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Seeking said:
Quote Our argument is with you because you denied the desire had to conceive to be sin. Seeking,
You got things mixed up my bro. You are saying that I deny that desire had to conceive to be sin. I said just the opposite. I have copied and pasted that post to Nick,Nick thinks:
Quote It does not say desires always are followed [by sin] . Oh yes it does Nick. It says that when desire conceives it gives birth to sin. Jesus never sinned. Therefore, He never had the desire to sin.
Now Seeking said:
Quote Then you offered, “No one has said that every encounter leads to conception.” So tell me what you mean by”encounter”. Maybe this is where the misunderstanding has occurred.
thinker
Hi TT,
Does every desire conceive?
If it does can we not resist desire?2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.If you cannot yet you should
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2009,09:31) Hi TT,
Does every desire conceive?
If it does can we not resist desire?2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.If you cannot yet you should
Nick,
The translation you gave for 2 Peter 1:4 is wrong. It says that they had escaped the corruption of the world through lust. The verb is in the past perfect tense. Please see the NKJV and the ESV and the NASB.The “corruption” they escaped was that of the Judaizers. Boy! It's like pulling teeth to get people here to read the Bible in its historical context.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 24 2009,15:22) Seeking,
You got things mixed up my bro…
Thinker,Perhaps I did mix things up.
Let me just lay out my understanding best I can and we can go from there.
It begins here – “Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
My inordinate desire for fame, let's say causes me to consider lying about another to exalt myself. I mull this over in my mind.
Moves to here – Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
I move from thought to action and my desire has conceived. I
act sinfully, or “sin.”So the desire gives birth to action and results in sin.
However, it could, hopefully would go this way instead.
It begins – Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
I take a different approach, 2Co 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
I, therefore, do not sin though tempted. The desire never conceives. Sin was not the inevitable simply because I was tempted.
“Encounter” would be my meeting with temptation.
Again, I look forward to moving into more solid understanding
and look forward to your reply on Trinity Two to my post.Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 25 2009,10:34) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 24 2009,15:22) Seeking,
You got things mixed up my bro…
Thinker,Perhaps I did mix things up.
Let me just lay out my understanding best I can and we can go from there.
It begins here – “Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
My inordinate desire for fame, let's say causes me to consider lying about another to exalt myself. I mull this over in my mind.
Moves to here – Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
I move from thought to action and my desire has conceived. I
act sinfully, or “sin.”So the desire gives birth to action and results in sin.
However, it could, hopefully would go this way instead.
It begins – Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
I take a different approach, 2Co 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
I, therefore, do not sin though tempted. The desire never conceives. Sin was not the inevitable simply because I was tempted.
“Encounter” would be my meeting with temptation.
Again, I look forward to moving into more solid understanding
and look forward to your reply on Trinity Two to my post.Blessings,
Seeking
Seeking,
Your points are well taken and I must consider your approach to James on this issue. But Jesus said that if a man lusts for a woman he has committed adultery with her already in his heart. He may not take action and physically lie in bed with her. But Jesus still calls the desire in itself to be sin. This is what I mean in my saying that desire always gives birth to sin.I am considering your take on James. But it still remains to be proved by you that Jesus overcame an alleged desire to sin. I am convinced that He overcame a legitimate need and that this was the essence of His temptation.
thinker
Seeking said:
Quote Again, I look forward to moving into more solid understanding
and look forward to your reply on Trinity Two to my post.Seeking,
I scrolled all over the Trinity 2 thread and cannot find the post of which you are speaking. Could you please help me with the exact date and time or paste it here? I look forward to constructive discourse with you also.thanks,
thinkerTo All………..This thread says what God cannot do, is against the words of Jesus, because Jesus said all things are possible with GOD, So to say He cannot do something is a false statement, It should be What God choses not to do. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………..gene
Thinker……….Think about where God told Cain, sin lies at you door (heart) , You must MASTER IT. Jesus through the Power of GOD Mastered SIN, Just as we also must. What kind of example would Jesus be for us if He did not really overcome Sin. For He was (tempted) in all manor as we are and yet without sin. But GOD can not be (tempted by sin) right?.
thethinker,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Quote But Jesus said that if a man lusts for a woman he has committed adultery with her already in his heart. He may not take action and physically lie in bed with her. But Jesus still calls the desire in itself to be sin. My take on this would be that I see an attractive women and for an instant admire her physical beauty. Then, I move on about my business. (Scenario one)
Or, I see – admire – undress in my mind – metally satisfy an
inappropriate relationship – “LUST” and, thereby, sin as Jesus outlined it. (Scenario two)In scenarion one I mull the thought to the point of sin, whereas in scenarion two I take the thought captive bringing it to obedience.
Quote This is what I mean in my saying that desire always gives birth to sin. I'm up to speed with your thinking now, thanks.
Quote I am considering your take on James. But it still remains to be proved by you that Jesus overcame an alleged desire to sin. I am convinced that He overcame a legitimate need and that this was the essence of His temptation. In the account of the temptations the food issue is not the only issue. Satan also presented a way other than crucifiion to become king over the earth. Satan also called into question the Father's care for Jesus saying, “throw yourself down” or entrust yourself to angels. The other two situations in no way deal with legitimate needs as much as alternative solutions that would have been contrary to the Father's plan.
A thought just occured to me that the translators perhaps should have use the word “TEST” rather than “TEMPTATION.”
Perhaps then we would have a more accurate understanding of the circumstances confronting Jesus.The Text says that the Spirit had a purpose which was “testing.” -Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted (tested) by the devil.”
G3985
πειράζω
peirazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to try whether a thing can be done
1a) to attempt, endeavour
2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
2a) in a good sense
2b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments
2c) to try or test one’s faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
2c1) to solicit to sin, to tempt
2c1a) of the temptations of the devil
2d) after the OT usage
2d1) of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith
2d2) men are said to tempt God by exhibitions of distrust, as though they wished to try whether he is not justly distrusted
2d3) by impious or wicked conduct to test God’s justice and patience, and to challenge him, as it were to give proof of his perfections.What do you think.
Seeking
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 26 2009,04:40) Thinker……….Think about where God told Cain, sin lies at you door (heart) , You must MASTER IT. Jesus through the Power of GOD Mastered SIN, Just as we also must. What kind of example would Jesus be for us if He did not really overcome Sin. For He was (tempted) in all manor as we are and yet without sin. But GOD can not be (tempted by sin) right?.
Gene,
For me the mastering of sin involves my learning how to stop from sinning. Are you saying that Jesus was like me in that He had to learn how to stop sinning? You're blowing my mind!thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 25 2009,09:29) Seeking said: Quote Again, I look forward to moving into more solid understanding
and look forward to your reply on Trinity Two to my post.Seeking,
I scrolled all over the Trinity 2 thread and cannot find the post of which you are speaking. Could you please help me with the exact date and time or paste it here? I look forward to constructive discourse with you also.thanks,
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 24 2009,09:26)
I am also a Preterist but was labeled a “heretic” on a board before that.Thinker,
I do not know the proper thread for me to unwrap your understanding. I was trying on “What God Cannot do.”
I don't know if I make myself clear or if my posts sound as if I am trying to understand, but that is where I am coming from.
Traditional approaches have not set well with me in the religious venue. Can I just list what I understand you to be saying and you can correct me where I missed it. I do not mean to oversimplify either. Here goes!1) Preterist – I to believe all has been fulfilled and we are awaiting Jesus' return.
2) Trinitarian – I believe Jesus is clearly identified as God in John one. The context identifies Him as “The Word” irregardless of what the word may have meant in the hundreds of other text. I do srugglr with the passages where Jesus speaks of himself as subservient tot he Father, however.
3) Satan in the firey pit – we have no enemy other than our rebellious will.
4) Free will – not clear what your thoughts are there.
5) Salvation – Because of the sacrifice of Jesus and my faith in that sacrifice.
6) Statements made specifically to the Jews and Apostles do not necessarily apply to us. Healing, power to perform miracles, etc.
7) It is only by Faith Alone that we enjoy salvation no works of law. Up until the time of Paul this was not understood.
I have been trying to sort this out through a mirade of posts and I have strained to keep your words seperate from those of others.
Please clarify, ad, and correct as you deem proper.
I am seeking! Think I will be until Jesus comes.
Seeking
Edited by SEEKING on Feb. 24 2009,11:21
————–
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believesQuote (thethinker @ Feb. 25 2009,10:59) Quote (Gene @ Feb. 26 2009,04:40) Thinker……….Think about where God told Cain, sin lies at you door (heart) , You must MASTER IT. Jesus through the Power of GOD Mastered SIN, Just as we also must. What kind of example would Jesus be for us if He did not really overcome Sin. For He was (tempted) in all manor as we are and yet without sin. But GOD can not be (tempted by sin) right?.
Gene,
For me the mastering of sin involves my learning how to stop from sinning. Are you saying that Jesus was like me in that He had to learn how to stop sinning? You're blowing my mind!thinker
Thinker,What is your take on the passages that speak of Jesus learning obedience and growing?
Heb 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became theLuk 2:40 and the child grew and was strengthened in spirit, being filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote In the account of the temptations the food issue is not the only issue. Satan also presented a way other than crucifiion to become king over the earth. Satan also called into question the Father's care for Jesus saying, “throw yourself down” or entrust yourself to angels. The other two situations in no way deal with legitimate needs as much as alternative solutions that would have been contrary to the Father's plan. Seeking,
I grant that food was not the only issue. But you still haven't proven Jesus must have had a sinful desire for His temptation to be real. Let's take a look at the other issues. For instance, Jesus knew that Satan was taking God's promise to protect Him out of context. He knew that if He tempted God by jumping off the pinnacle of the temple that it would result in SPLAT and that the cleaning crews would have to come and scrape Him off the court. For Jesus to act on what satan said would infer that He first be deceived.The same is true about satan's offering Him the kingdoms of the world. The kingdoms of the world were not satan's to give. Jesus knew this. So for Jesus to desire to kingship other than by crucifixion implies that He would first be duped. Jesus was no dupe!
So let's go at this from another angle. The desire to sin implies that one has been first deceived. So I ask you this: Did Jesus have the ability to be deceived by satan? For deception precedes desire.
thinker
Hi tt,
If Jesus was not just like us we cannot follow him.Hebrews 2:18
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Seeking,
Below is what I believe:1. Preterist: All prophecy has been fulfilled. Jesus returned in the generation of the disciples and He is here.
2.Trinitarian: One God in three Persons revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
3. Satan: He was cast into the lake of fire when Jesus returned in AD70.
4. Free will: Only God's elect have a free will. The rest of mankind remains a slave to sin.
5. Salvation: By faith alone.
6. Statements made specifically to the disciples do not apply to us. Example, only the apostles had the authority to baptize. Therefore, baptism ended with the termination of their own ministries. Furthermore, only Hews were required to be baptized. Gentiles were required to obey the revelation of God in nature. So baptism was not required of them.
7. The new covenant age did not begin until AD70
I'm not sure that we should hammer all this out on this thread. But I'll go for it if you want.
your friend,
thinkerHi TT,
APOSTLES comes for the word TO SEND.
Some how you think this also names their role as the only baptisers.
Paul was an apostle but resisted the idea of baptising full time as preaching was his role.Anyone in Christ can and should baptise the willing into Christ
Hi TT,
Do you find tying yourself up in all these dogmatic ropes limits your freedom to think for yourself?Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 25 2009,17:53)
Thinker,You stated – “But you still haven't proven Jesus must have had a sinful desire for His temptation to be real. “
I did not realize this was the task I had undertaken. I thought I had stated the issue was what Satan thought Jesus was capable of.
I had posted previously –
No! Or I didn't make myself clear. Satan banked on Jesus using His power to satisfy His hunger. Jesus would not do so.
I am not at all saying that it would have been sin to satisfy
His hunger.In each temptation Satan relied on the avenues that scripture makes clear – fleshy desire – lust of the eyes – the pride of life. If I can speculate, probably because Satan felt they worked so well on others perhaps they will work on Jesus.
If we accept that Jesus is God, He cannot be tempted
Jas 1:13 … God cannot be tempted with evil…
It would follow that if He cannot be tempted sinful desire must be absent. It follows too that the answer to the next question would have to be NO!
Quote So let's go at this from another angle. The desire to sin implies that one has been first deceived. So I ask you this: Did Jesus have the ability to be deceived by satan? For deception precedes desire. Blessings bro,
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 25 2009,18:08) Seeking,
Below is what I believe:1. Preterist: All prophecy has been fulfilled. Jesus returned in the generation of the disciples and He is here.
2.Trinitarian: One God in three Persons revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
3. Satan: He was cast into the lake of fire when Jesus returned in AD70.
4. Free will: Only God's elect have a free will. The rest of mankind remains a slave to sin.
5. Salvation: By faith alone.
6. Statements made specifically to the disciples do not apply to us. Example, only the apostles had the authority to baptize. Therefore, baptism ended with the termination of their own ministries. Furthermore, only Hews were required to be baptized. Gentiles were required to obey the revelation of God in nature. So baptism was not required of them.
7. The new covenant age did not begin until AD70
I'm not sure that we should hammer all this out on this thread. But I'll go for it if you want.
your friend,
thinker
I appreciate it!! Perhaps another place would be appropriate to unwrap it all. I am open to E-mail if you are.Seeking
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