- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2014,10:41) Quote (terraricca @ June 22 2014,04:58) Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2014,01:44) T, The prophets received their orders from out of this world therefore they were sent from out of this world. Sent means ordered and from is telling the hearer what follows is the source of those orders. That is why is written that John was sent from God. God was above when he gave John those orders so the source is also above and so John was sent from above means the same thing.
Kthis world as two option but all still is as it was when Adam sinned
the division of the two world are only in their views like one is of God's will, the other is of men's will ;
God does not give orders unless he is ready to destroy your wickedness ;
Quote The prophets received their orders from out of this world therefore they were sent from out of this world. how could the words of God be out of his own creation
T,God existed before his creation but I did not claim they were out of creation but only out of this world. I used those words to show his orders are not of this just as Jesus and his disciples are not of this world. John received his baptism from out of this world because it is not of this world but is instead from God. John was sent from God, where is God but above. When Scripture tells us John was sent from God it means John was ordered by God.
KQuote I used those words to show his orders are not of this just as Jesus and his disciples are not of this world Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
this is what John the baptist says about Jesus ;above
Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Jn 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world.
Jn 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
Jn 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world,Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you.
Jn 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
Jn 17:13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.
Jn 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.in what sense does those scriptures lign up with your view
Mike,
Luke 1:26 is similar and probably should be translated from instead of by. On the other hand John 1:6 has a different word translated from. Zechariah 7:12 is another interesting one. There is a lot to look at though.
Quote (terraricca @ June 22 2014,10:57) Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2014,10:41) Quote (terraricca @ June 22 2014,04:58) Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2014,01:44) T, The prophets received their orders from out of this world therefore they were sent from out of this world. Sent means ordered and from is telling the hearer what follows is the source of those orders. That is why is written that John was sent from God. God was above when he gave John those orders so the source is also above and so John was sent from above means the same thing.
Kthis world as two option but all still is as it was when Adam sinned
the division of the two world are only in their views like one is of God's will, the other is of men's will ;
God does not give orders unless he is ready to destroy your wickedness ;
Quote The prophets received their orders from out of this world therefore they were sent from out of this world. how could the words of God be out of his own creation
T,God existed before his creation but I did not claim they were out of creation but only out of this world. I used those words to show his orders are not of this just as Jesus and his disciples are not of this world. John received his baptism from out of this world because it is not of this world but is instead from God. John was sent from God, where is God but above. When Scripture tells us John was sent from God it means John was ordered by God.
KQuote I used those words to show his orders are not of this just as Jesus and his disciples are not of this world Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
this is what John the baptist says about Jesus ;above
Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Jn 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world.
Jn 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
Jn 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world,Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you.
Jn 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
Jn 17:13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.
Jn 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.in what sense does those scriptures lign up with your view
T,Almost everything Jesus teaches is about seeking and God's righteousness and kingdom and unless I have solid evidence otherwise I act as that is what he is teaching.
Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2014,11:16) Quote (terraricca @ June 22 2014,10:57) Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2014,10:41) Quote (terraricca @ June 22 2014,04:58) Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2014,01:44) T, The prophets received their orders from out of this world therefore they were sent from out of this world. Sent means ordered and from is telling the hearer what follows is the source of those orders. That is why is written that John was sent from God. God was above when he gave John those orders so the source is also above and so John was sent from above means the same thing.
Kthis world as two option but all still is as it was when Adam sinned
the division of the two world are only in their views like one is of God's will, the other is of men's will ;
God does not give orders unless he is ready to destroy your wickedness ;
Quote The prophets received their orders from out of this world therefore they were sent from out of this world. how could the words of God be out of his own creation
T,God existed before his creation but I did not claim they were out of creation but only out of this world. I used those words to show his orders are not of this just as Jesus and his disciples are not of this world. John received his baptism from out of this world because it is not of this world but is instead from God. John was sent from God, where is God but above. When Scripture tells us John was sent from God it means John was ordered by God.
KQuote I used those words to show his orders are not of this just as Jesus and his disciples are not of this world Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
this is what John the baptist says about Jesus ;above
Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Jn 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world.
Jn 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
Jn 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world,Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you.
Jn 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
Jn 17:13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.
Jn 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.in what sense does those scriptures lign up with your view
T,Almost everything Jesus teaches is about seeking and God's righteousness and kingdom and unless I have solid evidence otherwise I act as that is what he is teaching.
KGod created the world of men ,but the fact that men when astray does not change that fact, so what has really happen in time is that a division was created within all men
those that search for God and the others that did not ,and it is that, that the scriptures called the and became called THE WORLD so that it is distinct by the wickedness of the great majority of men ;
and so the distinction became in each group their action/behavior/ and so became to be known as Satan WORLD and God's world or kingdom
JN 18:36 Jesus answered, “ My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”
MT 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “ Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
MT 13:19 “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
do you understand
Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2014,23:13) Mike, Luke 1:26 is similar and probably should be translated from instead of by. On the other hand John 1:6 has a different word translated from. Zechariah 7:12 is another interesting one. There is a lot to look at though.
NETNotes:Luke 1:26
Or “from.” The account suggests God’s planned direction in these events, so “by” is better than “from,” as six months into Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God acts again.I agree with you that, in this case, the angel most likely did come FROM heaven, and so “from” would be a better translation.
But on the other hand, I agree with the NET comments that “by” is better used to refer to “God's planned direction in these events”. And that makes me wonder why the NET Bible has “from” in John 1:6 – instead of “by”.
Kerwin, just remember the word “DOWN”, that is used in John 6:38. Even if “sent from heaven” could be used in reference to ordered by heaven, as you keep claiming, the word “DOWN” would tell a different story.
For example, even if you could logically say, “Abraham was a man sent from heaven”, to describe the fact that Abraham's orders came from heaven, you still wouldn't be able to logically say, “Abraham was a man sent DOWN from heaven“.
The word “DOWN” would clearly make a statement that Abraham was once IN heaven, but then was sent DOWN from there.
Then, if you add to that statement: “Abraham was a man sent DOWN from heaven, and then later ASCENDED to WHERE HE WAS BEFORE“, it would UNDENIABLY be telling us that Abraham not only physically came DOWN from heaven, but later ascended back UP to heaven.
Then if you added another scripture which specifically detailed how certain men SAW Abraham ascending to heaven, there would be no way any sensible person could understand all those things in a way other than, “Abraham literally came down from heaven, and later literally went back up to heaven.”
And THAT is the case with Jesus.
So right now you are doing a lot of research and twisting (changing “John was sent from/by God“ to “John was sent from heaven“) for nothing. Because Jesus didn't merely claim to be a man sent “from heaven”. He claimed to have COME DOWN FROM heaven, and then claimed that he would later ASCEND BACK TO HEAVEN. And then, his disciples actually saw the fulfillment of that latter claim.
So you have a ton of hurdles to overcome – and you haven't yet been able to even overcome the first “from heaven” hurdle that you've been working on.
Don't you think it would be better to just accept the words of your Lord for what they said? I mean, if your Lord and Savior said he came DOWN FROM HEAVEN, and that he would ASCEND TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE, and then men watched as that latter thing happened……… doesn't it make perfect logical sense to just BELIEVE that your Lord came down from heaven, and then went back there?
I know that you would easily accept these scriptural truths if not for your own personal desires for who Jesus should and shouldn't be.
Mike,
Quote But on the other hand, I agree with the NET comments that “by” is better used to refer to “God's planned direction in these events”. And that makes me wonder why the NET Bible has “from” in John 1:6 – instead of “by”. In John 1:6 the Koine Greek word means presence and to me it translates more like John was sent from the presence of God. “by” would mean John was by God. From this and other verses Jews and maybe the Greeks of that time had strange ways of thinking at that time and we moderns seem to be more literal that even the Greeks.
apostelló means “I send forth, send (as a messenger, commission, etc.), send away, dismiss.”
para means gen: from; dat: beside, in the presence of; acc: alongside of.
God is a genitive noun.
It looks to complicated for me to figure it out easily and the benefit of doing so look to small to worth the cost so I just stick to the translators choice which works in English.
Mike,
Quote
For example, even if you could logically say, “Abraham was a man sent from heaven”, to describe the fact that Abraham's orders came from heaven, you still wouldn't be able to logically say, “Abraham was a man sent DOWN from heaven”.That is my first thought as well but we are speaking of foreigners, with that alien mindset, doing the actual speaking and writing and of translators with their bias. I assuming Scribes that did a word for word copy with no editing. The history of the AV of the KJV shows that is unlikely.
Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2014,13:20) It looks to complicated for me to figure it out easily and the benefit of doing so look to small to worth the cost so I just stick to the translators choice which works in English.
Very good, Kerwin.So just accept that John was sent BY God, since he was never actually IN heaven before God sent him to the wilderness to baptize.
And accept that Jesus himself came DOWN FROM heaven, and later ASCENDED back to where he was before, ie: heaven.
Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2014,13:26) Mike, Quote
For example, even if you could logically say, “Abraham was a man sent from heaven”, to describe the fact that Abraham's orders came from heaven, you still wouldn't be able to logically say, “Abraham was a man sent DOWN from heaven”.That is my first thought as well but we are speaking of foreigners, with that alien mindset, doing the actual speaking and writing and of translators with their bias.
Okay, if that is your “first thought”, then good on you.But instead of looking for that “shadow of doubt” that might be hidden in the “mindset of foreigners”, just read a little farther down in John 6.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
Now you know that nothing is getting “lost in translation”, Kerwin. For the Jews obviously understood that Jesus said he came down from heaven, and they wondered why a man they knew would say such a crazy thing.
The point is that they DIDN'T assume he meant he was “sent by God” – in the sense that John the Baptist was “sent by God”.
Instead, they KNEW he meant that he literally came DOWN from heaven.
Problem solved?
Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2014,06:26) Mike, Quote
For example, even if you could logically say, “Abraham was a man sent from heaven”, to describe the fact that Abraham's orders came from heaven, you still wouldn't be able to logically say, “Abraham was a man sent DOWN from heaven”.That is my first thought as well but we are speaking of foreigners, with that alien mindset, doing the actual speaking and writing and of translators with their bias. I assuming Scribes that did a word for word copy with no editing. The history of the AV of the KJV shows that is unlikely.
Kerwin.Are you truly saying that Moses and all the prophets and apostles,and good christians came down from heaven?
wakeup.
Wakeup,
Scripture declares all good and perfect gifts come down from God and so the if “Moses and all the prophets and apostles,and good Christians” are good gifts then they come from heaven.
In addition Jesus said he and his disciples were not of this world.
Quote (kerwin @ June 25 2014,13:46) Wakeup, Scripture declares all good and perfect gifts come down from God and so the if “Moses and all the prophets and apostles,and good Christians” are good gifts then they come from heaven.
In addition Jesus said he and his disciples were not of this world.
Kerwin.So you say Jesus is not the only one from heaven?
You are confusing the spiritual gifts, and the man from heaven.
Is Jesus not special to you?We christians with gifts are not from heaven,
but the gifts only.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2014,09:02) Kerwin, Which scripture is that again? And does it really say “DOWN from God”?
James 1:17
NET BibleAll generous giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change.
It is a different form of come down.
Quote (Wakeup @ June 25 2014,09:09) Quote (kerwin @ June 25 2014,13:46) Wakeup, Scripture declares all good and perfect gifts come down from God and so the if “Moses and all the prophets and apostles,and good Christians” are good gifts then they come from heaven.
In addition Jesus said he and his disciples were not of this world.
Kerwin.So you say Jesus is not the only one from heaven?
You are confusing the spiritual gifts, and the man from heaven.
Is Jesus not special to you?We christians with gifts are not from heaven,
but the gifts only.wakeup.
Wakeup,It is James 1:17 and is speaking of being born of God and not of the gifts of the spirit. The way it is written is not limiting it to the context of the passage. Remember John's baptism also came down from above.
Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2014,07:13) Quote (Wakeup @ June 25 2014,09:09) Quote (kerwin @ June 25 2014,13:46) Wakeup, Scripture declares all good and perfect gifts come down from God and so the if “Moses and all the prophets and apostles,and good Christians” are good gifts then they come from heaven.
In addition Jesus said he and his disciples were not of this world.
Kerwin.So you say Jesus is not the only one from heaven?
You are confusing the spiritual gifts, and the man from heaven.
Is Jesus not special to you?We christians with gifts are not from heaven,
but the gifts only.wakeup.
Wakeup,It is James 1:17 and is speaking of being born of God and not of the gifts of the spirit. The way it is written is not limiting it to the context of the passage. Remember John's baptism also came down from above.
Kerwin.Are you saying that all christians came down from above?
Did you come down from above?
Remember we are flesh from birth,and still are.Jesus was spirit made flesh.
He dwelleth in heaven before made flesh.
How can you compare us to Jesus?wakeup.
Wakeup,
I do not seek to boast of myself as if God does not boast of me my words are worthless.
To answer your questions Christians come from above even more that the prophets for the prophets only looked forward to being conceived of the Holy Spirit. They only spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit and were merely credited with righteousness.
Ephesians 2:6
Authorized (King James) Version.and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
By their actions believers are strangers to this world of sin.
1 Peter 1:1
Authorized (King James) Version.Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2014,09:27) Wakeup, I do not seek to boast of myself as if God does not boast of me my words are worthless.
To answer your questions Christians come from above even more that the prophets for the prophets only looked forward to being conceived of the Holy Spirit. They only spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit and were merely credited with righteousness.
Ephesians 2:6
Authorized (King James) Version.and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
By their actions believers are strangers to this world of sin.
1 Peter 1:1
Authorized (King James) Version.Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Kerwin.If the mind is renewed,it is not of this world.
The concept of thinking is of heaven,because of the HS.
But the flesh is still on earth.No flesh can be in heaven.
wakeup.
Wakeup,
God created all things so all things come from heaven. There corruption comes from this world.
I believe James is speaking in the spiritual sense and not the physical sense.
Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2014,15:03) Wakeup, God created all things so all things come from heaven. There corruption comes from this world.
I believe James is speaking in the spiritual sense and not the physical sense.
Kerwin.Only Jesus; the word of God came from heaven.
The HS comes from heaven to give us gifts and understanding.We are earthly creatures,but all spiritual undestanding comes from above, according to measure.
Not all are fully filled with understanding.
Each need to labour to have understanding.
To know God and His Son.wakeup.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
