Torah, while misrepresenting the scriptures through a de-Judaification and Hellenization Paganization of the Bible, its doctrines and culture.

The Oral Torah has been around ever since and Yeshua and the Apostles adhered to it and taught it.

January 12, 2010 at 4:54 am#169734

Participant

Hi ashermoshehthreepointonefour:

There is no doubt that the various instructions to Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses were communicated to them orally, and the only commandments that were written by God were those that He wrote on tables of stone which are commonly referred to as the ten commandments, God's eternal law.

The written Torah is attributed to Moses, and so the question would be what part of the Oral instructions that were given to him by God were not written in what we now have as our bible?

You mention the following:

Quote

There is no written commandment that tells us how to kill and animal according to kosher laws, and yet HaShem says that they should kill the animal according to how He instructed them to.

Posting this in context, my understanding of what is being said here is just a little different than what you are saying.

Quote

Deu 12:20 “When the LORD your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, 'Let me eat meat,' because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.

Deu 12:21 If the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, then you may slaughter from your herd and from your flock which the LORD has given you, just as I have commanded you, and you may eat within your gates as much as your heart desires.

Deu 12:22 Just as the gazelle and the deer are eaten, so you may eat them; the unclean and the clean alike may eat them Deu 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood [is] the life; you may not eat the life with the meat.
Deu 12:24 You shall not eat it; you shall pour it on the earth like water.
Deu 12:25 You shall not eat it, that it may go well with you and your children after you, when you do [what is] right in the sight of the LORD

He is just saying that they may kill and eat meat from their herds “just as He has commanded them”. This is not referring to any particular procedure for butchering the animal. He has, however, told them that they must not eat the blood, but pour it out on the ground.

And you say:

Quote

he Shema, the creed of Torah observance… there is no written instruction on how to make Teffilin or a Mezuzah, nor is there a written instruction on how to put them on your arm or head or door post. And yet, the text assumes the people will know because they have the Oral Torah to explain it.

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:8-9

“And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be TEFILLIN between thine eyes. And you shall write MEZUZOT upon the door posts of your house, and on your gates.”

I believe that the reason that there are no instructions in how to make these is that it was not meant for this to taken literally. It is meant symbolically.

Quote

Deu 6:6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.

Deu 6:7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.

If the commandments are in your heart, then you will be able teach them to your family, and the rest is symbolism, and not meant to be taken literally.

And you say:

Quote

This is what Jesus stated:

Quote

Mat 23:8 But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, [fn] and you are all brethren.
Mat 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Of course, we are submit to God through someone he has placed in authority over us, as long as they are teaching the Word of God.

I can't tell someone in authority in the church that I agree with the “trinity doctrine”, for example, and Jesus had some words for the Pharisees who were teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

And so, the question for me, is does that which has been passed down by tradition line up with the written Word or not?

Love in Christ,
Marty

January 12, 2010 at 6:46 am#169753

kerwin

Participant

I have my doubts about the Oral Torah. It seems to be the interpretations of the law much like court law is the interpretation of the laws passed by the legislature. Like Court Law what the actual law states and what Court Law states may have little in common.

The regulation for clean butchering that are applied today are not even realistic for hunters or farm families and yet the Law allows for hunting. That tells me that special interests have probably had a hand in shaping the interpretation of those laws.

January 12, 2010 at 4:42 pm#169786

Participant

To ALL………the reason God forbid eating or drinking the blood of a animal is because. The life is in the Blood of all animals as well as Man. What GOD was spiritually driving at was this. DO NOT (EAT) (take to yourselves) THE BLOOD (the life) of any animal including man. It was a spiritual principle He was conveying to us, by those words. The word EAT is HIGHLY SPIRITUAL in SCRIPTURES. Jesus used it also “unless you (EAT) the flesh and (DRINK) the(BLOOD) of the son of man YOU have (NO) life in you.” What was being said there is that unless we (TAKE TO OURSELVES) as one does when He (EATS AND DRINKS) Jesus' life he gave his (flesh and Blood) for us we simply have no life in us. This spiritual principle of EAT even applies to the garden of where GOD said you are not to EAT (takes to yourselves) from the (TREE) that which produces from self, to produce the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The things written in scripture many times need to be taken to a spiritual level to be properly understood. IMO

January 13, 2010 at 6:55 pm#169934

Participant

Quote

Hi ashermoshehthreepointonefour:

The written Torah is attributed to Moses, and so the question would be what part of the Oral instructions that were given to him by God were not written in what we now have as our bible?

The scriptures show that much of what had been explained is not written in the Torah. Also, we can see by the actions and words of those people that they kept the Torah before Sinai.

The Oral was things like, how to make the menorah, teffilin, tzitzit, mezuzah, how to slaughter and animal, etc… there are many that were not written but alluded to in the oral transmission that was written in the Torah.

Quote

You mention the following:

Quote

There is no written commandment that tells us how to kill and animal according to kosher laws, and yet HaShem says that they should kill the animal according to how He instructed them to.

Posting this in context, my understanding of what is being said here is just a little different than what you are saying.

What is it that you see differently?

Quote

Deu 12:20 “When the LORD your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, 'Let me eat meat,' because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.

The Oral Torah explains the procedure in how to slaughter the animal.

Quote

And you say:

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:8-9

“And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be TEFILLIN between thine eyes. And you shall write MEZUZOT upon the door posts of your house, and on your gates.”

I believe that the reason that there are no instructions in how to make these is that it was not meant for this to taken literally. It is meant symbolically.

If it was not meant to be taken literally then Yeshua would not have approved of its literal observance. No?

Quote

Deu 6:6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.

Deu 6:7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.

If the commandments are in your heart, then you will be able teach them to your family, and the rest is symbolism, and not meant to be taken literally.

The Torah is not only about spiritual matters, but also physical.

Quote

And you say:

This is what Jesus stated:

Quote

Of course, we are submit to God through someone he has placed in authority over us, as long as they are teaching the Word of God.

True.

Yeshua
himself was a Rabbi, so it is obvious that he would not be saying that there should be no rabbis. All he was saying here that HaShem is the ultimate Rabbi, the ultimate Master, the ultimate Father. He was even saying that the Messiah is subject to G-d.

Obviously, we still have fathers, we still have masters, and we still have rabbis. So, it is important to keep interpretation within the context the verses are given.

Quote

And so, the question for me, is does that which has been passed down by tradition line up with the written Word or not?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Yeshua's beef with the Shemai Pharisee group was about the manner in which they were teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. When the certain Pharisees questioned Yeshua about his disciples not doing the hand washing ritual it is important to note that they didnt question whether or not he washed his hands, they questioned his disciples. It is more than likely that He did wash His hands, but the disciples did not. What does this mean?

The Talmud states that the ritual of hand washing (netilat yedayin) is invalid if the mind and heart is not also “cleansing.” In the Talmud, Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai, stated: “In life it is not the dead who make you unclean; nor is it the water you wash your hands, but rather the ordinances of the king of kings that purifies.” Much later, Rabbi Maimonides (Rambam) made a similar comment, “For to confine oneself to cleaning the outward appearance through washing and cleaning the garment, while having at the same time a lust for various pleasures and unbridled license … merits the utmost blame.”

The Pharisees had judgement in their hearts instead of compassion, and therefore Yeshua contested their teachings because they were breaking commandments in their statements against them. They were not following their own teaching, and therefore were disgracing the laws of HaShem. It was by this reason that Yeshua responded that it is not that which goes into your mouth that makes you unclean, but rather that which comes out. He basically held a mirror in front of their faces.

The tradition of ritual purity; namely, washing the hands; is valid, however, invalid if your mind and your heart is not cleansing. The certain Pharisees were doing things to look pious and special, so others would see… yet they were filthy on the inside. The disciples didnt wash their hands because they didnt feel they were clean inside, and therefore didnt do it in that instance. But we should consider the other verses that reveal that they certain did observe this ritual of washing the hands.

Ya'acov (James) 4:8
“Draw nigh to Elah, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.”

The Pharisees taught that the Torah had been given to the community for the purpose of community and therefore any competant person was capable of interpreting it, but that Rabbinical authority was paramount (Deut 17:9-12). Yeshua also taught that Rabbinical authority was paramount (Matt 23:1-3). This is a good indication that reb Yeshua viewed the Pharisaic doctrines and teachings as acceptable and authoritive.

Pharisees believed that the Oral Torah was also given to Moses along with the Written Torah at Mount Sinai. The scriptures in the book of Exodus supports this theory that there was an Oral Teaching given to Moses from God. The Written Torah is incomplete without the Oral Torah. Many of the teachings of Oral Torah was also practiced and taught by areb Yeshua. In fact, all of the instances that are used against Rabbinic Judaism are the very instances that Yeshua was observing the Oral Torah. I personally find that fact to be a really bubble burster. A person would need to educate themselves on this subject in order to know these things, other wise they will continue to follow the perversions that have been spoonfed to those who do not know.

They were advocates of social improvement and were open to doctrinal developments because they believed that the Torah was a relevant social force. They considered the Torah to be a set table while at the same time being capable of being expanded to address new circumstances and new situations. This not only makes sense, but it is inevitable. They taught that the Torah provided continuity and was a basis for progress and development.

The “traditions of the elders” or also “customs” that were instituted were not to be taken as Biblical command, only secondary in that a tradition or a custom instituted in the community cannot supercede a Biblical commandment. Hence, one of the reasons why Reb Yeshua said “Why do you ALSO transgress the commandments of God by your tradition?” Reb Yeshua was not defending the disciples, he said “why do you ALSO” indicating that the disciples DID transgress against the rabbinic authority, however, ALSO the Pharisees improperly used that Rabbinic instruction when they violated a Biblical command.Reb Yeshua was using their own teachings against them because they were violating the chain of command. A Rabbinic enactment or a tradition or custom cannot ever be above a Biblical commandment, it can only serve as an enhancement of the Biblical command and must be treated as secondary authority. And this is what the Pharisees taught.

January 13, 2010 at 6:59 pm#169935

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 12 2010,17:46)

Most people's doubts is because they dont understand what the Oral Torah is.

The Sages interpretations are not the Oral Torah. And the Oral Torah are not interpretations.

The Talmud does present the Oral Torah and the Written Torah in a similar format of Court Law, but the goal there was to make sure the Torah was applied to any and all possibilities, as well as giving precedence for any cases that may arise. This is so that the person has something to refer to.

The regulations for kosher slaughtering is realistic, as there are many places one can obtain kosher meats.

January 13, 2010 at 8:15 pm#169947

Participant

ashermoshe…………Question brother………If we are moved by the Spirit of GOD in our inward parts, doesn't that fulfill (ALL) the Law, rather oral or Legal, or traditions of peoples. I firmly believe GOD worked with the CANAL MIND ISRAELITES, Of which i believe i also am a descendant of the tribe of EPHRAIM, but to no AVAIL, therefore it says, “for God looked for (ONE) righteous Person and found (NONE), So he took it upon himself to bring salvation”. These people who Jesus addressed many times were Jews and were strict observers of all the laws especially the dietary and washing laws. But yet Jesus said to them they were of their father the devil. They did not percieve the deep things of GOD, they were Physically focused on Sabbaths days, and clean and unclean food and the like, they had many handed down traditions, But they themselves were still considered transgressor by Jesus our Lord.

In fact he said they were called the childern of the devil right. Look i am not down on Jews I have many Jewish Friends and love them very much and they me. But i must say I have argued with them and their Rabbis toe to toe over Jesus and what was written in the books, somethings they were right, while others i believe they were wrong especially with regards to Jesus. And one of their sages who is now dead, I believe was not totally convience with the Jewish stand on Jesus as not being the Messiah. Any my point is that we do need to be careful we don't focuses on (JUST) the Physical aspects of the law and commandments, rather oral or written. The SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLES ARE A FAR GREATER THING TO BE UNDERSTOOD, IMO

peace and love to you and yours Ashermoshe………………………gene

January 13, 2010 at 8:36 pm#169949

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 14 2010,07:15)

peace and love to you and yours Ashermoshe………………………gene

HI there….

Being moved by the Spirit of G-d means nothing without action, and action is what the Torah on the physical level teaches. It begins inwardly, but then from their it needs to be brought outwardly. As the scriptures state, that spirit and faith without works is empty.

G-d is concerned with us doing all that we can, as long as we are trying our best, our efforts are counted as merit. Therefore, our sins and shortcomings will be nullified by our efforts. But if we ignore G-d's Torah that He wrote and told Moses to write, we are doing a great disservice to the mission.

What do you mean by CANAL MIND ISRAELITES?

If you are a believer who was brought up within the Nations, then you are one of the lost tribes and therefore an Ephraimite.

Righteousness is counted by our faith, but it is what we do with our faith that really brings it to another level.

Strict observance of Torah is not wrong, but without the Spirit of the Torah then the Letter of the Torah doesnt work properly. And that is what Yeshua had issues with.

Yeshua called those certain Pharisees sons of the devil because they were descendants of the Eruv Rav, the imposter pagans who infiltrated Israel during the Exodus and were responsible for the inciting of the Gold Calf. There are many prophecies regarding the Eruv Rav, they exist today, they are the corruption within Judaism. They were the corruption during Yeshua's day. And that is why he called them that.

He had no problem at all with Torah observance. He only taught it and practiced it.

You would be shocked to know how many of the Sages did believe in Yeshua, and how many Orthodox Jews today believe.

The bottom line is, the prophecy regarding the Messiah is that he will teach, practice and spread Torah throughout the world. Anyone who does opposite of this is called a false prophet. The Bible states these things, so we must be careful with the anti-Torah doctrines out there….

Take care. Shalom

January 13, 2010 at 11:19 pm#169980

Participant

Hi asher:

What I see differently is that “As I Have COMMANDED YOU” does not refer to the procedure for killing the animal, but to the instructions that were given by God that ISRAEL COULD KILL AND EAT THE MEAT OF AN AMIMAL OF THEIR FLOCK OR HERD.

But I don't see a problem with trying to have compassion on an animal when it is being buthered, but I don't see it as a law that is binding on the body of Christ.

You say relative to the Teffilin and the Mezuzah:

Quote

If it was not meant to be taken literally then Yeshua would not have approved of its literal observance. No?

Where in the bible do you see that these procedures were being observed? It is in our heart and our mind that the commandments of God need be written.

Quote

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

Yes, of course, we have other teachers of the gospel, but Jesus is the Christ, and it is he that appoints those who are in the five fold ministry, including teachers.

Quote

“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

You say:

Quote

We should wash our hands because it is a health issue. Jesus made it clear that eating with unwashen hands does not defile the person, but it is what come out of the heart that defiles a person.

And you quote the following scripture:

Quote

Ya'acov (James) 4:8
“Draw nigh to Elah, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.”

This scripture doesn't have anything to do with the ritual of wash our hands, but has to do with cleansing our hands of what evil that we do as sinners, and thereby purifiying our hearts.

This is what the scriptures state in Hebrews:

Quote

6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

You say:

Quote

The Written Torah is incomplete without the Oral Torah.

Jesus said all is fulfilled in the following scriptures:

Quote

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Love in Christ,
Marty

January 14, 2010 at 1:28 am#170033

Participant

Marty………I do agree with you on this, we must be careful not to just focus on the Physical when the Spiritual is the issue. I do agree with asernoseh……..about we should be doing what is in the Commandments, and not just hears only, if we truly have GOD'S SPIRIT of LOVE operating in our hearts and minds, Like the gentiles who have (NOT) the law, but do what is contained in them , showing the law written on their hearts by the hand of GOD, we will be doing the intent of the commandments which is LOVE toward GOD and MAN. We will be wise as a serpent, yet harmless as a DOVE. We must remember true righteousness is a (CREATION) , “FOR WE ARE CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS” and again “for He (GOD) works in us (BOTH) to will and do (HIS) good pleasure”. The LOVE of GOD shed around in our hearts perform all the intent of his Laws, IMO.

January 14, 2010 at 5:34 am#170061

kerwin

Participant

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 14 2010,00:59)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 12 2010,17:46)

Most people's doubts is because they dont understand what the Oral Torah is.

The Sages interpretations are not the Oral Torah. And the Oral Torah are not interpretations.

The regulations for kosher slaughtering is realistic, as there are many places one can obtain kosher meats.

I have read it and I know how a man hunts. You cannot bleed the animal by the methods hunters have to kill.

A hunter first kills the animal and then bleeds it.

What you call kosher slaughter today is more like what might have been used in the temple.

The children of Israel hunted for food and yet kept the laws of God.

This is just one case where the traditions of man have trumped the law of God in the Rabbinic tradition.

Here is what the Law actually states:

Leviticus 17:13(NIV) reads:

Quote

” 'Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth,

January 14, 2010 at 3:21 pm#170087

Participant

ashermoshe………..What i meant by CARNAL MINDED ISRAELITES, was not a put down to them for all men are CARNAL Minded at the start of their lives with few exceptions.

Rom 8:7…> Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please GOD, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit , if so be that the Spirit of GOD dwell in you. Now if (ANY) Man have not the Spirit of Christ (the anointing) he is none of his.

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the Law of a carnal commandment, but after the law of an endless life.

Heb 9:10….> which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and (CARNAL) ordinances. imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The Spritual minded are not the same as the Carnal Minded. IMO

January 14, 2010 at 5:30 pm#170102

Participant

942767,Jan. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

Hi asher:

But I don't see a problem with trying to have compassion on an animal when it is being buthered, but I don't see it as a law that is binding on the body of Christ.

Hello.

If it was not referring to the slaughter, then “AS I HAVE COMMANDED YOU” would have come after where it speaks about eating whatever they wanted to eat. Yet, after it says “AS I HAVE….” etc it says “AND” you shall eat…. so it shows that in addition to his showing of how to kill the animals, G-d says AND you can eat however much they want.

Treating animals with love and care, and slaughtering them humanely certainly is a binding commandment in the body of Messiah because the Messiah himself said that the entire Torah hangs on the commandments to love G-d and love thy neighbor as self. Animals were created by G-d, so there must be a level of respect and love as He Himself bestows upon His creatures. And to love thy neighbor, our animal freinds are also our neighbors. Therefore, ignoring this clear as day instruction does a disservice to the body of Messiah.

Quote

You say relative to the Teffilin and the Mezuzah:

Quote

If it was not meant to be taken literally then Yeshua would not have approved of its literal observance. No?

Where in the bible do you see that these procedures were being observed? It is in our heart and our mind that the commandments of God need be written.

Yeshua said to the corrupted Shemai Pharisees that they make their phylacteries (tefilin/totofot) too large (for the sake of showing off). Here we see that Yeshua did not have a problem with the literal observance of Tefilin, he had an issue with the boastful nature that the corrupted leaders took upon themselves.

The Shema states that

Deuteronomy 6:6
“And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart.”

then it says

Deuteronomy 6:8-9
“And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be TOTOFOT between your eyes. And you shall write them on the MEZUZOT of your house and on your gates.”

Here we see, not only is it to be in our heart, but it is also to be bound on our hand and between our eyes and on our door posts of every gate.

Then to further show what Im saying, the rest of the Shema shows a further detail of its spiritual and physical nature.

Deuteronomy 11:18
“So you shall place these words of Mine, on your heart and on your soul;”

Here we see again, the spiritual nature of “placing” within the heart.

And then directly after we see…

Deuteronomy 11:18 and then 20
“And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be TOTOFOT between your eyes.

…..And you shall inscribe them on the MEZUZOT of your house and on your gates.”

Clearly after we read a spiritual instruction, we see a physical action also required to perform.

Quote

Yes, of course, we have other teachers of the gospel, but Jesus is the Christ, and it is he that appoints those who are in the five fold ministry, including teachers.

Yeshua is the Messiah, and he never advocated anti-Torah teachers to take position in the driver's seat, in fact he was highly against it. He clearly stated in Matt 23 that even though the current Pharisees are corrupted and hypocritical, that we must observe and practice the Torah according to their teachings. This commandment was not new, as Yeshua was merely highlighting the commandment that G-d gave in Deuteronomy 17.

Quote

“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

These verses are exactly what Im talking about. The trickery of men is the anti-Torah heresy that has been plaguing the believers for 1500 years. The doctrines that have been taught have lead people away from Torah, which is the antithesis of what Yeshua came to do.

Quote

You say:

Quote

We should wash our hands because it is a health issue. Jesus made it clear that eating with unwashen hands does not defile the person, but it is what come out of the heart that defiles a person.

The washing of hands is not a health issue, washing your hands with soap is the health issue. The washing of hands ritual is ritual purity issue.

What Yeshua was talking about was that we can do rituals all day long and them take no effect because we are unclean in our minds and hearts… and that uncleanness projects from our mouths when we speak. Therefore the unholy tongue. So Yeshua was explaining that if we are not clean in our minds and hearts, then what comes out of our mouths defiles us. The washing of hands is to be done outwardly when our inwardly state of being is in tact.

Quote

And you quote the following scripture:

Quote

Ya'acov (James) 4:8
“Draw nigh to Elah, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.”

This scripture doesn't have anything to do with the ritual of wash our hands, but has to do with cleansing our hands of what evil that we do as sinners, and thereby purifiying our hearts.

Yes it does, James was known as “Yaacov the Just” and also “Yaacov the Righteous.” He was one of the Apostles who heralded the the Netzarim movement once Yeshua ressurected and left. Historical facts show that he continued to teach the doctrines and practices of his day. He was a Galilean Jew, and it is a fact that Galilee was predominantly Hasidic and Pharisee. There was no indication of a deviation at any time.”

Quote

This is what the scriptures state in Hebrews:

Quote

performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

The translations you are giving twist the context.

Hebrews 9:6-10
“Now when these things were thus ordained, the Kohanim went always into the first tabernacle, ACCOMPLISHING the service of G-d. But into the second (temple) went the Kohen Gadul (high priest) alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the sins of the people: The Ruach Kodesh (Holy Spirit) signifying this, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and physical ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”

Of course, as the Messiah came, an inner dimension of Torah was revealed, therefore elevating the entire spectrum to a higher level. This is how Torah works.

If you notice in this passage, all that it is talking about is the Temple. The Temple was destroyed for a reason, so that the deeper level of Torah would be revealed, and the spiritual level of Torah would be manifest to a higher level. Therefore, we have no physical temple, suspending all the sacrificial and offering rites and various rituals that the priests were obligated to do in the service at the Temple. We have our bodies, which is the Temple.

We also know that Yeshua reversed all the way back to Melchizidek, who was a Priest and a King. We are all priests in this manner, since the spiritual Temple is still in force.

The Torah also states that G-d said he will make Israel into a holy kingdom of priests. This also indicates what is being said. That since the physical Temple is no longer standing, the commandments pertaining to the Temple can only be performed by spiritual means, therefore we keep these commandments inwardly as the priests that G-d made Israel into.

But that passage in Hebrews is not talking about anything other than the Temple, it is not talking about the rest of the Torah's commandments at all.

Quote

You say:

Quote

The Written Torah is incomplete without the Oral Torah.

Jesus said all is fulfilled in the following scriptures:

Quote

Love in Christ,
Marty

Do you realize that Yeshua was quoting one of the most important creed of Judaism? The Shema prayer that is recited two times a day by every observant Jew?

It is most interesting that when those Pharisees challenged Yeshua to see his response that he recited one of the most important prayers, scriptures of all Torah Judaism.

And Yeshua's response was that the entire Torah hangs on those two commandments. If the entire Torah hangs on those two, this means that all of the commandments are contained within the two, and that they are all infused by those two.

The entire Torah instructs us HOW the Father wants us to Love Him and our neighbors as self. And that is why the scriptures tell us that love is the whole of the Law.

Shalom

January 14, 2010 at 10:33 pm#170148

Participant

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 15 2010,04:30)

942767,Jan. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

Hi asher:

But I don't see a problem with trying to have compassion on an animal when it is being buthered, but I don't see it as a law that is binding on the body of Christ.

Hello.

Quote

You say relative to the Teffilin and the Mezuzah:

Quote

If it was not meant to be taken literally then Yeshua would not have approved of its literal observance. No?

Where in the bible do you see that these procedures were being observed? It is in our heart and our mind that the commandments of God need be written.

The Shema states that

Deuteronomy 6:6
“And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart.”

then it says

Deuteronomy 6:8-9
“And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be TOTOFOT between your eyes. And you shall write them on the MEZUZOT of your house and on your gates.”

Here we see, not only is it to be in our heart, but it is also to be bound on our hand and between our eyes and on our door posts of every gate.

Then to further show what Im saying, the rest of the Shema shows a further detail of its spiritual and physical nature.

Deuteronomy 11:18
“So you shall place these words of Mine, on your heart and on your soul;”

Here we see again, the spiritual nature of “placing” within the heart.

And then directly after we see…

Deuteronomy 11:18 and then 20
“And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be TOTOFOT between your eyes.

…..And you shall inscribe them on the MEZUZOT of your house and on your gates.”

Clearly after we read a spiritual instruction, we see a physical action also required to perform.

Quote

Yes, of course, we have other teachers of the gospel, but Jesus is the Christ, and it is he that appoints those who are in the five fold ministry, including teachers.

Quote

“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

Quote

You say:

Quote

We should wash our hands because it is a health issue. Jesus made it clear that eating with unwashen hands does not defile the person, but it is what come out of the heart that defiles a person.

The washing of hands is not a health issue, washing your hands with soap is the health issue. The washing of hands ritual is ritual purity issue.

Quote

And you quote the following scripture:

Quote

Ya'acov (James) 4:8
“Draw nigh to Elah, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.”

This scripture doesn't have anything to do with the ritual of wash our hands, but has to do with cleansing our hands of what evil that we do as sinners, and thereby purifiying our hearts.

Quote

This is what the scriptures state in Hebrews:

Quote

The translations you are giving twist the context.

Of course, as the Messiah came, an inner dimension of Torah was revealed, therefore elevating the entire spectrum to a higher level. This is how Torah works.

We also know that Yeshua reversed all the way back to Melchizidek, who was a Priest and a King. We are all priests in this manner, since the spiritual Temple is still in force.

But that passage in Hebrews is not talking about anything other than the Temple, it is not talking about the rest of the Torah's commandments at all.

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You say:

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The Written Torah is incomplete without the Oral Torah.

Jesus said all is fulfilled in the following scriptures:

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Love in Christ,
Marty

Do you realize that Yeshua was quoting one of the most important creed of Judaism? The Shema prayer that is recited two times a day by every observant Jew?

It is most interesting that when those Pharisees challenged Yeshua to see his response that he recited one of the most important prayers, scriptures of all Torah Judaism.

The entire Torah instructs us HOW the Father wants us to Love Him and our neighbors as self. And that is why the scriptures tell us that love is the whole of the Law.

Shalom

Hi Asher:

I am not Anti-Torah, but what I written relative to what we have discussed.

Love in Christ,
Marty

January 14, 2010 at 11:16 pm#170162