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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2011,11:34) Yes Ed, You and Pierre and Irene and Kar and Mark have all taught me in this thread. So, THANKS GUYS!
I know I have a lot more studying to do on this subject, but for now, I am content with my original understanding.
I haven't yet seen any scriptures that would cause me to change my former understanding of “For look, I am ready to create new heavens and a new earth! The former ones will not be remembered; no one will think about them anymore.”
But this is what a scriptural discussion should be like. We all behaved like Christians and discussed our differences as such.
Hi Mike,My goal is to get others to understand why I have come to the conclusions I have.
It is always one's own choice to believe as they want. Old views are hard to change.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2011,11:34) Yes Ed, You and Pierre and Irene and Kar and Mark have all taught me in this thread. So, THANKS GUYS!
I know I have a lot more studying to do on this subject, but for now, I am content with my original understanding.
I haven't yet seen any scriptures that would cause me to change my former understanding of “For look, I am ready to create new heavens and a new earth! The former ones will not be remembered; no one will think about them anymore.”
But this is what a scriptural discussion should be like. We all behaved like Christians and discussed our differences as such.
Mikeboll,Yes, I believe this is about how this is suppose to be. One person stating what they believe, and another stating what they believe and the scriptures supporting it. Even though they don't agree sometimes, maybe a better understanding of each other, sometimes “agreeing to disagree” in a civil way. Honestly, nobody has the total truth IMO. I think if you did you would crush under the weight, or this life would be unbearable. Anyway, I do know you better in a positive way. One day we will know everything. This lady my wife was treating in the hospital the other day was telling her of a near death experience she had when she was young. She said she literally died, and she said what other people have said, that she was above and could hear everything being said, and the doctor pronouncing her dead. She described the light above and wanting to go to it, and she said that almost by instinct knew that “all of the answers were there”. One day we will know the answers. Godbless Mike, hope you and yours are well and blessed-Mark
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 05 2011,11:07) Hi all. Im not sure either. But heres some verses to think about: Genisis 9:11 –
“And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth“.
Compare with:
2nd Peter 2:5-
“They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water, through which the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men”.
Hey Shimmer,Just reflecting on the scripture you posted here. In the first, God said he would never destroy the earth by a flood, which he will not, he promised. In the second, it states that now the earth is stored up for a Judgement by fire. That to me is in line with all the scriptures about the “day of the Lord”. John the baptist also stated that the Lord is coming in Fire, and all the chaff will be burned. The last judgement, separate from the first which was a flood. It also says somewhere that we will be “saved by a curse”. To me, the world has went it's own way, and not followed the path to Peace outlined in Jesus' teaching, and we are suffering for all of our sins. But those who believe will be saved from this by the Day of the Lord because through it, we will be with God while all the defilement, and cancer and pollution and all other imperfections are melted away. I believe on the day God bears his holy arm we will not believe how much we underestimated the true Power of God, and will not be disappointed. This is a personal belief of mine-that we will also be “born again” into the next perfect world with immortal perfect bodies to worship God Forever. I got a 10mm mass on one of my kidneys so I hope it's soon. (and we will walk on the ashes of those who rebelled against God). Peace and Love to you-Mark
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 05 2011,11:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2011,09:37) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2011,10:37) Hi Mike, For the record I agree with the JW's and Irene on this one as well.
If you want to discuss this with me at greater length, let me know?
It seems Pierre also agrees with you, too. So “YES”, I would like to discuss this at greater length with all of you who are here discussing it now.The scriptures Mark and I have listed seem to be fairly clear on the subject, while the ones Pierre and Irene have listed don't seem to NECESSARILY be saying “There will NOT be a new earth”. I can see how they interpret them the way they do, but I'm not seeing “undeniable fact” in their scriptures, like I see in Jesus' words: Heaven and earth WILL pass away.
Perhaps you could list your first support scripture, and let's see if it really CLEARLY says what you interpret it to say, or if maybe you're reading in a little bias just because you've always understood it to be saying what you think it says.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,2Peter 3:10 But “the day of the Lord” will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth
also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.OK; my first piece of evidence is the biblical definition of the word that “elements” was translated from: as used in 2Peter 3:10…
The word that Elements was translated from: should have been translated to English as rudiments; which is what is getting burned-up!Elements: Greek #4747 στοιχεῖον (stoicheion) stoy-khi'-on:
(Strong's) the elements of knowledge , principally: Rudiments.
What gets 'burned up' is the 'rudiments'! (2Peter 3:10)Rudiments: an arrangement unable to perform it's normal function,
(Webster) a fundamental skill, something uniformed. (Gen.2:17)Here, the same translated word tells “US” what it is that is getting burned-up.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col.2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world,
why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances(?),God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,I have read before here I believe that you consider the King James version of the Bible the divinely inspired translation of the Bible. I got this from it-
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
So, it states in our kings english language-
“the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. “
I do not understand how you translate this into the earth not being burned up, like I believe this directly states. It also says-
“[Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved,”
It seems to me one place in the bible not subject to interpretation, and very straightforward, and in line with what Jesus also states “The heavans and the earth will pass away”. Peace-Mark
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2011,16:45) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 07 2011,19:55) mike Quote The bolded word “create” is the same word from Genesis 1:1. If we are to take it as a LITERAL creation in Gen 1:1, then I don't see how we can not take it literally in the verses above. there are two creation in Gen 1; first one in verse 1 the second one in verse 2 and on from there
Pierre
How so, Pierre? Isn't it all a part of the SAME, ongoing creation?
Mikethe way I understand it is that God created the foundation that will not be shaken called the entire universe ,(Christ,angels, solar systems ,all)
then he comes back and looks at the earth this is now verse 2 of Gen 1
so all that will be shaken is now the earth (what is on it men and all what was created in those 6 days )and what is around it (Satan and his angels (have been cast down to earth ) not the foundation I mean the configuration of planets ect.
just has God did in Noah s time
In place of your fathers will be your sons;
You shall make them princes in all the earth.
PS 46:2 Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change
And though the mountains slip into the heart of the sea;PS 78:69 And He built His sanctuary like the heights,
Like the earth which He has founded forever.Pierre
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,01:11) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 05 2011,11:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2011,09:37) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2011,10:37) Hi Mike, For the record I agree with the JW's and Irene on this one as well.
If you want to discuss this with me at greater length, let me know?
It seems Pierre also agrees with you, too. So “YES”, I would like to discuss this at greater length with all of you who are here discussing it now.The scriptures Mark and I have listed seem to be fairly clear on the subject, while the ones Pierre and Irene have listed don't seem to NECESSARILY be saying “There will NOT be a new earth”. I can see how they interpret them the way they do, but I'm not seeing “undeniable fact” in their scriptures, like I see in Jesus' words: Heaven and earth WILL pass away.
Perhaps you could list your first support scripture, and let's see if it really CLEARLY says what you interpret it to say, or if maybe you're reading in a little bias just because you've always understood it to be saying what you think it says.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,2Peter 3:10 But “the day of the Lord” will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth
also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.OK; my first piece of evidence is the biblical definition of the word that “elements” was translated from: as used in 2Peter 3:10…
The word that Elements was translated from: should have been translated to English as rudiments; which is what is getting burned-up!Elements: Greek #4747 στοιχεῖον (stoicheion) stoy-khi'-on:
(Strong's) the elements of knowledge , principally: Rudiments.
What gets 'burned up' is the 'rudiments'! (2Peter 3:10)Rudiments: an arrangement unable to perform it's normal function,
(Webster) a fundamental skill, something uniformed. (Gen.2:17)Here, the same translated word tells “US” what it is that is getting burned-up.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col.2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world,
why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances(?),God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,I have read before here I believe that you consider the King James version of the Bible the divinely inspired translation of the Bible. I got this from it-
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
So, it states in our kings english language-
“the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. “
I do not understand how you translate this into the earth not being burned up, like I believe this directly states. It also says-
“[Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved,”
It seems to me one place in the bible not subject to interpretation, and very straightforward, and in line with what Jesus also states “The heavans and the earth will pass away”. Peace-Mark
Hi Mark,Although I believe the “AKJV Bible” to be most accurate English version of the bible,
looking back into the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts is essential for clarification of doctrine.
One part of Scripture cannot discount another, meaning you can not pit one Scripture against another.In Genesis 9:11 God uses the words “destroy the earth”, yet the Earth was not destroyed, only the people.
Knowing the wording God used in the past, how he ONLY meant the people, why would you refuse to consider this?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Mike and Mark,
Also remember Jesus said it would be like the days of Noah,
where only the people were destroyed, NOT PLANET EARTH!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMark, thanks for the kind words. Can you tell me where this scripture is in the Bible: “the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up”? I agree with you that it seems pretty cut and dry.
Pierre, I don't see it as two different creations, but that EVERYTHING is part of THE creation of God.
Ed, the reference to Noah was that it would come as a surprise. This subject is now stuck forever in the back of my head, like many other ones I've discussed on HN. So as I'm reading my Bible day by day, I will keep an eye open for any more insight into this matter. For now, I am satisfied with my understanding, as I haven't seen anything CONCRETE to dissuade me from it as of yet. But my mind is always open to be taught from scriptural words I might have overlooked before. So if you think of more proofs, please keep posting them. I will do the same.
peace,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 09 2011,10:40) In Genesis 9:11 God uses the words “destroy the earth”, yet the Earth was not destroyed, only the people.
Knowing the wording God used in the past, how he ONLY meant the people, why would you refuse to consider this?
In Genesis 18, the same word is used of Sodom and Gomorrah, which we know were literally destroyed.It is a two edged sword, I guess. Right now, I feel that the most direct statements refer to a total destruction of this earth, and a totally new earth being created.
I may be wrong – time will tell. But that's how I'm understanding it at this time.
peace,
mikeMike
Quote Pierre, I don't see it as two different creations, but that EVERYTHING is part of THE creation of God. what i try to say is that verse 1 of Gen1 ,his the first part of God creation and is not included in the six days of creation what is the transformation of the earth into a habitation for men to live with all the goody's
Pierre
Ed.
I am not refusing to consider anything. A matter of fact, I agree with you. What you stated is in line with what I think. Back then, the earth was destroyed for the most part by water. In that case, God warned Noah, a rightious man, to prepare for it. He did, and was saved by 1-an Ark, and 2-the water. Same for me now. I have also been warned, and I am saved by 1-the New covenant and 2-the water of my baptism, being that I had faith in Christ and was Baptized. Now this time, God is coming in Fire. The earth will be burnt up, and everything on it will perish. A baptism by fire. It will die and then rise to New life. It will still be here, but not livable for a while. Like you say, not gone, but totally changed, santified by fire, changed by fire, purified by the fire, so that when we dwell on it again, after God “re-creates” it, or “re-news” it, sin will be no more. I think in a way we kinda agree on this.(and we will walk on the ashes of those who rebelled against God).
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2011,10:45) Mark, thanks for the kind words. Can you tell me where this scripture is in the Bible: “the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up”? I agree with you that it seems pretty cut and dry. Pierre, I don't see it as two different creations, but that EVERYTHING is part of THE creation of God.
Ed, the reference to Noah was that it would come as a surprise. This subject is now stuck forever in the back of my head, like many other ones I've discussed on HN. So as I'm reading my Bible day by day, I will keep an eye open for any more insight into this matter. For now, I am satisfied with my understanding, as I haven't seen anything CONCRETE to dissuade me from it as of yet. But my mind is always open to be taught from scriptural words I might have overlooked before. So if you think of more proofs, please keep posting them. I will do the same.
peace,
mike
Hey Mike,It was in response to Ed's post where he quoted 2 Peter 3:10.
PeaceQuote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,22:08) Ed. I am not refusing to consider anything. A matter of fact, I agree with you. What you stated is in line with what I think. Back then, the earth was destroyed for the most part by water. In that case, God warned Noah, a rightious man, to prepare for it. He did, and was saved by 1-an Ark, and 2-the water. Same for me now. I have also been warned, and I am saved by 1-the New covenant and 2-the water of my baptism, being that I had faith in Christ and was Baptized. Now this time, God is coming in Fire. The earth will be burnt up, and everything on it will perish. A baptism by fire. It will die and then rise to New life. It will still be here, but not livable for a while. Like you say, not gone, but totally changed, santified by fire, changed by fire, purified by the fire, so that when we dwell on it again, after God “re-creates” it, or “re-news” it, sin will be no more. I think in a way we kinda agree on this.(and we will walk on the ashes of those who rebelled against God).
Hi Mark,Now you are getting it except, it is going to be
carnal thinking that gets burned-up, not people physically.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2011,02:31) Mark why did Jesus did not join one of the churches in his time they were about six or seven at that time ,can truth sleep with lies ?can truth sit on the same chair with lies ?NO
can any one change those organizations ?? no ,people yes,all others have to be destroyed,
it is all about TRUTH OF GOD so no lies as soon you have lies you are out of the truth ,right ??
Pierre
By the way Pierre, no, at Jesus' time there was one church, the temple and Jewish observance. All Jews were bound to the Law as stated in the Torah. To follow any other faith was forbidden. You might have been thinking of the seven churches in Revalation. These were chirstian churches that were founded after Jesus rose, and John recieved the remarks from Jesus on the Island of Patmos. The temple and Mosaic law was the only religion to Jesus. It is now as it was then,9 All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest. 10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, [2] lying down, loving to slumber. 11 Yea, they are greedy [3] dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
The sins of the leaders of the churches and the false self-rightiousness have led Israel into sin, now as it was then. I say, like trying to assemble a bike without reading the instructions, then realizing you can't do it without instruction, “when all else fails, read the instructions (The Bible)” Peace
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 10 2011,22:44) Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,22:08) Ed. I am not refusing to consider anything. A matter of fact, I agree with you. What you stated is in line with what I think. Back then, the earth was destroyed for the most part by water. In that case, God warned Noah, a rightious man, to prepare for it. He did, and was saved by 1-an Ark, and 2-the water. Same for me now. I have also been warned, and I am saved by 1-the New covenant and 2-the water of my baptism, being that I had faith in Christ and was Baptized. Now this time, God is coming in Fire. The earth will be burnt up, and everything on it will perish. A baptism by fire. It will die and then rise to New life. It will still be here, but not livable for a while. Like you say, not gone, but totally changed, santified by fire, changed by fire, purified by the fire, so that when we dwell on it again, after God “re-creates” it, or “re-news” it, sin will be no more. I think in a way we kinda agree on this.(and we will walk on the ashes of those who rebelled against God).
Hi Mark,Now you are getting it except, it is going to be
carnal thinking that gets burned-up, not people physically.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I think “the heavans and the earth will pass away” and“the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up”
And John's warning that God is coming in FIRE, I think it will be burned up. We will agree to disagree, and wait and see……. I say, “come on God, FIRE IT UP (please) but your will, not mine, be done,!” Either way it is good, and the earth is “re-newed”
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 11 2011,06:20) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2011,02:31) Mark why did Jesus did not join one of the churches in his time they were about six or seven at that time ,can truth sleep with lies ?can truth sit on the same chair with lies ?NO
can any one change those organizations ?? no ,people yes,all others have to be destroyed,
it is all about TRUTH OF GOD so no lies as soon you have lies you are out of the truth ,right ??
Pierre
By the way Pierre, no, at Jesus' time there was one church, the temple and Jewish observance. All Jews were bound to the Law as stated in the Torah. To follow any other faith was forbidden. You might have been thinking of the seven churches in Revalation. These were chirstian churches that were founded after Jesus rose, and John recieved the remarks from Jesus on the Island of Patmos. The temple and Mosaic law was the only religion to Jesus. It is now as it was then,9 All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest. 10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, [2] lying down, loving to slumber. 11 Yea, they are greedy [3] dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
The sins of the leaders of the churches and the false self-rightiousness have led Israel into sin, now as it was then. I say, like trying to assemble a bike without reading the instructions, then realizing you can't do it without instruction, “when all else fails, read the instructions (The Bible)” Peace
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,00:39) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 05 2011,11:07) Hi all. Im not sure either. But heres some verses to think about: Genisis 9:11 –
“And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth“.
Compare with:
2nd Peter 2:5-
“They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water, through which the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men”.
Hey Shimmer,Just reflecting on the scripture you posted here. In the first, God said he would never destroy the earth by a flood, which he will not, he promised. In the second, it states that now the earth is stored up for a Judgement by fire. That to me is in line with all the scriptures about the “day of the Lord”. John the baptist also stated that the Lord is coming in Fire, and all the chaff will be burned. The last judgement, separate from the first which was a flood. It also says somewhere that we will be “saved by a curse”. To me, the world has went it's own way, and not followed the path to Peace outlined in Jesus' teaching, and we are suffering for all of our sins. But those who believe will be saved from this by the Day of the Lord because through it, we will be with God while all the defilement, and cancer and pollution and all other imperfections are melted away. I believe on the day God bears his holy arm we will not believe how much we underestimated the true Power of God, and will not be disappointed. This is a personal belief of mine-that we will also be “born again” into the next perfect world with immortal perfect bodies to worship God Forever. I got a 10mm mass on one of my kidneys so I hope it's soon. (and we will walk on the ashes of those who rebelled against God). Peace and Love to you-Mark
Hey Mark. How you doing.And this is to all too,
I often get truths from Eastern Orthodox. They trace their church back to Apostle Peter, and have very different views than others.This is what they have to say:
The End of the Physical World.
As a result of mankind's fall into sin, all creation unwillingly submitted to “the slavery of decay, and groans and suffers till now” (Rom. 8:22). The time will come in which mankind and the entire material world will be purified and renewed. This will occur on the last day, following the Universal Judgment, and it will happen by means of fire. As the world that existed before the deluge was purified from sin by means of the flood, likewise “the present heaven and earth,” St. Peter teaches, “are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men … [On that] day … the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up … Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells” (2 Pet. 3:7-13).
The fact that the present temporary world will be transformed was predicted many centuries before Christ by the Psalmist who said: “Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, all of them will grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will have no end” (Ps. 102:25-27). In other words, the end of the world will not be its destruction but its total renewal.
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/end/resurrection.shtml
Hi Shimmer,
Understanding the Earth is going to be ReNewed is a big start!
Understanding it is not going to be burned-up either is the next step.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgIt's cool y'all. Either way it's good. We'll soon see which one though. “They will perish” and including the heavens to me means destructed. “worn out”. The next world will be perfect and un-defiled.
Quote (mikeangel @ Nov. 10 2011,05:18) Hey Mike, It was in response to Ed's post where he quoted 2 Peter 3:10.
Peace
This is NETBible's version of it:2 Peter 3:10 NET ©
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; when it comes, the heavens will disappear with a horrific noise, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze, and the earth and every deed done on it will be laid bare.That makes it seem even more cut and dry to me.
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