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Quote (acertainchap @ June 21 2007,02:17) You put a star before “pride.” Are you indicating that I'm prideful my friend? 
I don't know? Are you? Pride is a problem that everyone fights (if Christian) are you in the flesh Humble? I don't think so! Is Satan humble? Our nature is prideful and that's why I put a star by the word pride. Nothing personal
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,18:43) Hi Job 9:
10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.
12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?Rom 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!Isa 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Who can fully understand his ways?
I am not sure I completely buy into the “free moral agent” deal.
I dont think it is as simple as that. I believe we have a will, but does mans will negate the “sovereignty” of God.
Consider this. Jesus fulfilled a boat load of scriptures that were written of him, some over 3000 years earlier.
Imagine the zillions of possibilties that had to take place for this to happen. Every action in human history had to play out to the day that Christ was born. If one piece of the puzzle was missing then it wouldnt have happened the way that it did.
Some might say this was just the foreknowledge of God.
But if it was all mans descision, then God would not be 'Soveriegn”
One murder for instance could have changed the bloodline of Christ.
I am not saying that we are puppets on a string, but consider how God did in spite of mans will.
Who can explain how anyone could drown the whole human race and not be evil. Worse than that is he knew he would do it before he created man.
Yet we know this was not an evil act of God. For what is evil to man, God is above. He does not come under the same rules as man.
How about God commanding the children of Israel to kill all the women, children and entire citys for his purpose?
What about Nebuchadnezzer? Did he have a free will?
If God is all powerfull, all knowing, and is everywhere all at the same time, and “rules in the affairs of men”, can we truly say that we are “100% free moral agents?
This is an excellent post. I started another thread about “How to love God” relating to these points. At times I feel like I am stuck believing in a God that seems unfair. His sense or morality and fairness seem strikingly different than my own sometimes. His ways truly are not ours and the ultimate test of faith for me is to trust He is the loving God He says He is despite the things I can't grasp or don't agree with morally.The hope within me says that the life after this will prove His love and the insignificance of the former life and our misunderstanding of God's actions will all make perfect sense.
Hi WJ.
You say; If God is all powerfull, all knowing, and is everywhere all at the same time, and “rules in the affairs of men”, can we truly say that we are “100% free moral agents?Very good point, I believe we are not 100% free moral agents. “God is operateing all according to the council of His will”. (Eph.1:11)
Thanks for your input, much appreciated.Blessings.
Quote (kenrch @ June 21 2007,02:52) Quote (acertainchap @ June 21 2007,02:17) You put a star before “pride.” Are you indicating that I'm prideful my friend?
I don't know? Are you? Pride is a problem that everyone fights (if Christian) are you in the flesh Humble? I don't think so! Is Satan humble? Our nature is prideful and that's why I put a star by the word pride. Nothing personal
Just curious what you mean by humble in the flesh.Quote (acertainchap @ June 23 2007,08:14) Quote (kenrch @ June 21 2007,02:52) Quote (acertainchap @ June 21 2007,02:17) You put a star before “pride.” Are you indicating that I'm prideful my friend?
I don't know? Are you? Pride is a problem that everyone fights (if Christian) are you in the flesh Humble? I don't think so! Is Satan humble? Our nature is prideful and that's why I put a star by the word pride. Nothing personal
Just curious what you mean by humble in the flesh.
I mean there is no flesh that is humble. Only when we take on the Holy Spirit are we humbled.to all> God truly did create Good and evil He said He did. Here is a question how could we have truly come to know Good and Evil without experiencing it. it one thing to say we know about something and another to have experinced it . who truly knows it isn't it the one who experienced it.
God has decided to mix knowledge with experience hence the Adam and Eve and Satan beginning. to me God wanted man to experience good and evile not just have the knowledge about it. so he created man in this form for that very purpose in the beginning.
this form of life is for that specific purpose to go us the experiance of Good and Evil needed for true understanding. The Lord God even shortned the amount of time it took after the flood.
shakespire once wrote > the world is a stage and we are the actors, he might be more right then we realize.
and tell me how could we possibly truly know what good is without evil, good explains what evil is and evil explains what good is they give meaning to each other, like up does to down, or right to left. opposits have to exist to give us understanding and meaning.
it's all about teaching, and our God is a good Teacher. bless all who truly seek Him.
Your Brother in the anointing of our brother Jesus the Christ.
GeneHi GB.
You say, “Shakespeare once wrote “The world is a stage and we are the actors, he may be more right then we realize”.I believe he was quite right. We might rightly add, “and He (God) is the author”.
Blessings.
I disagree Gene,
Job 34:10 “So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong. 11 He repays a man for what he has done; he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.I believe this verse makes it clear that when scripture speaks of “I make peace, and create evil” He is referring to a 2nd meaning
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.However I do agree that God allows “evil” to show the consequences of sin.
My opinion – Wm
Hi seekingtruth.
Thanks for your input. I believe God uses evil to accomplish His pupose. As an example, we some times spank our chidren for some wrongdoing or bad behaviour, yet, yes, it is evil to hit a child, but it is done for their good. I think that God uses evil in a similar fashion, it may seem wrong at the time, but it accomplishes Gods pupose.Blessings.
Look at these scriptures of part of Gods creation:
Isaiah 45, 6-7. I am Ieue Alueim, and there is none else.
Former of light and creator of darkness,
Maker of good and creator of evil.
I, Ieue Alueim, made all of these things.(He created evil)
Isaiah 54:16 Behold! I, I created the artificer who blows
into the fire of coal,
And brings forth an implement for his
occupation.
And I, I created the ruiner to harm.(He created the devil)
Prov. 16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own
pertinent end,
Yea even the wicked for the day of evil.(God makes the wicked)
Ro. 9:21 “Why do you make me thus?” Or has not
the potter the right over the clay, out of
the same kneading to make one vessel
indead, for honer, yet one for dishoner?(God makes some for good, some for evil).
Scripure says “All is of God, all is by Him ,through Him, and for Him. Can anything be 'of us'?
Blessings.Quote (chosenone @ April 11 2010,14:29) Look at these scriptures of part of Gods creation: Isaiah 45, 6-7. I am Ieue Alueim, and there is none else.
Former of light and creator of darkness,
Maker of good and creator of evil.
I, Ieue Alueim, made all of these things.(He created evil)
Isaiah 54:16 Behold! I, I created the artificer who blows
into the fire of coal,
And brings forth an implement for his
occupation.
And I, I created the ruiner to harm.(He created the devil)
Prov. 16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own
pertinent end,
Yea even the wicked for the day of evil.(God makes the wicked)
Ro. 9:21 “Why do you make me thus?” Or has not
the potter the right over the clay, out of
the same kneading to make one vessel
indead, for honer, yet one for dishoner?(God makes some for good, some for evil).
Scripure says “All is of God, all is by Him ,through Him, and for Him. Can anything be 'of us'?
Blessings.
CO
what translation are you usingIsaia 45 ;6-7 does not sound like yours,
and your conclutions are out of scriptures and reflect you in sight view of your heart.
Terraricca………The scriptures he has posted read them . GOD plainly say he did create evil as well as good, in fact he created (EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS) and that includes the evil. IMO
Mat 5:39…> But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite you on thy cheek, turn to him the other also.
Read all the way to Verse 5:48.Rom 13:1……> Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is (NO) Power but of GOD: the powers that be are ordained by God. verse 2..> Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordnance of God and they that resist shall recieve to themselves damnation or judgement.
Some times we like to Put GOD over here and Evil over there and try to make our own idea of where this and that fits, but truth is GOD is OVER EVERYTHING that Exists, and can change it, alter it , or do what ever He see fit to with all things.
This is not to say we are not to try to resist evil doing. We should all strive to do good always. But God does allow evil in our lives at times and many times there is nothing we can do about it , Just pray and ask for help in our times of need. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 12 2010,03:32) Terraricca………The scriptures he has posted read them . GOD plainly say he did create evil as well as good, in fact he created (EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS) and that includes the evil. IMO Mat 5:39…> But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite you on thy cheek, turn to him the other also.
Read all the way to Verse 5:48.Rom 13:1……> Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is (NO) Power but of GOD: the powers that be are ordained by God. verse 2..> Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordnance of God and they that resist shall recieve to themselves damnation or judgement.
Some times we like to Put GOD over here and Evil over there and try to make our own idea of where this and that fits, but truth is GOD is OVER EVERYTHING that Exists, and can change it, alter it , or do what ever He see fit to with all things.
This is not to say we are not to try to resist evil doing. We should all strive to do good always. But God does allow evil in our lives at times and many times there is nothing we can do about it , Just pray and ask for help in our times of need. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
geneyou know better ,your believe is of the devil,you carry you father spirit,and you fight against Christ and his father our God and we trust in him and his word,NOT YOURS GENE
WAKE UP AND SEE
Terraricca……..You accuse me of being of the devil , But the devil is the accused of the brethren that seem to fit you more here then anyone else. Go back and reread Isa 45:7 ….> and instead of rejecting what it says, as you do other scriptures, try this time to accept it. It plainly says GOD Created EVIL ,
Let me quote it for You so you wont miss understand it.Isa 45:7….> I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create (EVIL): I the LORD (DO) (ALL) these things.
T , it really does not take much to understand what it says. IMO
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 12 2010,15:24) Terraricca……..You accuse me of being of the devil , But the devil is the accused of the brethren that seem to fit you more here then anyone else. Go back and reread Isa 45:7 ….> and instead of rejecting what it says, as you do other scriptures, try this time to accept it. It plainly says GOD Created EVIL ,
Let me quote it for You so you wont miss understand it.Isa 45:7….> I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create (EVIL): I the LORD (DO) (ALL) these things.
T , it really does not take much to understand what it says. IMO
geneno your explanation is not in line with the scriptures,
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
Isa 45:6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Isa 45:7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these thingswhat it says is that God as created all thing and that he will make is glory know to all either they know him or not.
and that there is no one like him ,
and we know that God may withhold is blessing of rain to the nations that not seek him.wicket people will not be blessed.(only for his purpose)
Terraricca………I don't know what bible you are using, but mine says GOD CREATES EVIL and says He does (ALL) these things. Why do you see fit to change the text to fit you desires. I did not say GOD (IS) EVIL did I? Tell us This did the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil create itself or was it's source from GOD. Who placed this tree in the garden was it own self. T, All things come from GOD both the good and the evil GOD takes full responsibility for all the CREATION and everything in IT, He can change it or anyone He see fit to at any time He see fit. Nothing can be delivered from his hands nothing. That is why He is GOD and WE are HIS CREATION. Why do You think Jesus Said (ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD). There is Nothing impossible for GOD in my opinion except to recreate HIMSELF.
peace and love…………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 13 2010,02:55) Terraricca………I don't know what bible you are using, but mine says GOD CREATES EVIL and says He does (ALL) these things. Why do you see fit to change the text to fit you desires. I did not say GOD (IS) EVIL did I? Tell us This did the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil create itself or was it's source from GOD. Who placed this tree in the garden was it own self. T, All things come from GOD both the good and the evil GOD takes full responsibility for all the CREATION and everything in IT, He can change it or anyone He see fit to at any time He see fit. Nothing can be delivered from his hands nothing. That is why He is GOD and WE are HIS CREATION. Why do You think Jesus Said (ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD). There is Nothing impossible for GOD in my opinion except to recreate HIMSELF. peace and love…………………gene
generead my quote before answering it,
I HAVE ASK WHAT TRANSLATION CO,WAS USING,AND YOU ANSWER NEVER MIND.
SO WHAT is you translation???
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