What do JW’s teach?

Blocked

Okay Ed. I'm with you so far.

How do you explain Jesus himself saying “heaven and earth will pass away”?

November 6, 2011 at 12:07 am#261928

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,15:20)

Okay Ed. I'm with you so far.

How do you explain Jesus himself saying “heaven and earth will pass away”?

Mike

2Pe 3:12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
2Pe 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

look what Peter says ;the destruction of the heavens ; heaven,S, it is plural this I did not seen before ,could this mean that many levels of heaven will be destroyed ?

this could be understand by Christ being in the high heaven with God ,and the 144k that join him ,will make that change,and Satan and his angels trow out so their could be an reorganization there ???

Pierre

November 6, 2011 at 1:56 am#261937

Blocked

I don't know, Pierre. When I joined this discussion, I was under the same impression Mark is: If scriptures say NEW heaven and NEW earth, then that is what they mean.

Ed has since cast doubt on the word translated as “new”. And you, Irene and Shimmer have added things that make me think that maybe I don't know it all.

I really need to look into it more, and God willing, I will.

Right now, I'm waiting for Ed to answer about “heaven and earth will PASS AWAY”, because he seems to have studied this before, and I haven't. I am currently deferring to his knowledge – which is scary for me, because I'm talking about ED after all!

(Just messin' with ya, Eddie :blues: )

November 6, 2011 at 2:38 am#261943

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,18:56)

I don't know, Pierre. When I joined this discussion, I was under the same impression Mark is: If scriptures say NEW heaven and NEW earth, then that is what they mean.

Ed has since cast doubt on the word translated as “new”. And you, Irene and Shimmer have added things that make me think that maybe I don't know it all.

I really need to look into it more, and God willing, I will.

(Just messin' with ya, Eddie :blues: )

I wait and see

November 6, 2011 at 5:13 pm#261962

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,08:20)

Okay Ed. I'm with you so far.

How do you explain Jesus himself saying “heaven and earth will pass away”?

Hi Mike,

Luke 21:33-36 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting,
and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape
all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Hebrews 1:10-12 And, Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth;
and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11: They shall perish; but thou remainest;
and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12: And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up,
and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Here is how Google translates Hebrews 1:11…

“to destroy themselves but you live and everyone as a garment waxes old”

(This bible verse sums it up) Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off:
but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
I hope this answers your question to your satisfaction.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 6, 2011 at 9:20 pm#261966

shimmer

Participant

All, lets just say this is Gods planet, God created it. Its beautiful, and in our hearts we should HOPE that Gods planet remains. The JWs could be right with this.

And Mark, dont be upset with giving your view, your view is welcome Mark, you have such a good heart.

November 6, 2011 at 9:23 pm#261967

shimmer

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Nov. 06 2011,01:21)

shimmer! I agree that the wicked get the Lake of Fire…. However I don't believe that it will burn for ever…. The Scripture in Malachi says that the Saints will walk on the ashes of the wicked… The Lake of Fire will burn until all is burned up…. that is what I believe…
Also since we have a merciful God why would He keep the Lake burning forever…. I think just to know they get the LF is torture…. For them it is forever…When God comes with the New Jerusalem it will be Heaven on Earth…to that time I am forever looking forward to…
Peace and Love Irene

Me too Irene.

November 7, 2011 at 5:19 am#261970

Participant

edj

GE 9:11 “I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.”
REV 11:18 “And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

did you consider those scriptures ??

November 7, 2011 at 5:35 am#261973

Participant

PIERRE,

I consider all Scripture.
Not sure what you're asking here?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 7, 2011 at 6:11 am#261976

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 07 2011,22:35)

PIERRE,

I consider all Scripture.
Not sure what you're asking here?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

it is in relation to what yousaid to mike,on november 4

about the new earth and new heaven

November 7, 2011 at 10:23 pm#261993

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 06 2011,10:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,08:20)

Okay Ed. I'm with you so far.

How do you explain Jesus himself saying “heaven and earth will pass away”?

Hi Mike,

Here is how Google translates Hebrews 1:11…

“to destroy themselves but you live and everyone as a garment waxes old”

(This bible verse sums it up) Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off:
but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
I hope this answers your question to your satisfaction.

God bless
Ed J

Ed,

Ps 37:9 doesn't distinguish whether they shall inherit this earth, or the new one.

And Hebrews 1:11, “THEY SHALL PERISH” seems to support my view.

And you didn't really address what you think Jesus meant by “Heaven and earth shall pass away”.

peace,
mike

November 7, 2011 at 11:08 pm#261998

Participant

edj

where is the prove ??

November 7, 2011 at 11:15 pm#261999

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 08 2011,08:23)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 06 2011,10:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,08:20)

Okay Ed. I'm with you so far.

How do you explain Jesus himself saying “heaven and earth will pass away”?

Hi Mike,

Here is how Google translates Hebrews 1:11…

“to destroy themselves but you live and everyone as a garment waxes old”

(This bible verse sums it up) Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off:
but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
I hope this answers your question to your satisfaction.

God bless
Ed J

Ed,

Ps 37:9 doesn't distinguish whether they shall inherit this earth, or the new one.

And Hebrews 1:11, “THEY SHALL PERISH” seems to support my view.

And you didn't really address what you think Jesus meant by “Heaven and earth shall pass away”.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike,

I turn to Hebrews 12:26-29 in an attempt to answer your latest question…

Hebrews 12:26-29 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying,
Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more,
signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made,
that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a
kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God
acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 8, 2011 at 1:13 am#262001

Blocked

Okay Ed,

I see what you're saying with this scripture. I see where it seems to say that the things that aren't solidly rooted will be shaken from the earth and from the heavens. Ie: From God's perspective, the things that don't belong here.

And that is one way to understand that scripture. And even if we do understand the passage in this way, it still represents only one thing that will come to pass. I don't see where it prohibits the creation of a new heavens and a new earth. And I am having extreme difficulty trying to gloss over the following clear words, which represent only one of the many times this thought is mentioned in scripture:

Isaiah 65
17 “Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.

The bolded word “create” is the same word from Genesis 1:1. If we are to take it as a LITERAL creation in Gen 1:1, then I don't see how we can not take it literally in the verses above.

Plus, consider that it WILL for sure be a NEW Jerusalem that descends from heaven. It will not be a “cleaned up version” of the Jerusalem that now exists in the country of Israel – but a brand new city.

If the Jerusalem God creates will be literally brand new, then what reason do we have to think the heavens and the earth will not likewise be brand new – especially when we are told of this occurance many times in scripture?

One of those scriptures is Rev 21:1-2, where the new Jerusalem, new heavens, and new earth are also all mentioned. It's hard for me to imagine that of three things said to be new, only one of them is literally brand new.

peace,
mike

November 8, 2011 at 2:55 am#262003

Participant

mike

Quote

The bolded word “create” is the same word from Genesis 1:1. If we are to take it as a LITERAL creation in Gen 1:1, then I don't see how we can not take it literally in the verses above.

there are two creation in Gen 1; first one in verse 1 the second one in verse 2 and on from there

Pierre

November 8, 2011 at 4:40 am#262005

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 08 2011,11:13)

Okay Ed,

The bolded word “create” is the same word from Genesis 1:1. If we are to take it as a LITERAL creation in Gen 1:1, then I don't see how we can not take it literally in the verses above.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike,

The word that was translated as 'new', in Isaiah 65:17 is what I call your attention to.
That is because none of them mean brand new; they all mean “ReNew” instead.

Hebrew #2319 חָדָשׁ chadash from 2318: and 2318 is the word that confirms
the definition here as renewed instead of being made brand spanken new.

Hebrew #2318 חָדַשׁ chadash: to be new, to rebuild:- renew, repair.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 8, 2011 at 11:44 pm#262032

Blocked

Hi Ed,

You are right that the Hebrew word “chadash” CAN MEAN “renew”. But it is also the word used to convey a “brand new thing”.

NET translates Is 65:17 as:
For look, I am ready to create new heavens and a new earth! The former ones will not be remembered; no one will think about them anymore.

The bolded part gives the impression of the old ones being REPLACED by the brand new ones.

Here are two other scriptures where the same word carries a meaning of “brand new thing”:
Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a heart of flesh.

We can see that the heart of stone will be completely removed and replaced with a “brand new” heart.

Exodus 1:8
Then a new king, who did not know about Joseph, came to power over Egypt.
This cannot possibly be talking about a “renewed” king, and so must be talking about a “brand new” king.

So now that we know the word can refer to either “new” OR “renewed”, does that change your understanding? Or is there more you haven't yet shared with me?

peace,
mike

November 8, 2011 at 11:45 pm#262033

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 07 2011,19:55)

mike

Quote

The bolded word “create” is the same word from Genesis 1:1. If we are to take it as a LITERAL creation in Gen 1:1, then I don't see how we can not take it literally in the verses above.

there are two creation in Gen 1; first one in verse 1 the second one in verse 2 and on from there

Pierre

How so, Pierre? Isn't it all a part of the SAME, ongoing creation?

November 8, 2011 at 11:54 pm#262034

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2011,09:44)

Hi Ed,

You are right that the Hebrew word “chadash” CAN MEAN “renew”. But it is also the word used to convey a “brand new thing”.

NET translates Is 65:17 as:
For look, I am ready to create new heavens and a new earth! The former ones will not be remembered; no one will think about them anymore.

The bolded part gives the impression of the old ones being REPLACED by the brand new ones.

We can see that the heart of stone will be completely removed and replaced with a “brand new” heart.

Exodus 1:8
Then a new king, who did not know about Joseph, came to power over Egypt.
This cannot possibly be talking about a “renewed” king, and so must be talking about a “brand new” king.

So now that we know the word can refer to either “new” OR “renewed”, does that change your understanding? Or is there more you haven't yet shared with me?

peace,
mike

Quote

You are right that the Hebrew word “chadash” CAN MEAN “renew”.

Quote

does that change your understanding?

Hi Mike,

Nope. But hopefully I have added more to your understanding though.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 9, 2011 at 1:34 am#262036