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Hi ALL
I started this poll because there is a lot of chatter about Jesus not being God Almighty yet they cannot tell us “WHAT” he is.
Mike and t8 believe that Jesus is not a mere man yet he is not God.
SO “WHAT” IS HE?
It is imperative to know “WHAT” he is because Jesus own words are “ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” John 8:24
We cannot know “who” the Father or Jesus is unless we also know “WHAT” they are.
For instance we know that God is “a Spirit” John 4:4. Since God is unique and there are none others like him then we know that all other Spirits are not the “same Spirit” that God is.
Yet we know that Jesus is “The Only Begotten Son of God”.
Meaning he is the “Only” Son that shares the same “Spirit” as the Father in being.
That is why the scriptures call Jesus Spirit “the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, that Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus, etc. (Rom 8:9 – 2 Cor 3:17 – Phil 1:19 – Gal 4:6 – 1 Cor 10:4 – 1 Cor 12:13) Yet the scriptures say “there is only “One Spirit”. (1 Cor 12:13 – Eph 2:18 – Eph 4:4)
So to be true to the logic of Fathers begetting sons, a Father begets after his “own kind”, in fact it is the law of seed bearing seed after its own kind of which Mike and t8 deny because they say God doesn't have a “Son” after his own kind or “Spirit” meaning Jesus is fully God in Spirit as the Father and fully man in the flesh as man.
“Only” Begotten Son of God = God
Son of man = man
This is pure and simple logic that t8 and Mike build straw man arguments around by misapplying words like “identity” and “nature” as if to say you can separate the two.
They cannot tell you if their Jesus is God or a mere man because to them he is neither, which can only mean that the Father does not have “an Only Son” after his own kind and that would mean that Jesus is not “The Only Begotten Son of God” to them but rather he is like all the rest of the “gods” or sons of God.
So once again the question is…
“What kind of being is Jesus”?
t8 and Mike cannot answer this. So how can they know who the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are if they do not understand “WHAT” they are?
WJ
AWESOME!
WJ,
They mock what we think, but the alternative is ridicullous.
i have asked that question so many times, and i always get a bogus response.So therefore,
WHAT IS JESUS IF HE IS NOT GOD AND NOT A MAN?
I voted for “angel”, which Jesus clearly is. He is possibly the ANGEL of God who went before the Israelites during their exodus.
He was definitely a MESSENGER of his God, which means he is an ANGEL of his God.
Galatians 4:14
and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.I don't believe him to be Michael, for I believe that Michael, the other angels, and everything else in existence was created through Jesus. He is the firstborn of all creation, FOR everything else was created through him.
And the wording of Hebrews 1:5 doesn't exclude Jesus from being an angel of God, for we know he was a messenger of God. The words, “For to which of the angels did God ever say” could just as easily be taken to mean “For to which ONE of the angels did God ever say”, as if Jesus is ONE of them. It could also be taken as “For to which of the OTHER angels did God ever say”, distinguishing Jesus as the only angel of God to be BEGOTTEN by God directly.
We know angels have been called “sons of God” in at least four scriptures.
And Keith, your premise is all wrong. We don't know “WHAT” God is. We probably couldn't even understand the concept of the kind of Being God is and all that entails. The teaching is to know God, the Person, and His Son, the Person. We are not required to know their “genetic make up”, or as you put it, “WHAT they are”.
And as much as you try to twist monogenes around, the fact remains that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. No only begotten son of anyone has ever been that same “anyone”. If he is the Son OF God, then he is NOT the God he is the Son OF.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2011,14:32) And as much as you try to twist monogenes around, the fact remains that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. No only begotten son of anyone has ever been that same “anyone”.
MikeAnd no only begotten son of anyone is of a “different kind”!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2011,14:32) I voted for “angel”, which Jesus clearly is. He is possibly the ANGEL of God who went before the Israelites during their exodus. He was definitely a MESSENGER of his God, which means he is an ANGEL of his God.
MikeThat is straight out of Watchtower. If Jesus “kind” is “angels” then why do the scriptures say…
For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”*?
Heb 1:5This is proof that Jesus is not an angel.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, “the man Christ Jesus“, Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim 2:5, 6
This is proof that Jesus is still a man.
Mike would have us believe that Jesus was once an angel who was a god with god in the beginning and that God created everything through this angel “a god” who then became human and ceased to be an “angel” (a god) for a time and then ceased to be a “man” and is once again a mighty angel or a “mighty god” sitting in the Throne of God with God.
Does Mike believe in re-incarnation? How can anyone or thing completely change its nature and being and still remain the same person?
That would be like saying if a human named Mike changes into a dog then he would still be Mike. But the truth is he would no longer be Mike because he is not human anymore but is a dog. Meaning he couldn't speak like a man. or think like a man or simply be Mike.
What kind of logic is that? Again it is the false opinion that t8 and Mike share that anything or anyone can be “identified” without “identifying” the nature of the thing.
This scripture blows Mikes theory out of the water…
Jesus Christ THE SAME yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb 13:8
Mike, Did Jesus cease to be an angel to become a man and then cease to be a man to become a mighty angel?
What kind of logic is that?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,13:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2011,14:32) And as much as you try to twist monogenes around, the fact remains that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. No only begotten son of anyone has ever been that same “anyone”.
MikeAnd no only begotten son of anyone is of a “different kind”!
WJ
Nor is any begotten son the SAME BEING as their father.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2011,15:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,13:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2011,14:32) And as much as you try to twist monogenes around, the fact remains that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. No only begotten son of anyone has ever been that same “anyone”.
MikeAnd no only begotten son of anyone is of a “different kind”!
WJ
Nor is any begotten son the SAME BEING as their father.
MikeEven if you say they are not the same being then if Jesus is of the “same kind” yet a seperate being then his kind is still the “God kind”. It would still mean that in nature he is all that the Father is as God just as you are all your father is as man.
This is simple logic that you deny.
If he is not “Gods kind” then he can't be the Only Begotten Son, right?
Now when you realize this and the scales fall off of your eyes then you will see who and what “The Only Begotten Son of God” are! Jesus said he and the Father are One, for which the Jews wanted to stone him and that should give you a clue.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,14:52) Mike Even if you say they are not the same being then if Jesus is of the “same kind” yet a seperate being then his kind is still the “God kind”. It would still mean that in nature he is all that the Father is as God just as you are all your father is as man.
This is simple logic that you deny.
What that would mean is that we have TWO different Gods, Keith.This is simple logic that YOU deny.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2011,16:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,14:52) Mike Even if you say they are not the same being then if Jesus is of the “same kind” yet a seperate being then his kind is still the “God kind”. It would still mean that in nature he is all that the Father is as God just as you are all your father is as man.
This is simple logic that you deny.
What that would mean is that we have TWO different Gods, Keith.This is simple logic that YOU deny.
mike
MikeIt is you that says they are two gods, I am merely showing you that you can't have one without the other.
You can't say Jesus is of “Gods kind” or the “Only Begotten Son” if he is not exactly like the Father in nature and then say his being is different than the Fathers.
The scriptures say they are “One” and that means 'ontologically” they are of the “same kind” or he is not the “Only Begotten Son”.
Your belief says he is not “The Only Begotten Son” because you say he is another type of being, an Angel which means he is of the “Angelic kind”.
So God brought literal birth to “an angel” and then created all things through him and then he ceased to be an “angel” for awhile to be human and then ceased to be a human to be a “mighty angel or mighty god”? That is what you want us to believe.
WJ
Mike, Did Jesus cease to be an angel to become a man and then cease to be a man to become a mighty angel?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,14:23)
That is straight out of Watchtower.
Did you read my post, Keith? The JW's think Jesus is Michael. I specifically addressed this point in my post.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,14:23)
If Jesus “kind” is “angels” then why do the scriptures say…For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”*?
Heb 1:5This is proof that Jesus is not an angel.
Again, I specifically addressed Hebrews 1 in my post, Keith. It is NOT proof that Jesus is not an angel.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,14:23)
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, “the man Christ Jesus“, Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim 2:5, 6This is proof that Jesus is still a man.
No, this is proof that the MAN who gave himself as a ransom is now the mediator between God and mankind. Check with your little dog Toto. Even he disagrees with you on this one. Man is of flesh. Flesh can't be in heaven.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,14:23)
Mike would have us believe that Jesus was once an angel who was a god with god in the beginning and that God created everything through this angel “a god” who then became human and ceased to be an “angel” (a god) for a time and then ceased to be a “man” and is once again a mighty angel or a “mighty god” sitting in the Throne of God with God.
YES, Keith, YES! That is almost word for word what the scriptures teach, and therefore what I believe.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,14:23)
Does Mike believe in re-incarnation? How can anyone or thing completely change its nature and being and still remain the same person?
Really Keith? Isn't that what Phil 2 says? That Jesus emptied himself of the form of God and took on the nature of a servant?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,14:23)
That would be like saying if a human named Mike changes into a dog then he would still be Mike.
Didn't you ever watch the “Shaggy DA”?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,14:23)
What kind of logic is that? Again it is the false opinion that t8 and Mike share that anything or anyone can be “identified” without “identifying” the nature of the thing.
I guess I don't get your point, because you have been having this debate with t8, not me. But being called “god” doesn't in and of itself speak of nature. Men, angels, pieces of wood and stone, Jesus, Satan and Jehovah are all called god in scripture.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,14:23)
This scripture blows Mikes theory out of the water…Jesus Christ THE SAME yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb 13:8
He sure is……………NOW! Jesus changed throughout his existence, Keith. Death use to have power over him, but now it doesn't. He use to have some glory alongside God, but has now be exalted to even higher glory. He was alive as spirit, then as man, then dead, then alive as man again, then transformed into spirit again.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,14:23)
Mike, Did Jesus cease to be an angel to become a man and then cease to be a man to become a mighty angel?
He was an angel of his God from the moment his God created him. He has been ever since, remains so today, and always will be an angel of his God. He ceased to be a SPIRIT angel and became a HUMAN angel, then became a mighty SPIRIT angel again.mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,15:57)
It is you that says they are two gods, I am merely showing you that you can't have one without the other.
It is me who actually accepts the teaching of the scriptures and says their are many gods mentioned. But I also accept the scriptures that teach us the only REAL God is the Father of Jesus Christ – not Jesus himself, or some wacky combination of people.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,15:57)
You can't say Jesus is of “Gods kind” or the “Only Begotten Son” if he is not exactly like the Father in nature and then say his being is different than the Fathers.
Solomon was “David's kind”. Was Solomon David himself? Did Solomon go to war with the Philistines? Did Saul try to kill Solomon?You see Keith, JEHOVAH is the only true God there is. He is the Omniscient Creator of all. “Creator” is not a species. If there is only ONE Omniscient Creator, and Jesus is the Son OF that ONE, then he is NOT our Omniscient Creator.
So he can be as much LIKE our God as you choose him to be. But he cannot BE that same God he is so much LIKE.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,15:57)
The scriptures say they are “One” and that means 'ontologically” they are of the “same kind” or he is not the “Only Begotten Son”.
Prove it. Show me the word “ontologically” in the scriptures. Show me anything that proves your understanding of “I and the Father are one”. And after you do, then use that same exact proof for us being “ontologically” God, because we are to be one with God and his Son Jesus.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2011,15:57)
So God brought literal birth to “an angel” and then created all things through him and then he ceased to be an “angel” for awhile to be human and then ceased to be a human to be a “mighty angel or mighty god”? That is what you want us to believe.
Angel means “messenger”. Use “spirit being” or “spirit messenger” instead. And YES, God brought forth a Son who was a spirit being just like his Father. Then God brought forth more spirit beings like them. The difference being that God is unbegotten, Jesus is the only one DIRECTLY brought forth from God, and therefore begotten by God, and all other spirit beings were brought forth from God THROUGH that first one He brought forth.This is what the scriptures teach, Keith. Deal with it.
Your posts are getting too long. Keep them short and to the point or I'll start “cherry picking”.
mike
all
if Christ was God;Ex 33:20 But,” he (GOD)said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
then we would all be dead by now.
but Christ is not God this is why he said he is the “son of God” not God.
Pierre
It's really just that simple Pierre.
Why confuse things by teaching that the Son OF God is actually the God he is the Son OF?
mike
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 21 2011,20:02) all if Christ was God;Ex 33:20 But,” he (GOD)said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
then we would all be dead by now.
but Christ is not God this is why he said he is the “son of God” not God.
Pierre
Yet Jesus said if you have seen me then you have seen God.What are you saying? That God who is invisible cannot make himself visible? Do the Angels see him? Did John see someone other than God on his Throne?
Just as Moses seen the back side of God because he could not directly look on his face, so it is that we see Jesus as the “visible image” of God or God manifest in the flesh.
Check your scriptures for the Patriarchs and followers of YHVH claimed they seen God and talked to him face to face as to a man.
No mortal, carnal man can see God in all of his Glory and live but to say that no man can see God is a lie against the scriptures and in fact places limitations on an infinite God.
WJ
WJ said:
Quote It is imperative to know “WHAT” he is because Jesus own words are “ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” John 8:24
Keith,The pronoun 'he' in the statement “for if you believe not that I am he” is not in the Greek text. Jesus said, “If you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins.” He said that He was I AM a total of four times in that discourse.
This is why the Jews wanted to kill Him. And this is why Mike and t8 would want Him killed if He was in the world today making the claim.
Jack
Good try Jack,
But you see, you've already conceded that YHWH means “I WILL BE”, not “I AM”.
Remember? Is 43:10? mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 22 2011,16:39) Yet Jesus said if you have seen me then you have seen God. Jesus said “the Father”, not “God”. Then he went on to explain that the Father was in him and that he spoke not on his own authrority, but the Father's. He later explains that he and the Father will dwell in us. Let's do a comparison:1. Father being in Jesus = Jesus is God
2. Father being in us = We are GodAm I right, Keith?
mike
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