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To all,
The post that follows is a paper I wrote for my kids. Before I give it to them I would appreciate if someone has any scripture(s) that show that the points I've made are incorrect please post them (please don't just post your opinions).Thank you in advance.
WmWorld-view
•Existence – The complexities of life and the universe requires a creator.
• Source – Assuming then that there was a creator what do we know about Him. The best source that fits what’s observed in the world at large are the Judeo-Christian scriptures they have:
o A plausible creation
o An accurate assessment of man
o Prophecy given long before fulfillment
o An accurate portrayal of history
o A common thread throughout
o Multiple authors agreeing
o The wisdom of love and redemption
Taken together these items provide substantial proof on the validity of scripture.Scriptures – as given are accurate and reliable; nonetheless misunderstandings from culture, idioms, or preconceived concepts can produce perceived errors. To further complicate matters various translations are misleading or even completely in error (in their interpretation from the original Greek and Hebrew), however it is by the whole of scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit that truth can be found.
Traditions – Traditions are so entrenched that for many to even question them is tantamount to heresy. However some traditional interpretations are in error with some even distorting the nature of God. These cause what appear to be conflicts, resulting in some losing the faith, never knowing that there are other interpretations which will harmonize all of scripture.
Does God’s reign – How can evil co-exist with a God who says He is love, if He is in control? The simple answer is that God is not in control of this age. When God gave to man the dominion of the earth, He did just that. And in doing so He limited Himself in what He is able to do on earth to accomplish His will without over-riding man's dominion, By doing so all He has available is; what he had set in place at creation, what He can accomplish through His people (those from all the ages who have chosen to be obedient) and finally to exerting influence upon all people (not by forcing them, but by moving in their situations to achieve His desired result).
Trinity – God is not a name, but is a title to a position. The Father is far greater then all including the Son. He is beyond our reality and is the source of everything. The Son is the image of the Father and contains the nature of the Father (all that can be perceived of the Father by those of us in this reality) and is God’s representative and is in all ways God to us while acknowledging the Father as His God. The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit but somehow the nature of the spiritual reality has “it” existing separately, possibly similar to Jesus being an image of the Father in this reality so the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Father in the spirit realm.
I believe Jesus and the Holy Spirit are different manifestations of the Father. The best I can do is draw a vague comparison to water. If an endless supply of water was to represent the Father and He created a pocket of cold in the water, then a solid chunk of ice will manifest everywhere the cold intersects with the water. If He further creates another pocket of several hundred degrees then everywhere the water is heated will turn to steam. The water will not have been diminished, or changed into something besides water, there would only be different manifestations, of the same water. Now the water existed before the cold, but did not manifest as ice because the “new environment” wasn’t there to support it.
With the foundation of our reality laid, God was manifested in this new reality as everything our reality could possibly support of the Father (but was far short of the whole). Now this manifestation was the pre-incarnate Jesus (“God manifest in the flesh”) having a separate identity but “the exact representation of his being”, manifested at the birth of our reality, He was “supreme over all creation” and “existed in the form of God”, and it was by this manifestation that “the world was made through him”.
This manifestation having the makings of this reality, but with the essence of God, was at the opportune time sent to pay the ransom for all men and fulfill the secret of God, to make possible the age of grace.
This essence of the Father’s corporeal manifestation was emptied of all but the nature of God and impregnated into Mary in a manner that she remained a virgin. This image of the Father was born into a child, not having a sin nature, but fully human.
Man’s makeup
•Spirit – the embodiment of intellect and power. Host to the emotions, influenced from higher sources good and evil, like pools we can tap into them or even come under their power.
•Soul – seat of the consciousness and our will, choses between good and evil
•Body – source of desires, memories, thoughts, and reasoning. Our interface to the worldMan’s purpose – The Father created us to rule under His Son over this creation. The finite nature of this corporeal existence provided an arena to show the angels of heaven the long term effects of satan’s sin and why satan and those who chose to follow him are deserving of the Lake of Fire. It also showed the length that the Father would go to redeem His creation and the Love He has for it.
Worship – An openness and requirement for truth within your soul that results in a realization of the character of God that brings about an emotional response of adoration felt in your spirit as it touches the Spirit of God.
Prayer – We can make our requests unto the Father but He does what is best for the long run within the guidelines of man having dominion. If God gave us everything we asked He would be like a genie in a lamp and we would be controlling Him.
Dispensations – A divine ordering of worldly affairs into ages, periods of time defined by how God interacts with man. Not everything commanded by God to people in one age necessarily applies to people in another age.
10 Commandments – Full obedience to the Law would earn you the right to expect eternal life but only Jesus has been able to accomplish it and in doing so He paid the price for all (He fulfilled the Law). Everyone else must rely on their rejection of self and love for others this is best accomplished through a better understanding of how God provided for all (being a “Christian”) but even an unconscious adherence to the law of love (the “sheep” who helped others) will gain many this gift of God.
Faith – The trust that our will puts into the 'seed of truth' placed in all men, from which there is a rebirth and we are transformed as our minds are renewed (a lifelong process) from living for our desires, to living a life of love for God.
Hope – Joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation and everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Love – Is measured by the estimation of the worth of a person's soul to you. Love fulfills the law, it is selfless, putting others first prior to our desires, wants, and even our needs. Good works done for selfish reason gain nothing while God will reward all works of love.
But for now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.Grace – Is getting what you do not deserve.
Mercy – Is not getting what you do deserve.
Kingdom of Heaven – a body of people where God's will is done right in the middle of satan's domain (the beginning of Christ's ultimate Kingdom).
Sin – Is giving in to the desires of the flesh to gain some sort of pleasure, best defined as doing something from selfishness disregarding its impacts on others.
Forgiveness – Pride will prevent you f
rom realizing just how much we all have been forgiven and “whoever has been forgiven little loves little” and “if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions”.Church – Commonly defined today as the building attended on Sunday with those in attendance being Christians. Scripture defines the church as those who are true believers being fitly placed together to create the body of Christ These attend many different denominations with some attending no service at all
Salvation – ALL salvation is through what Jesus accomplished on the cross, and is found by all who by faith choose a life defined by love and unselfishness; some through the conscious proclamation of what God did through His Son, and others through, possibly even an unconscious, adherence to unselfish love. Not knowing His name does not lock you out from gaining eternal life. It is also why no man can boast (as if they've earned salvation), God by His grace provided the call, Jesus by His obedience paid the price, and all men are saved through love and faith that results in works.
Baptism – In water is an outward sign of dying with Christ to this world and its desires (repentance) and being raised up to new life. It is an act that builds our faith for the true ‘one baptism’; John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19 is used to prove the necessity of water baptism but it should have been translated as making a group of people by immersing them in the experiential knowledge of what it is to be a “Christian”, a relationship to the Father (as the source), the Son (as the image) and Holy Spirit (as the comforter and seal of our salvation).
Sabbath – Saturday is the Sabbath however scriptures indicate that the early Christians gathered on Sunday. The Sabbath observance was ordained by God as part of the covenant with Israel and is the only one of the Ten Commandments not covered by adhering to a lifestyle of love. So the Sabbath can be observed to honor God or realized as one day the same as others, both please God (Romans 14:5).
Tithing – The tithe was a commandment to the Israelites to provide for the priests ministering to them, and for those in need. It clearly required 10% of your increase. I question churches laying claim to something clearly spelled out for Levites, however we are told that God is pleased with cheerful givers, our offerings are best done by helping those who minister to us and to help those in need, going first to those of the household of faith. We will answer to God for how we used what He provided for us.
Jesus’ death – Jesus died on what to us is Wed. evening near sunset the very time that the lamb was slain for Passover. For the Israelites one day changed to another at sunset so Jesus was dead for 24 hours of Thursday (annual Sabbath), 24 hours of Friday (prepared the spices and waited for the 3 day “seal” to expire), and 24 hours of Saturday (the weekly Sabbath), the resurrection occurred what for us would be Saturday evening near sunset. This had Jesus dead at the 3 days and 3 nights just as He had proclaimed as the only sign to be given.
Predestination – God does not know with absolute certainty the details of the future but can with certainty proclaim an outcome based on His power and wisdom to move the pieces on the board to arrive at His desired conclusion.
Death – The soul upon death leaves the body, in OT times the soul went to Sheol, a storage realm for souls awaiting judgment. Since Jesus paid the price for man’s sins He lead the captives free (the ones on paradise side) and now all those who believe in what God did through His Son go directly to heaven to await resurrection.
Judgment – God will resurrect the dead; first will be the Judgment seat of Christ, where all believers answer for the things done in this body, after which they take part in the millennium. After the 1000 years are complete every remaining soul will be resurrected at which time God will balance the books (so to speak). At the great white throne judgment God will separate those found worthy by His law of love for entrance into the kingdom from those to be punished.
Heaven – I do not believe that people are given a second chance, but there will be those surprised by their admittance (sheep/goats), yet there are also those surprised by their entrance being barred, “Lord didn't we…” However scriptures indicate that those given eternal life do not go to heaven for eternity but will remain on earth (the Kingdom of God) ruling and reigning with Christ.
Hell – Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever,
However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed”. Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity
For those being punished, the punishment will be proportional to their “sins” ending in annihilation. Eternal life is promised to believers and gifted to adherents, it is not something possessed by all of mankind. Eternal torment is not torment for eternity but torment to completion with eternal consequences. This concept is in keeping with the justice that God requires but with the Love that God is.
Lake of Fire – I believe that when sin was first found in satan it was only apparent to God. The trouble was God knew that the sin in satan would spread and ruin all of Heaven itself. So He created the Lake of Fire to destroy the irredeemable (which I believe that those exposed to Gods glory and still allow sin a place cannot be redeemed). But if He were to throw satan in prior to his sins being apparent to the rest of Heavens inhabitants, they would not see the Love and Justice of God as obviously satan was popular and I do not believe that satan had done anything openly evil (something Heaven’s inhabitants probably didn't understand anyway).
I believe it was at this point God created man with the express purpose of exposing what sin would do if allowed to run unchecked and to show the length He would go and the price He would pay to redeem His creation if it was possible.
We know that God has His faithful angels and we're told satan has his but I believe that there are still those sitting on the fence. In Revelation where we are told that war breaks out in heaven and this is where I think the host of heaven have had their fill of satan's ways and expel him and his from heaven.
Now God, who would have been reduced in stature had He have tried to explain His actions, is glorified for His; Grace, Wisdom, Holiness, Love and Forgiveness. He has also gained more sons proven through fire than He lost to satan.
Now all of creation is purged and the Father becomes all in all.
Summary – I do not believe I have all truth despite having searched for it for over 30 years now. I also believe I have errors in what I believe to be true, having been deceived despite; my best efforts, asking God for guidance, and being willing to forsake any and all beliefs to find it. But God looks on the heart He knows my deep desire for truth and I believe He is pleased despite any mistakes I may have made.
Dad
Wm! Good letter. I would add that the trinity is a man made doctrine and not of God.
It was Ouintus Septimus Florence Tertullian who in the third century came up with it. And Constantine made it Law. Changed the Calendar from Gods to the Roman. The year starts in the middle of winter, while Gods starts in the Spring. Day start at midnight, Gods starts at dawn. All Holy Days are Holidays like Christmas and Easter. All of Gods Holy Days are listed in Lev. 23 The Sabbath was changed to Sunday. Any one owning a Bible was put to death. You are right as far as the Sabbath is concerned, that was a covenant for the Jewish people, however when Constantine changed the day to Sunday, it was under strict orders…..it did not matter if you were Jewish or not….
Peace IreneQuote (seekingtruth @ April 21 2011,13:43) Thanks Irene,
I really appreciate your taking the time to look it over and for your response.Wm
You Welcome and hope your Children appreciate your concern for their moral well being….Peace Irene
HI ST
i really enjoyed reading you open letter so to speak ;because of its length i will only address the paragraph what i have a different understanding to it s view you have explain so clearly,
your first is;Does God reign
Quote How can evil co-exist with a God who says He is love, if He is in control? The simple answer is that God is not in control of this age first God is well in control of all things ,if he would have not been this world would have been exploded in pieces long ago and God will would have never take place and so become a reality,and we would for sure have not be able to become his worshipers.
the Devil as only a temporary licence to do what he challenge God for.and now understand that God does not live on earth ,we do,and it is our battle against evil that will show our love to God,and this is done with his help,the power of men is tolerated by God for being the seed of Satan,and to save the humble spirits in heart.the seed of Christ.
the end results will be God will.
the second is ;Trinity
Quote With the foundation of our reality laid, God was manifested in this new reality as everything our reality could possibly support of the Father (but was far short of the whole). Now this manifestation was the “pre-incarnate Jesus” not a separate being, but God Himself manifested at the birth of our reality, first God is spirit and a being ,with an heart and a soul,emotion,eyes ,ears, and a form of body that separate him from his creation.
Christ being the first of his creation and trough him created all other things .
his Spirit is his will and power but it is not God it is the will of God the reason that it is called holy is only since Adam fall, so that there is a distinction between what is corrupt and what is not and true or holy.
so when Christ received the holy spirit at his baptism by John it was the knowledge of the will of his father that now must be accomplished ,and so did Jesus fulfill that will and received the powers to prove that he came from the father.
there is no trinity there never was a trinity and there never will be one trinity,this belief is not from God nor from Christ nor from the apostles.
your analogy to water to explain God and his creation is far from the truth.
so if you would like scriptures to backup my faith I will give it to you just ask.
Pierre
Pierre,
I know it was a long post which is why I appreciate those who take the time to read it and comment. Obviously I don't expect anyone to agree on all points, but what I really want is scriptures, I know most of the arguments (most I had with myself while coming to the various conclusions) and although I've read through the scriptures countless times over the years I may of missed (or forgotten) something that indicates I made the wrong decision.I'm mostly interested in the topic of God's ruling over the affairs of earth. This is a fairly new belief (couple of years) for me, so most of my life I believed as you. I agree that it is only temporary and there are limits to what satan can do (just like with Job). I still agree as Almighty God He has ultimate control, but He limits Himself having given dominion to another (my opinion). I look forward to your response.
Thank you very much – Wm
ST
Quote but He limits Himself having given dominion to another 1Pe 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.1Pe 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
1Pe 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
1Pe 1:16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
1Pe 1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.2Pe 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
you see it is the ones who believe in there own head that they are ruling on earth anything that have deceived them self.
God purpose is what is going on since the beginning no men or any angel could counter work that,
if we are good we uses us if we are bad he still uses us,just in a different way.
God is well in power and does not give his glory to no one.
Pierre
I agree that God does not share His glory but he can give it; John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began
Nobody wrested dominion from God, He gave man dominion and I believe that man gave it to satan when he fell. Luke 4:6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
It is to the glory of God that He did not take back control the first time man messed up and it is the the glory of the Father that He has built His “Church” in the middle of satan's controlled dominion.
At least that's my opinion, I want to thank you for your time and efforts it is appreciated.
Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 22 2011,14:23) I agree that God does not share His glory but he can give it; John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began Nobody wrested dominion from God, He gave man dominion and I believe that man gave it to satan when he fell. Luke 4:6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
It is to the glory of God that He did not take back control the first time man messed up and it is the the glory of the Father that He has built His “Church” in the middle of satan's controlled dominion.
At least that's my opinion, I want to thank you for your time and efforts it is appreciated.
Wm
STthat scripture does not talks about God glory ,but the glory Christ had before he came to earth,
Ps 4:2 How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame ?
How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ?Ps 8:1 O LORD, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!
You have set your glory
above the heavens.
1Co 11:7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of manthe women also is the glory of man does it take away man s glory ? not at all.
render to God what belong to God and to Christ his son what belongs to him.
Pierre
Hi William,
You know that I agree with you in many things and you have written your beliefs well…kudos. I do question this part though:
Quote With the foundation of our reality laid, God was manifested in this new reality as everything our reality could possibly support of the Father (but was far short of the whole). Now this manifestation was the “pre-incarnate Jesus” not a separate being, but God Himself manifested at the birth of our reality, it was by this manifestation that He created all things in creation. John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.That verse shows two different beings, imo.
Love ya bro,
KathiKathi,
I recant, I recant!…
Well actually I missed editing the “not a separate being” out of this letter after Mike had pointed it out to me some time ago after I had briefly explored that line of thinking. I gave it a lot of consideration after Mike pointed it out and determined that my original line of thinking was a better fit anyway. below I've updated this topic to reflect that thought.
With the foundation of our reality laid, God was manifested in this new reality as everything our reality could possibly support of the Father (but was far short of the whole). Now this manifestation was the pre-incarnate Jesus (“God manifest in the flesh”) having a separate identity but “the exact representation of his being”, manifested at the birth of our reality, He was 'supreme over all creation' and “existed in the form of God”, and it was by this manifestation that 'the world was made through him'.
Thanks Sis, I missed that one.
Quote (terraricca @ April 22 2011,05:04) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 22 2011,14:23) I agree that God does not share His glory but he can give it; John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began Nobody wrested dominion from God, He gave man dominion and I believe that man gave it to satan when he fell. Luke 4:6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
It is to the glory of God that He did not take back control the first time man messed up and it is the the glory of the Father that He has built His “Church” in the middle of satan's controlled dominion.
At least that's my opinion, I want to thank you for your time and efforts it is appreciated.
Wm
STthat scripture does not talks about God glory ,but the glory Christ had before he came to earth,
Ps 4:2 How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame ?
How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ?Ps 8:1 O LORD, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!
You have set your glory
above the heavens.
1Co 11:7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of manthe women also is the glory of man does it take away man s glory ? not at all.
render to God what belong to God and to Christ his son what belongs to him.
Pierre
Pierre,
Sorry I must be missing something in the translation, I do not understand the point your trying to make. I can be dense at times so if you want to ask in a different way I will try to answer.Thanks, Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 23 2011,09:58) Quote (terraricca @ April 22 2011,05:04) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 22 2011,14:23) I agree that God does not share His glory but he can give it; John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began Nobody wrested dominion from God, He gave man dominion and I believe that man gave it to satan when he fell. Luke 4:6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
It is to the glory of God that He did not take back control the first time man messed up and it is the the glory of the Father that He has built His “Church” in the middle of satan's controlled dominion.
At least that's my opinion, I want to thank you for your time and efforts it is appreciated.
Wm
STthat scripture does not talks about God glory ,but the glory Christ had before he came to earth,
Ps 4:2 How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame ?
How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ?Ps 8:1 O LORD, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!
You have set your glory
above the heavens.
1Co 11:7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of manthe women also is the glory of man does it take away man s glory ? not at all.
render to God what belong to God and to Christ his son what belongs to him.
Pierre
Pierre,
Sorry I must be missing something in the translation, I do not understand the point your trying to make. I can be dense at times so if you want to ask in a different way I will try to answer.Thanks, Wm
STread first your first sentence ,then read my first sentence,
and then go on.
Pierre
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 22 2011,00:13) Kathi,
I recant, I recant!… Well actually I missed editing the “not a separate being” out of this letter after Mike had pointed it out to me some time ago after I had briefly explored that line of thinking. I gave it a lot of consideration after Mike pointed it out and determined that my original line of thinking was a better fit anyway. below I've updated this topic to reflect that thought.
With the foundation of our reality laid, God was manifested in this new reality as everything our reality could possibly support of the Father (but was far short of the whole). Now this manifestation was the pre-incarnate Jesus (“God manifest in the flesh”) having a separate identity but “the exact representation of his being”, manifested at the birth of our reality, He was 'supreme over all creation' and “existed in the form of God”, and it was by this manifestation that 'the world was made through him'.
Thanks Sis, I missed that one.
I am glad to helpHave a great weekend.
Love ya bro,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ April 21 2011,16:22) Hi William, You know that I agree with you in many things and you have written your beliefs well…kudos. I do question this part though:
Quote With the foundation of our reality laid, God was manifested in this new reality as everything our reality could possibly support of the Father (but was far short of the whole). Now this manifestation was the “pre-incarnate Jesus” not a separate being, but God Himself manifested at the birth of our reality, it was by this manifestation that He created all things in creation. John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.That verse shows two different beings, imo.
Love ya bro,
Kathi
KathiWhy? What about the Holy Spirit? Is he a different being also?
WJ
Keith,
I don't want to sabotage William's thread. Bring this up in another thread and let me know where to go with a PM. OK?Kathi
heaven,
Unfortunately in doing so it dropped it from my search screens, I just stumbled across it (not upset just FYI).Thanks, Wm
To All,
I'm not really looking to defend my position (the purpose of 'The Hot Seat'), I'm sincerely looking for input on scriptures that others feel may indicate I have missed, forgotten, or misinterpreted something. I must say I am somewhat dis-appointed that so few have taken the time to help out, but as I hope to clean this up and present it to my boys by Christmas (and I don't want to be teaching them false doctrine). I ask (for the final time) to any who are willing to help, look it over and if you feel that there is a scripture that indicates I'm in error then please post it.This site is about “testing all doctrines” and that's what I'm looking for (not an endless debate) I know I'm asking a lot but I want to assure those who respond that your time and efforts are greatly appreciated. I'll re-post my 'letter to my kids' as it has evolved over the last 6 months.
Thanks, Wm
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