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Mark, Pierre and all! There are a lot of Scriptures and to sort them all out, only those who have Gods Holy Spirit will understand…. There is no way all truths are being known or even grasped…. God in His wisdom will let us know in due time…..Mark, you say I said sad things to you, are they true? You should know…Why are you denying how bad the Catholic Church is? You yourself said so….Now all of a sudden they are fine?
Not in my shoes….Do you consider the Scripture in Math. to be not what your Church is doing??? The only reason I did all of this is because you were criticizing the JW so much in all of your articles…..when I have met some of them, they are very nice and have taught us some good thongs….Just like Mar. Armstrong has… whether you agree or not…. it is true…..and shimmer says the same things…But shimmer would not stick her head out like I have done…. maybe thats the german in me….Quote
Hi Mike,For the record I agree with the JW's and Irene on this one as well.
If you want to discuss this with me at greater length, let me know?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed! I am curious how did you come to that understanding also?Peace Irene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2011,09:17) Quote (Pastry @ Nov. 03 2011,19:39) Even if the Scripture in Ecc. and Psalms, means for a long time, there is still Malachi to deal with… If God will destroy the earth completely the Saints will not walk on the surface of the earth..
Hi Irene,Can't the saints walk on the surface of the NEW earth?
Mike! I don't kniow….Peace IreneQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2011,10:37) Hi Mike, For the record I agree with the JW's and Irene on this one as well.
If you want to discuss this with me at greater length, let me know?
It seems Pierre also agrees with you, too. So “YES”, I would like to discuss this at greater length with all of you who are here discussing it now.The scriptures Mark and I have listed seem to be fairly clear on the subject, while the ones Pierre and Irene have listed don't seem to NECESSARILY be saying “There will NOT be a new earth”. I can see how they interpret them the way they do, but I'm not seeing “undeniable fact” in their scriptures, like I see in Jesus' words: Heaven and earth WILL pass away.
Perhaps you could list your first support scripture, and let's see if it really CLEARLY says what you interpret it to say, or if maybe you're reading in a little bias just because you've always understood it to be saying what you think it says.
peace,
mikeQuote
Group: Regular Members
Posts: 1294
Joined: Dec. 2009
Posted: Nov. 04 2011,22:14 QUOTE
Oh Irene. I am not taking anyone down. I say what I do not agree with. I do the same thing with my church. You do too. You have said some very bad things about me and my church, what I have said does not come close to the judgements you have thrown at me. The pope is not the anti-christ. You say he is. the RCC is not Babylon. You say it is. You never found an official document showing that the title in your article showing the inscription on the tiera was true. You can't because it isn't. That's taking a church down, and you accuse me of doing it. . Well, what I have been saying all along is coming to pass, and the do-do is about to hit the fan in the middle east, and hopefully Jesus will come and straighten all out. Then we will be one flock, with one shepherd. It won't happen any other way. I can't wait. Peace and love Irene-MarkMark! How did I judge you which you have not done? You yourself have said bad things about YOUR Church…Are you denying that now? I am telling you the truth and you don't like it?
? Are they not worshiping Maria? Are they not believing in the trinity? Are the not saying the Mass? Are you not there with them to say it? Now you are bringing things up I said a long time ago about the RR being Anti -Christ…. Remember now you are bringing this up, I am defending my believe…. The Pope did wear a triple crown called the tiara…with the Latin number 666 written on it…. Also in some very nice Churches Basement, you can seethe torture chambers…. made into a Museums now…. In fact n our Hometowns Basilica at Christmas time we had the nativity scene put up… I past many times the machines they used… Any one not doing what they wanted you to, you were dead….First it was the Romans that killed the Christians by the millions, and later it was the Roman Catholic Church….Ancient History proves it…..And don;t forget, we were there, witnessing some….I will never deny somethings that are true….Georg was an Altar Boy…I sang in the Choir….said the rosary etc….
Quote (Pastry @ Nov. 05 2011,09:26) Quote
Hi Mike,For the record I agree with the JW's and Irene on this one as well.
If you want to discuss this with me at greater length, let me know?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed! I am curious how did you come to that understanding also?Peace Irene
Hi Irene,Through 40 years of studying the bible.
That's the same way I came to realize “The Word” is the “HolySpirit”.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi all. Im not sure either. But heres some verses to think about:
Genisis 9:11 –
“And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth“.
Compare with:
2nd Peter 2:5-
“They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water, through which the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2011,09:37) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2011,10:37) Hi Mike, For the record I agree with the JW's and Irene on this one as well.
If you want to discuss this with me at greater length, let me know?
It seems Pierre also agrees with you, too. So “YES”, I would like to discuss this at greater length with all of you who are here discussing it now.The scriptures Mark and I have listed seem to be fairly clear on the subject, while the ones Pierre and Irene have listed don't seem to NECESSARILY be saying “There will NOT be a new earth”. I can see how they interpret them the way they do, but I'm not seeing “undeniable fact” in their scriptures, like I see in Jesus' words: Heaven and earth WILL pass away.
Perhaps you could list your first support scripture, and let's see if it really CLEARLY says what you interpret it to say, or if maybe you're reading in a little bias just because you've always understood it to be saying what you think it says.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,2Peter 3:10 But “the day of the Lord” will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth
also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.OK; my first piece of evidence is the biblical definition of the word that “elements” was translated from: as used in 2Peter 3:10…
The word that Elements was translated from: should have been translated to English as rudiments; which is what is getting burned-up!Elements: Greek #4747 στοιχεῖον (stoicheion) stoy-khi'-on:
(Strong's) the elements of knowledge , principally: Rudiments.
What gets 'burned up' is the 'rudiments'! (2Peter 3:10)Rudiments: an arrangement unable to perform it's normal function,
(Webster) a fundamental skill, something uniformed. (Gen.2:17)Here, the same translated word tells “US” what it is that is getting burned-up.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col.2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world,
why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances(?),God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgedj
what about ;2Pe 2:5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
2Pe 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;2Pe 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
2Pe 3:12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
2Pe 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.
2Pe 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
2Pe 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.why is Peter quotes the Flood and Sodom ?
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 05 2011,16:51) why is Peter quotes the Flood and Sodom ?
PIERRE,Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1Cor.15:46)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMark, the JWs do have errors, which church doesnt today?
The way I see it, which church comes to peoples doors? How many lonely people who dont go anywhere get to hear the word of God through a JW?
If someone finds God (God calls them), do you expect them to just go along to the local church on their own where they know nobody?
The JWs do nothing wrong. They do what alot of others dont.
Where i have my issue with them, more a let down than issue, is their lack of faith in healing. And following the doctrines of Man rather than letting their own free will and God teach them.
But at least their not hypocrates. They live decent lives from what I have seen. Well the ones I have known.
I have a good friend a JW. She came from a life of drink, drugs, etc. Now, she doesnt want money etc, she only wants to knock on doors and tell everyone what she knows. The town she lived in (about 6ooo people) she said she had to make sure she had knocked on every door, and spoken to every home. Now thats dedication. She has five kids and they all dress up and look good and knock on doors with her. I admire them. Shes done well.
Ed and Irene I think I agree with you on the earth. God made this beautiful Earth, and we should look after it and treasure it and hope in our hearts it will remain.
I remember reading clearly in scripture the wicked dead are sent to the lake of fire to burn in torment forever, and people said thats what happens. I had heard a different side (from the JWs).
So I thought maybe the eternal torment believers were telling the truth. They were the majority. I was angry at God if it was true that those who dont believe in Jesus will be tormented forever. Wheres the justice in that? They never asked to be born. If they do some things wrong – what? It deserves an eternity of punishment? I was upset, I stopped praying. I eventually prayed and told God I was upset about it, and told God I needed to know the truth. God knew my heart. And God showed me he is love. Nothing to worry about. So I trust God now. And I believe we are often tested (our hearts are tested) in ways like this. We either blindly believe what we see or question it. So with the earth, same thing.
Rev 11:18
“The nations were angry, and your wrath came, as did the time for the dead to be judged,
and to give your bondservants the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints,
and those who fear your name, to the small and the great;
and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”I'm not JW bashing. I just simply stated what I didn't agree with. Not all JWs are bad. Not wll catholics, lutherans., baptist, etc. , etc. There are many things in my church I pointed out I don't agree with. I also said before that I think all churches are imperfect. I have also been told on here many, many things by others about my church. I guess it's o.k. to talk about your own church, but never someone elses. I should know and accept when someone says I'm lost for what I believe, but thier saved for what they believe, that God will decide and that is what matters. I'm very sorry. No more.
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 05 2011,17:55) I remember reading clearly in scripture the wicked dead are sent to the lake of fire to burn in torment forever, and people said thats what happens. I had heard a different side (from the JWs). So I thought maybe the eternal torment believers were telling the truth. They were the majority. I was angry at God if it was true that those who dont believe in Jesus will be tormented forever. Wheres the justice in that? They never asked to be born. If they do some things wrong – what? It deserves an eternity of punishment? I was upset, I stopped praying. I eventually prayed and told God I was upset about it, and told God I needed to know the truth. God knew my heart. And God showed me he is love. Nothing to worry about. So I trust God now. And I believe we are often tested (our hearts are tested) in ways like this. We either blindly believe what we see or question it. So with the earth, same thing.
Rev 11:18
“The nations were angry, and your wrath came, as did the time for the dead to be judged,
and to give your bondservants the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints,
and those who fear your name, to the small and the great;
and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
shimmer! I agree that the wicked get the Lake of Fire…. However I don't believe that it will burn for ever…. The Scripture in Malachi says that the Saints will walk on the ashes of the wicked… The Lake of Fire will burn until all is burned up…. that is what I believe…
Also since we have a merciful God why would He keep the Lake burning forever…. I think just to know they get the LF is torture…. For them it is forever…When God comes with the New Jerusalem it will be Heaven on Earth…to that time I am forever looking forward to…
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 06 2011,00:03) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 05 2011,16:51) why is Peter quotes the Flood and Sodom ?
PIERRE,Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1Cor.15:46)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjso what does it mean? that the wicket people will not be physically destroyed
Pierre
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2011,18:18) Hi Mike, 2Peter 3:10 But “the day of the Lord” will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth
also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.OK; my first piece of evidence is the biblical definition of the word that “elements” was translated from: as used in 2Peter 3:10…
The word that Elements was translated from: should have been translated to English as rudiments; which is what is getting burned-up!Elements: Greek #4747 στοιχεῖον (stoicheion) stoy-khi'-on:
(Strong's) the elements of knowledge , principally: Rudiments.
What gets 'burned up' is the 'rudiments'! (2Peter 3:10)Rudiments: an arrangement unable to perform it's normal function,
(Webster) a fundamental skill, something uniformed. (Gen.2:17)Here, the same translated word tells “US” what it is that is getting burned-up.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col.2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world,
why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances(?),God bless
Ed J
Okay Eddie,So, is it your stance that if one scripture clearly speaks of elements burning up, it excludes others scriptures from speaking of God creating a new earth? Why would one exclude the other?
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 06 2011,07:00) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 06 2011,00:03) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 05 2011,16:51) why is Peter quotes the Flood and Sodom ?
PIERRE,Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1Cor.15:46)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjso what does it mean? that the wicket people will not be physically destroyed
Pierre
Hi Pierre,Correct; their (worldly, fleshly mindset) rudimentary philosophy is going to get burned-up.
Making way for their renewal in Christ Jesus, where righteousness will dwell. (See 2Peter 3:13)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,07:36) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2011,18:18) Hi Mike, 2Peter 3:10 But “the day of the Lord” will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth
also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.OK; my first piece of evidence is the biblical definition of the word that “elements” was translated from: as used in 2Peter 3:10…
The word that Elements was translated from: should have been translated to English as rudiments; which is what is getting burned-up!Elements: Greek #4747 στοιχεῖον (stoicheion) stoy-khi'-on:
(Strong's) the elements of knowledge , principally: Rudiments.
What gets 'burned up' is the 'rudiments'! (2Peter 3:10)Rudiments: an arrangement unable to perform it's normal function,
(Webster) a fundamental skill, something uniformed. (Gen.2:17)Here, the same translated word tells “US” what it is that is getting burned-up.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col.2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world,
why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances(?),God bless
Ed J
Okay Eddie,So, is it your stance that if one scripture clearly speaks of elements burning up, it excludes others scriptures from speaking of God creating a new earth? Why would one exclude the other?
Hi Mike,Evidence #2: How does the word that was translated as “New” in both Rev.12:1 and 2 Peter 3:13 define?
Greek #2537 καινός (kainos) kähē-nôs': new (freshness ith respect to age), youthful, fresh, regenerate:-new, young[καινός] (Greek #2537) is also used in Rom.6:4 and Rom.7:6 as well…
Rom.6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness(καινός) of life.Rom.7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held;
that we should serve in newness(καινός) of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.[καινός] should have been translated as “renewed” like [ἀνακαινόω] from 303 and 2537
Greek #341 ἀνακαινόω (anakainoó) ăn-äk-ähē-nô'-ō: to rejuvenate:-renew2Cor.4:16 For which cause we faint not;
but though our outward man perish,
yet the inward man is renewed day by day.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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