What About John 1:1 in the NWT?

Participant

Hi WJ,
I don't agree.

Hey Tim2, are you keeping track of all the various theories surrounding John 1:1? WJ, Nick and I all have differing opinions on this passage. Three people who seek God daily and desire truth…….interesting, isn't it?

May 25, 2007 at 1:05 am#53718

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 24 2007,06:06)

Quote (942767 @ May 21 2007,04:30)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2007,07:18)

Quote (942767 @ May 20 2007,03:22)

John 1
1:1
In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).

The question here is what was the idea? And it is explained in the following two verses.

Hi 94,
Strong's is not the bible.
Does any heavenly being have a body except the man from heaven?
Is an 'embodied idea' still within the being or with that being?

Hi Nick:

I have given my understanding on this subject, and I have closed this with “I hope that this helps”.

If it doesn't help you perhaps someone else will be helped by this.

Obviously, you don't agree with my understanding on this, and so, if you understand it differently, give us your understanding. I didn't say that I was right although I believe that I am otherwise I wouldn't be teaching this way, but if you can show me by the scriptures that what I am teaching is not correct, I will be happy to accept my correction.

I know that Stong's is not in the bible, but many a time the definition of a word helps us to grasp the meaning of what is being said such as the name Abraham meaning “father of a multitude” for example.

Anyway, I have given you my understanding maybe it will help someone.

God Bless

A thought or a plan cannot reason to do the will of God!

Heb

10:
5 *Wherefore when he cometh into the world*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, *but a body hast thou prepared me*:
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, *I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God*.

9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

Compare with…

Jn 6:38
For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

6:51
*I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

6:58
This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

1 Jn 1:1,2
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the *Word of life*;
(For the *life was manifested* (not a thought or a plan), and we have seen , and bear witness, and shew unto you that *eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.

Jesus the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father was not just some thought “in God”, for a thought or a plan cannot be “With God”!

Neither can a thought or plan be God!

Hi WJ:

You say:

A thought or a plan cannot reason to do the will of God!

True, but God began implementing his plan from the beginning creating all that is in the world with him in mind, and then,

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, * (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Here he can reason to do the will of God, and the gospel of Luke gives us a glimpse of this saying,

Luke 2:43
And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
2:44
But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and * * acquaintance.
2:45
And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
2:46
And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
2:47
And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
2:48
And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
2:49
And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I MUST BE ABOUT MY FATHER'S BUSINESS?

Hebrews 10:
5 *WHEREFORE WHEN HE COMETH INTO THE WORLD(he said the following when he came into the world, and obviously that was not when he was an infant as what Luke shows us above was when Jesus was about 12 years of age)*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, *but a body hast thou prepared me(the ME here has to be the Word of God)*:
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, *I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God*.

9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

Then you ask me to compare the following scriptures:

Jn 6:38
For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

6:58
This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

All of the above makes reference to the Word of God that came from the Father to humanity through Jesus. Jesus applied the Word of God to his life and became that “life-giving spirit. He is the bread of life.

You quote the following:

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*[/

John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; THAT THEY MAY BEHOLD MY GLORY, WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (This verse explains what Jesus meant in John 17:5. The “Glory” that Jesus had with the Father before the world was was a part of God's plan and was given to hi
m at this time)

You quote:

1 Jn 1:1,2
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the *Word of life*;
(For the *life was manifested* (not a thought or a plan), and we have seen , and bear witness, and shew unto you that *eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

My response: (For the life was manifested) This is the same as I have already explained in the God's plan for eternal life was made manifest through the Lord Jesus.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.

Jesus the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father was not just some thought “in God”, for a thought or a plan cannot be “With God”! ( I don't understand your reasoning here. Why can't a plan for eternal life be with God?)

Neither can a thought or plan be God!(Neither do I understand your reasoning here. The plan was to make man in his image and Jesus is the express image of his person.)

I have given you my understanding of John 1:1f and I have to believe that this is correct.

God Bless

May 25, 2007 at 1:35 am#53719

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2007,13:05)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 24 2007,06:06)

Quote (942767 @ May 21 2007,04:30)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2007,07:18)

Quote (942767 @ May 20 2007,03:22)

The question here is what was the idea? And it is explained in the following two verses.

Hi 94,
Strong's is not the bible.
Does any heavenly being have a body except the man from heaven?
Is an 'embodied idea' still within the being or with that being?

Hi Nick:

I have given my understanding on this subject, and I have closed this with “I hope that this helps”.

If it doesn't help you perhaps someone else will be helped by this.

Anyway, I have given you my understanding maybe it will help someone.

God Bless

A thought or a plan cannot reason to do the will of God!

Heb

9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

Compare with…

Jn 6:38
For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

6:58
This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.

Jesus the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father was not just some thought “in God”, for a thought or a plan cannot be “With God”!

Neither can a thought or plan be God!

Hi WJ:

You say:

A thought or a plan cannot reason to do the will of God!

True, but God began implementing his plan from the beginning creating all that is in the world with him in mind, and then,

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, * (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Here he can reason to do the will of God, and the gospel of Luke gives us a glimpse of this saying,

9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

Then you ask me to compare the following scriptures:

Jn 6:38
For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

6:58
This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

You quote the following:

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*[/

John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; THAT THEY MAY BEHOLD MY GLORY, WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME: for th
ou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (This verse explains what Jesus meant in John 17:5. The “Glory” that Jesus had with the Father before the world was was a part of God's plan and was given to him at this time)

You quote:

My response: (For the life was manifested) This is the same as I have already explained in the God's plan for eternal life was made manifest through the Lord Jesus.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.

Neither can a thought or plan be God!(Neither do I understand your reasoning here. The plan was to make man in his image and Jesus is the express image of his person.)

I have given you my understanding of John 1:1f and I have to believe that this is correct.

God Bless

You say…

Quote

The problem you have with these scriptures is that Jesus did not say the Word came down from heaven, he said “I” came down from heaven.

Jn 6:38
For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

6:58
This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

Also…

It is clear that the scriptures proclaim that Yeshua made the descision to come into the world before his body was prepared.

9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

In my opinion you are grossely misinterpreting these scriptures in order to support your anti prexistant view of Yeshua before he took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.

Jn 6:38
For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

Jesus said plainly “I” came down from heaven, to do the will of the Father who sent him!

IMO this is unambiguouos!

May 25, 2007 at 1:59 am#53720

Participant

Hi WJ:

You say:

You say…Quote

The problem you have with these scriptures is that Jesus did not say the Word came down from heaven, he said “I” came down from heaven.

John 6:31
Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
6:32
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
6:33
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

What in your opinion is “the bread of God”?

May 25, 2007 at 7:22 am#53721

david

Participant

The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed, by James L. Tomanek. (1958):
“and the Word was a God.”

The Emphatic Diaglott (1864; as printed in 1942), Benjamin Wilson’s Interlinear reading:
“and a god was the Word.”

The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text (1808), published in London:
“the word was a god.”

Wikipedia, has under “Jason Beduhn”:
He subsequently wrote Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament (ISBN 0-7618-2556-8), which generated controversy when he found the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (published by Jehovah's Witnesses) and the New American Bible (published by the American Catholic Church) to be more accurate than other respected translations linked to Protestant constituencies.

May 25, 2007 at 3:53 pm#53722

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2007,13:59)

Hi WJ:

You say:

You say…Quote

The problem you have with these scriptures is that Jesus did not say the Word came down from heaven, he said “I” came down from heaven.

What in your opinion is “the bread of God”?

The bread of God is a person!

6:33
For the bread of God *is he* which “cometh down” from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Again, Jesus never gives any inclination anywhere in the scriptures that he was just a “thought or a plan” of God.

He was with the Father in the begining.

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

kai nun docason me su, pater, para seautw th doch h eixon (5707) pro tou ton kosmon einai (5750) para soi.

eixon (to have, to hold) pro (before) tou ton (the) kosmon (world) einai (was)

And now, O Father, glorify (5657) thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had (5707) with thee before the world was (5750) .

A thought or plan cannot hold or have the Glory of God before the world was. Not to mention you are saying the thought and plan is God!

This is why John wrote the first chapter of John ascribing over 40 personal pronouns to Jesus the “Word”.

Then John confirms who this “Word” that was with God and was God is…

I believe John ascribed the word “Logos” to Jesus because of his vision of the Apocalypse.

Rev 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called *The Word (Logos) of God*.

Revelations was written around 70 AD whereas The Gospel of John was written around 80s or 90s. AD.

94, please help me to understand how you interpret these scriptures different.

Jn 6:38
For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

6:58
This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

Not to mention Paul says…

Col 1:17
And *he is before all things*, and by him all things consist.

This is not a thought or a plan! Its a “He”!

May 25, 2007 at 5:11 pm#53723

Participant

This is not a thought or a plan! Its a “He”!
************************************

Surely God knew his Son would be a “he.” Interesting note here: Men determine the sex of the child during conception (they carry the gene for girl/boy).

I've answered a lot of these scriptures given in the conception thread and others. I won't bother going through them again. Suffice it to say that these scriptures given by WJ can have other implications. How you interpret them depends on which priori you come to the scriptures with.

May 25, 2007 at 5:47 pm#53724

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 26 2007,05:11)

This is not a thought or a plan! Its a “He”!
************************************

Surely God knew his Son would be a “he.” Interesting note here: Men determine the sex of the child during conception (they carry the gene for girl/boy).

Not3

The problem you have is there is nothing in these scriptures that indicate he “”would be”, it is very plain that he “was and is”!

Col 1:17 KJV
*And he is before all things, and by him all things consist*.

NLT
*He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together. *

Heb 10:
5 *Wherefore when he cometh into the world*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, *but a body hast thou prepared me*:
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, *I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God*.

9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

Compare with…

Jn 6:38
For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

6:58
This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.

You claim to accept the scriptures as they are without reading into them, yet you try to force your anti-prexistent view on these scriptures.

Maybe you could break them down and give me your understanding of them.

Blessings!

May 25, 2007 at 6:54 pm#53725

Participant

Maybe you could break them down and give me your understanding of them.

Because I do not believe Jesus and the Apostles meant what you and 94 and AP and martian and Unisage believe about Yeshua as a thought or plan, and none of you have presented any credible evidence to this fact.
*****************************
OK, WJ, fair enough. I'll do my best at explaining what I think the scriptures say about Jesus being more of a plan of God rather than the pre-existent Son. I've already done this on a number of threads, it will take me some time to gather my scriptures again. I guess I should write them all down and keep them in catagories for such a time as this (good idea, Mandy!) But I do believe the scriptures *lend* themselves to a number of theories. Sometimes that is upsetting to me, and other times I believe that it was written this way for a purpose? I'll respond to your post over the weekend or maybe even tonight if the family doesn't have something planned (I'm always the last to know!)

May 25, 2007 at 9:38 pm#53726

Participant

Hi WJ:

You say in response to my question:

The bread of God is a person!

6:33
For the bread of God *is he* which “cometh down” from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

6:51
*I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The Jews were having a little difficulty understanding what Jesus meant by the statement “the bread that I will give is my flesh”, also.

6:52
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat ?
6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:55
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

6:60
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
6:61
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Then Jesus explains to the Apostles what he meant by the statement about eating his flesh:

6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life.

And so the bread of God is the Word of God that came to humanity through Him. But his body also came down from heaven it that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost. I believe that I heard you say in another thread that “spirit is the real person”. It is what Jesus did in the body that gives us the opportunity for eternal life. Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

God Bless

May 25, 2007 at 10:45 pm#53727

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 26 2007,09:38)

Hi WJ:

You say in response to my question:

The bread of God is a person!

6:33
For the bread of God *is he* which “cometh down” from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

The Jews were having a little difficulty understanding what Jesus meant by the statement “the bread that I will give is my flesh”, also.

Then Jesus explains to the Apostles what he meant by the statement about eating his flesh:

6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life.

God Bless

You say…

Quote

6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life.

And so the bread of God is the Word of God that came to humanity through Him.

You are close, however you are adding to what Jesus said.

Jesus said…

The reason Jesus “words” are Spirit and life is because he is the **Word**, and out of him proceeds the words of Eternal life as Peter said!

He is the Eternal Life that was with the Father. Jn 1:1,2.

Jesus didnt mean to literally eat of his flesh and his Blood.

It was his Word (body,flesh) and his Spirit (blood,water).

This is why he said…

Jn 7:37
In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, *If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink*.

And I might reiterate here that no mere man or anointed Prophet could give men to drink of the Spirit.

Again Jesus 'is” the Bread of Life.

Many men spoke the word of God, so did that mean they were also “The Bread of God”?

Again, he didnt say “I bring you the bread of God, by speaking the words of God to you”.

*I am the bread that came down from heaven!*

Rev 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called *The Word of God*.

Jesus is not the result of a spoken word from God.

Jesus is the Word!

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God, and the Word was God*.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made *by him*; and *without him* was not any thing made that was made.

94, I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I see nothing in John ch 6 that even hints that Jesus was saying that he is the “Thought or plan” of God.

There is two realitys in the universe, created and uncreated, God and creation.

Since by Jesus *all things were made* and *without him was not anything made that was made*, then that puts Jesus in the uncreated God catagory!

May 25, 2007 at 11:25 pm#53728

Participant

94, I agree with much of what you are saying. I will try to add my .02 this weekend.

WJ, it is clear that what you understand to mean, “come down out of heaven” and what 94 and I believe it to mean are two different things.

Can I ask a quick question: why are we posting in this thread? It says, “…in defense of NWT” – isn't there another “John 1:1” thread that doesn't have to do with the JW's? Just curious if we could move over to a different, more appropriate thread. Maybe one of you brothers could start one? Something like “John 1:1” Who and What is the Word?

May 25, 2007 at 11:30 pm#53729

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 26 2007,11:25)

94, I agree with much of what you are saying. I will try to add my .02 this weekend.

WJ, it is clear that what you understand to mean, “come down out of heaven” and what 94 and I believe it to mean are two different things.

Not3

Good point!

I would prefer to get off of this thread. No need to give the JW cult anymore exposure!

I am sure there is another John 1:1 thread!

NH Help!

May 25, 2007 at 11:32 pm#53730

Participant

I think Nick is MIA……..haven't seen him here in the last 24 hours, which is strange…….maybe he's on vacation?

On that note – have a great weekend guys. We're going camping – nothing like a last minute camping trip (along with everyone else and their dog).

May 25, 2007 at 11:59 pm#53731

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2007,10:45)

Quote (942767 @ May 26 2007,09:38)

Hi WJ:

You say in response to my question:

The bread of God is a person!

6:33
For the bread of God *is he* which “cometh down” from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

The Jews were having a little difficulty understanding what Jesus meant by the statement “the bread that I will give is my flesh”, also.

Then Jesus explains to the Apostles what he meant by the statement about eating his flesh:

6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life.

God Bless

You say…

Quote

6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life.

And so the bread of God is the Word of God that came to humanity through Him.

You are close, however you are adding to what Jesus said.

Jesus said…

The reason Jesus “words” are Spirit and life is because he is the **Word**, and out of him proceeds the words of Eternal life as Peter said!

He is the Eternal Life that was with the Father. Jn 1:1,2.

Jesus didnt mean to literally eat of his flesh and his Blood.

It was his Word (body,flesh) and his Spirit (blood,water).

This is why he said…

Jn 7:37
In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, *If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink*.

And I might reiterate here that no mere man or anointed Prophet could give men to drink of the Spirit.

Again Jesus 'is” the Bread of Life.

Many men spoke the word of God, so did that mean they were also “The Bread of God”?

Again, he didnt say “I bring you the bread of God, by speaking the words of God to you”.

*I am the bread that came down from heaven!*

Rev 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called *The Word of God*.

Jesus is not the result of a spoken word from God.

Jesus is the Word!

94, I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I see nothing in John ch 6 that even hints that Jesus was saying that he is the “Thought or plan” of God.

There is two realitys in the universe, created and uncreated, God and creation.

Since by Jesus *all things were made* and *without him was not anything made that was made*, then that puts Jesus in the uncreated God catagory!

No WJ:

Sorry, you accuse me of adding to Jesus said, but I believe that it is you that is adding to what he said. Jesus came from heaven in two ways: he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and so the prophetic Word of God became a reality, when he was born, and so, the scripture says, John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, * (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Secondly, the Word of God that he taught and that he obeyed came from God, and so from heaven. John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go ? thou hast the words of eternal life.

15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made * a living soul; THE LAST ADAM WAS MADE A QUICKENING SPIRIT.

If Jesus was made a life giving spirit as he learned obedience by the suffering that he endured having obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, how could he pre-exist his advent on earth. He was born into the world an infant just like all of us, and his personality was developed as he applied the Word of God to his life in this World. God made man in his own image and Jesus manifested God's character through the life that he lived while here on earth. He was born into the world and became the person that he is in this world.

God Bless

May 26, 2007 at 5:28 am#53732

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 26 2007,11:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2007,10:45)

Quote (942767 @ May 26 2007,09:38)

Hi WJ:

You say in response to my question:

The bread of God is a person!

6:33
For the bread of God *is he* which “cometh down” from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

The Jews were having a little difficulty understanding what Jesus meant by the statement “the bread that I will give is my flesh”, also.

Then Jesus explains to the Apostles what he meant by the statement about eating his flesh:

6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life.

God Bless

You say…

Quote

6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life.

And so the bread of God is the Word of God that came to humanity through Him.

You are close, however you are adding to what Jesus said.

Jesus said…

The reason Jesus “words” are Spirit and life is because he is the **Word**, and out of him proceeds the words of Eternal life as Peter said!

He is the Eternal Life that was with the Father. Jn 1:1,2.

Jesus didnt mean to literally eat of his flesh and his Blood.

It was his Word (body,flesh) and his Spirit (blood,water).

This is why he said…

Jn 7:37
In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, *If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink*.

And I might reiterate here that no mere man or anointed Prophet could give men to drink of the Spirit.

Again Jesus 'is” the Bread of Life.

Many men spoke the word of God, so did that mean they were also “The Bread of God”?

Again, he didnt say “I bring you the bread of God, by speaking the words of God to you”.

*I am the bread that came down from heaven!*

Rev 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called *The Word of God*.

Jesus is not the result of a spoken word from God.

Jesus is the Word!

94, I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I see nothing in John ch 6 that even hints that Jesus was saying that he is the “Thought or plan” of God.

There is two realitys in the universe, created and uncreated, God and creation.

Since by Jesus *all things were made* and *without him was not anything made that was made*, then that puts Jesus in the uncreated God catagory!

No WJ:

John 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go ? thou hast the words of eternal life.

15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made * a living soul; THE LAST ADAM WAS MADE A QUICKENING SPIRIT.

God Bless

I will address your other points. But I would like for you to give me your understanding of the following scriptures.

John 6:
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Do you think they were offended at Jesus saying he was the fullfilment of the word of God or the “Thought and plan of God?”

No they were offended because he said *he was the bread of life that came down from heaven*

And that they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood, which means eat his words and drink his Spirit.

Jesus is the Word and the Spirit&#
33; Jn 1:1, Rev 19:13, Jn 7:37, 2 Cor 3:17.

62 *What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before*?

This scripture is in context where Jesus said *he (not a thought or plan) came down from heaven*.

Can Jesus go back to being a thought or a plan?

Jesus is apparantly a liar. How could he go back to where he was?

If a thought and plan of God has been fulfilled in John 1:14. how does he reverse this prophetic event?

You deny every possible rule of interpretation and hermeneutics if you interpret this scripture as meaning anything else than what Jesus plainly says.

Jn 6:50
*This is the bread which cometh down from heaven*, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Jn 6:51
I am the *living bread* which came down from heaven:

A thought and a plan is not living, and a thought and a plan is not an “I Am”, and a thought and a plan does not come down from heaven, and surely a thought and a plan does not go up to heaven where it came from!

Jn 6:62
*What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before*?

Please explain!

May 26, 2007 at 4:26 pm#53733

Participant

Hi WJ:

First, what offended the Jews is that Jesus was talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

John 6:52
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat ?

And the following scripture says that some of his disciples were also did not understand what he meant by this according to the following scripture:

John 6:60
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

In fact some of the disciples quit following him because they did not understand about eating his flesh and drinking his blood according to the following scriptue:

John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back *, and walked no more with him.

But Jesus explains to the those disciples who are continuing to follow him what he meant in the following scripture:

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And so, when Jesus states: Jn 6:62
*What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before*?

He explains this also by John 6:61 and he is talking about eating the Words that he is teaching. The Spirit of the Son is eternal, God knew what he would teach his Son when he came into the world. We know his body did not exist before he was born of the Virgin Mary, but talks also about drinking his blood, and of course this the remedy for sin, and so I don't see a problem with him saying “what if I ascend where I was before”. He is talking about the spirit. It is the life that a person lives in the body that defines who that person is, and so Jesus is the living bread, that is the word of God applied to his life by which he lives and by which we also live if we believe and obey his commandments.

And so, the Logos (concept or idea) of conceiving a Son from a virgin was with God in the beginning and the Word or the Spirit that would be formed within him when he came into the world was with God in the beginning. This the life-giving spirit that Jesus would become.

Saying that Jesus existed with God in any other way does not make any sense at all.

God Bless

May 26, 2007 at 7:25 pm#53734

david

Participant

What about John 1:1–In defence of the NWT.

I've noticed that the last 10 pages or so don't seem to be about this subject. I guess they are about John 1:1. I'm sure John 1:1 is big enough to have it's own thread. It's just that now when someone wants to see about this actual topic: John 1:1–In defence of the NWT, myself included, they have to wade through this other stuff, about the Word being a “plan” or whatever. I'm certain this topic has been discussed at great length in another thread. Maybe it should have it's own thread.

May 26, 2007 at 8:40 pm#53735