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Hi KAT,
There is no conflict in scripture which reveals our God and the ignorance of men. Most of this revelation was through the Son of God, Jesus Christ who knew Him. We must submit to the teacher and learn from him and to all the teachings of God' Spirit.Put aside the obstructive catholic dogmas that adulterate the good food of truth unto poison.
Quote (katjo @ Oct. 24 2009,07:05) you cant say in the beginning it was God and his son. Colossians tells us all things were created by Him and for Him (17 He is before all things and by Him all things consist). (speaking of Jesus) Gen. 1;1 In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth! 2 more scriptures contradicting each other, if you try to seperate them. Which one do you believe?
Jesus exsisted before the world and men were created by God the Father with the help of Jesus. It says :Let us make men in OUR image. There is no contradition. Jesus or Yeshua was there with Jehovah God.
IreneIm not literally meaning jesus was not there, I was trying to show how they are one! Read John 8:58 and 10;30 When he was conceived than he became a human being in addition to being God.
Hi KAT,
By one do you mean the Father IS the Son?Jesus does not seem to agree with your catholic ideas.
No contradiction? Than why doesnt it say all things were made by us and for us? Jesus always had been God. BUT at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14 word was made flesh). Jesus was one Person, fully God and fully man.
Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.
When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God. Remember what (John 1:1 and 14 says.)So he could pay the price for our sins himself. So at that time until he accompished what he came to do, the father was greater. (this part is from got questions.org)Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.PLEASE READ THIS- The answer to this question is found by first understanding the reason why John wrote his gospel. We find his purpose clearly stated in John 20:30-31. “Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” Once we understand that John’s purpose was to introduce the readers of his gospel to Jesus Christ, establishing Who Jesus is (God in the flesh) and what He did, all with the sole aim of leading them to embrace the saving work of Christ in faith, we will be better able to understand why John introduces Jesus as “The Word” in John 1:1.
By starting out his gospel stating, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” John is introducing Jesus with a word or a term that both his Jewish and Gentile readers would have been familiar with. The Greek word translated “Word” in this passage is Logos, and it was common in both Greek philosophy and Jewish thought of that day. For example, in the Old Testament the “word” of God is often personified as an instrument for the execution of God’s will (Psalm 33:6; 107:20; 119:89; 147:15-18). So, for his Jewish readers, by introducing Jesus as the “Word,” John is in a sense pointing them back to the Old Testament where the Logos or “Word” of God is associated with the personification of God’s revelation. And in Greek philosophy, the term Logos was used to describe the intermediate agency by which God created material things and communicated with them. In the Greek worldview, the Logos was thought of as a bridge between the transcendent God and the material universe. Therefore, for his Greek readers the use of the term Logos would have likely brought forth the idea of a mediating principle between God and the world.
So, essentially, what John is doing by introducing Jesus as the Logos is drawing upon a familiar word and concept that both Jews and Gentiles of his day would have been familiar with and using that as the starting point from which He introduces them to Jesus Christ. But John goes beyond the familiar concept of Logos that his Jewish and Gentile readers would have had and presents Jesus Christ not as a mere mediating principle like the Greeks perceived, but as a personal being, fully divine, yet fully human. Also, Christ was not simply a personification of God’s revelation as the Jews thought, but was indeed God’s perfect revelation of Himself in the flesh, so much so that John would record Jesus’ own words to Philip: “Jesus said unto Him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, “Show us the Father”?'” (John 14:9). By using the term Logos or “Word” in John 1:1, John is amplifying and applying a concept that was familiar with his audience and using that to introduce his readers to the true Logos of God in Jesus Christ, the Living Word of God, fully God and yet fully man, who came to reveal God to man and redeem all who believe in Him from their sin
ASK JESUS NICK! HE SAID THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE DIDNT HE? Or do you look over that too?
Quote (katjo @ Oct. 24 2009,09:53) No contradiction? Than why doesnt it say all things were made by us and for us? Jesus always had been God. BUT at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14 word was made flesh). Jesus was one Person, fully God and fully man.
Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.
When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God. Remember what (John 1:1 and 14 says.)So he could pay the price for our sins himself. So at that time until he accompished what he came to do, the father was greater. (this part is from got questions.org)Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
Hi KAT,
What happened to your trinity god when part of him became a man and died?Our God is one and immortal and cannot die…even in part.
Seek the God of Jesus and Israel.
Hi Katjo and Nick,
Both of you two are bickering needlessly; let’s look at Jesus life from the stand point of genetics.
Science suggests that blood in the fetus comes from the father’s genetics; that would mean he had God blood running through those veins.
To put this in scientific terms (according to facts written in the Bible), that would make Jesus ½ HOLYSPIRIT (JESUS' BIOLIGICAL FATHER [“HE”, “Him” pick your own pronoun]),
¼ from the tribe JUDAH (Mary’s Father’s tribe) and ¼ from the tribe of LEVI (Mary’s Mother’s tribe).Why can’t you both (according to Rodney King) just get along; you are both exactly ½ RIGHT!
Lining things up correctly,
Ed J
http://holycitybiblecode.comHi KAT,
The Father and I[2] are one.
You too can be one with Jesus and his God in God's Spirit.
You may not have learned this following catholic dogmas but that is the hope of all men,-eternal life in the Living God's Spirit.He died for your sins Nick, and he already knew He was going to go threw it. He plained it. Right? And he also said Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it back up. Not just any man could do that. We have a spirit that lives in our body, just as Jesus has a spirit in His body, which is God that became flesh to come to be our Savior. So they are one. Just as your spirit and your body is one person. If scripture tell us no one has seen God(spirit) and Jesus is not him than why does Matthew 5;8 say Blessed are the pure in heart; FOR THEY SHALL SEE GOD!! how are we going to see Him, if its not Jesus? Your being so blind!
Hi KAT,
God was in him and spoke through him His words.
You really should worship God.Who was his God?[Jn20.17]?
Should his God not be your God too.
That is if you are following him and not men.Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 23 2009,11:09) Quote (georg @ Oct. 22 2009,22:00) And I go by Scriptures and not what a man is telling me. You think??? The Holy Spirit is not a person and did not become flesh. It was Jesus that became flesh. When you make commons like that expect to a rebuttal. Truth is truth and not an interpretation of that truth. Jesus was not fully God when He walked this earth. He emptied Himself, before He became a Human. The Holy Spirit is God the Fathers Spirit and we all receive His Spirit at Baptism.
The trinity doctrine is not of God. And in John 17:5 He told His Father …. read it yourself. I just can't understand you at all…..Oh I usually don't talk that way!!!What is that called?
Are you wearing a Hallo??
No my Friend think again. And study on the trinity. And the preexisting of Jesus, He did not always exsist. And the Holy Spirit is not a person. Also I am not Georg, I am Irene. And I have been around a lot more then you have. So don't give me that cockiness. You should try to have respect. My first post to you is not arrogant, like you think. You seem to think only you know it all. Come again. I am an 71 year old and I don't need your cookiness. All have fallen short of the glory of God.
Irene
Hi Irene,Your post name is georg. I’m glad you at least took the time to read this last post of mine. I never used the word arrogant,
what I said was your questions were pre-fabbed and accuseational; which they are.You have written quite a bit here and the common pattern still exists, you want me to address everything you say
while at the same time you totally disregard the points that I have made. If you really want a serious talk on ANY point you want to make,
I suggest you go back to page 43 and be current on everything I have on said on this thread up until this point.For you to just jump in by reading ONLY the last post that I have written. Then expect me to drop every point that I have made “relevant to the topic on this thread”, might look to some readers like hypocritical.
You know that the biggest problem Jesus had with the religious leaders of his day was hypocrisy!
I will some it up for you in just one verse…
N.W.T. (JW’s version): Ezekiel 28:2: “…FOR THE REASON THAT YOUR HEART HAS BECOME HAUGHTY, and you keep saying [‘I am a god’]. In the seat of god (your name here) I have seated myself…
Only “The Truth” will do,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Did you not say that Jesus always existed? I merly responded to that and said that He had a beginning. Rev.3:14 ….”This things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” My Heart is with the God of the Bible and not of men, like the trinity is. There is no trinity and those that teach the dioctrine of men and not of God, Scriptures say they worship in vain.
Math. 15:9Irene
Irene did you read my post on page 47?
Amplified bible3:14 And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty {and} faithful and true Witness, the Origin {and} Beginning {and} Author of God's creation:
Was Jesus Created by God (Revelation 3:14)?
The correct meaning of the phrase “the Beginning of the creation of God” is the Beginner or Author of God's creation. “Beginning” is a rendering of the Greek word archee, which refers to an originating instrument or active cause of origin (see Colossians 1:15-17). In his The New Testament in the Language of Today, William F. Beck translates this as “The Origin of God's creation.” As the Creator or Originator of all things, Jesus is the Head and Governor of all creatures; He is the King of creation (see Psalm 148). For further discussion of this meaning, please see the commentary on this verse by Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown and the one by Adam Clarke.
Proverbs 8:22-31 is sometimes cited as evidence that Jesus was created. However, this passage is clearly referring to wisdom personified (see verse 1), not to God! Notice that God possessed wisdom in the beginning and used it in creating the worlds. Revelation 3:14
“And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning ['arche'] of the creation of God…”
The “Beginning of the creation of God” — so that means He's created, right? To the contrary. The Greek work 'arche' means, “arche, a beginning, origin, first cause…” (Liddell & Scott). Thus the phrase found in 3:14 means that He was the “first cause”, the “origin”, of creation, not its first production. Here is how the New English Bible renders it: “To the angel of the church at Laodicea write: 'These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the prime source of all God's creation…'”, perfectly apt words for the Logos to communicate.
So is the English 'beginning' a poor translation? No, it's an excellent, comprehensive translation, having the same range of meanings as 'arche': “beginning, The first cause; origin; the first state; commencement…” (Webster's International). The Jehovah's Witness misunderstanding of this verse could have been avoided, not only by checking a Greek lexicon, but by getting up and grabbing the English dictionary off the shelf!The Bible tells us plainly that Jesus (who many believe was Melchizedek—Genesis 14:18-20) had no beginning of days nor end of life (Hebrews 7:1-3). He was not created, but was the Creator of all things that were made (Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 12;21
t8 said:
Quote Jesus is the bridegroom we are the bride. Should my wife worship me?
Should she honour me? I think yes, just as I should honour her.
Wrong! Israel's husband was her God. So the Church's Husband is her God. Do you love and honor your earthly father more than your spouse? So you don't love and honor your heavenly Father more than your Husband.t8:
Quote I worship the Father in spirit and truth because Jesus our bridegroom told us to. I honour and love Jesus and his words. So I will worship the Father in spirit and truth. I also honour Jesus as the son of God just as his disciples did.
The Son is to be honored EVEN AS the Father is honored. And those who do not honor the Son the same do not honor the Father.t8:
Quote But some say we should worship him as God himself
The Father Himself happens to be among those who say we should worship the Son as God Himself (Hebrews 1:1-10).Those who say that we should worship the Son have the Father as their witness.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,05:33) Hi TT,
Where did the Father in His teachings tell men they must now worship His Son?
I gave the Scripture in my post above.Why does Christ sanctify His wife to present her TO HIMSELF a holy wife (Eph. 5)?
Quote 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
Shouldn't Christ be sanctifying her to present her to God? The Church's Husband is her God as Israel's Husband was her God. This is why Christ sanctifies her to present her TO HIMSELF a holy wife.thinker
Quote (katjo @ Oct. 25 2009,01:34) Amplified bible3:14 And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty {and} faithful and true Witness, the Origin {and} Beginning {and} Author of God's creation:
Was Jesus Created by God (Revelation 3:14)?
The correct meaning of the phrase “the Beginning of the creation of God” is the Beginner or Author of God's creation. “Beginning” is a rendering of the Greek word archee, which refers to an originating instrument or active cause of origin (see Colossians 1:15-17). In his The New Testament in the Language of Today, William F. Beck translates this as “The Origin of God's creation.” As the Creator or Originator of all things, Jesus is the Head and Governor of all creatures; He is the King of creation (see Psalm 148). For further discussion of this meaning, please see the commentary on this verse by Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown and the one by Adam Clarke.
Proverbs 8:22-31 is sometimes cited as evidence that Jesus was created. However, this passage is clearly referring to wisdom personified (see verse 1), not to God! Notice that God possessed wisdom in the beginning and used it in creating the worlds. Revelation 3:14
“And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning ['arche'] of the creation of God…”
The “Beginning of the creation of God” — so that means He's created, right? To the contrary. The Greek work 'arche' means, “arche, a beginning, origin, first cause…” (Liddell & Scott). Thus the phrase found in 3:14 means that He was the “first cause”, the “origin”, of creation, not its first production. Here is how the New English Bible renders it: “To the angel of the church at Laodicea write: 'These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the prime source of all God's creation…'”, perfectly apt words for the Logos to communicate.
So is the English 'beginning' a poor translation? No, it's an excellent, comprehensive translation, having the same range of meanings as 'arche': “beginning, The first cause; origin; the first state; commencement…” (Webster's International). The Jehovah's Witness misunderstanding of this verse could have been avoided, not only by checking a Greek lexicon, but by getting up and grabbing the English dictionary off the shelf!The Bible tells us plainly that Jesus (who many believe was Melchizedek—Genesis 14:18-20) had no beginning of days nor end of life (Hebrews 7:1-3). He was not created, but was the Creator of all things that were made (Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 12;21
You are saying a lot here, but to me you are saying not much.
You are interpreting Rev. 3:14 to your liking and not what it says. It goes along with Col. 1:15-17 and John 1:1 and verse 2 And in verse 14 He became flesh and was called Jesus.
I always find it amazing when it fits the trinity then it is the way it is written. Otherwise it is interpreted into some thing else.
So according to you creation means the Author of God's creation?
And God did not have any wisdom until it was created in Proverbs 8:22-30 Does that even make sense!!! So ridiculous.
Believe what you want to, I am finish with someone who takes a mans word and not Gods. The Bible was written with the letters of the Apostles who are eye Witnesses. And most of the Bible are sacred to me and God inspired. Yes, there are some verses added, but as a whole it is God's Word.
So many errors in your article, no a thousand no's.
Irene
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