- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Luke 20:13
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
*******************A verse that shows the Word, as the son, was loved BEFORE his conception……. This passage is not even close, brother. I think you know what I'm after brother, and I'm seriously wondering if you can produce such scripture?
Hi not3,
Certainly you can find a suitable meaning.
But that is not the way to find the simple truth.
The fact of being “with God” is important as it has two other witnesses.Jn 1
“2He was with God in the beginning. “
1Jn 1
” 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) “Quote (david @ May 17 2007,19:30) Quote And then you say that the angels are the same as YHWH in that they are both spirits. This I would have to disagree with you on. I just can't believe that the Spirit, YHWH, is in essence or substance the same type of spirit that the angels possess. Hi Tim2.
I'm not saying the angels are the same as YHWH. I'm saying God “is a spirit.” And I'm saying angels are spirits creatures. One is created, one isn't, but both have spirit bodies. Maybe they don't have the same spirit body, but they are spirits. Hence, share a common thing, a common nature. I'm not even really saying that they're the “same type of spirit” as you state. We're just not told things like this in scripture. All we're told is that Jehovah is “a spirit.” And the angels are spirits. We are flesh. We therefore do not share that same divine nature that they do. Some will be given it, but those of flesh do not have it.I am not the same as a flee. Yet, when compared to the heavens, to spirit creatures, the flee and I share something–we're physical beings. We share that commonality. It doesn't make us equal or anything like that. i'm not saying that.
Quote I would agree that they are both immaterial, but I would end the comparison there and say that YHWH's Spirit is entirely different from the angels' spirits.
Maybe they are. But would that mean I'm wrong. I don't see how it would.Quote My point from this is to argue for the uniqueness of YHWH and His nature, such that if Theos is qualitative in John 1:1, it still means Jesus is God, because only YHWH possesses that quality. I too argue for the uniqueness of Jehovah. I argue it even more than you do. He is completely unique, without comparison to anyone. He is above all, almighty, king of eternity, with no equal.
BUT THIS DOESN'T MEAN he is completely different from every other being in every way possible, does it? There are some similarities. We were made in the image of God, right? Other beings can share similarities of a sort.
Take the fact that I can't see Jehovah. I can see you. I can see this calculator. I can seet his pencil. I can't see angels. I can see this pen. i can see myself. I can't see Jesus. I can see…Did you notice that there are two groups–the invisible group–spirits.
and the visible group–everything else.Everything that I can see and touch shares one common nature–they're physcial substances made out of atoms.
Everything else in that string of things also has a common nature–a divine godlike nature–they're spirits. I can't see them. They live in the spirit realm.david
David,Want to talk about this in the dualism forum?
Tim
Hi not3,
Are you speaking of another false doctrine-the eternal son?
No sons are not eternal. But he was from the beginning, from everlasting.Micah 5
2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.Quote (Not3in1 @ May 21 2007,15:20) Luke 20:13
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
*******************A verse that shows the Word, as the son, was loved BEFORE his conception……. This passage is not even close, brother. I think you know what I'm after brother, and I'm seriously wondering if you can produce such scripture?
Hi not3,
Surely you would not limit God to the physical world and demand that all must be conceived exactly as men are? The sons of God were not the result of any sexual union. Christ is the monogenes son.Nick wrote:
….and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father
*************I was assuming by quoting the above, you were trying to say that Jesus was the “eternal life” that was “with” the Father. Did I misunderstand you? I'm sorry. What did you mean, then?
The sons of God were not the result of any sexual union.
******************
You mean the angels? Oh, of course they were not the result of sexual union, but then they are not created to show us that logic either. Jesus WAS conceived and then BORN to show us something. Was it not that he came into the world the usual way (that is, the way his brothers are born into the world?)Surely you would not limit God to the physical world and demand that all must be conceived exactly as men are?
**************
But God told us that Jesus was made like me in every way. Why would he go to the trouble of saying that? Why would he go to the trouble of finding a virgin?Hi not3,
Christ was made like you in every way.
By exactly the same means?
If Mary was not a virgin she would have not been morally fit to carry the son and paternity issues would arise?Hi not3,
You quote
“Nick wrote:
….and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father”
see 1Jn 1.2, jn 1.4.
He is the Word of Life, that eternal life of the Spirit, having been given to him, became for us too the source of eternal life.He is the Word of Life, that eternal life of the Spirit, having been given to him, became for us too the source of eternal life.
*************
What verse is this? I looked at 1 John 1:2 and John 1:4 and it didn't seem right, unless you are using an amplified version or something? Maybe I looked wrong? Thanks, Nick.By exactly the same means?
*****************************Well, my Mama was a good girl, but since I'm the last of 4 siblings it's safe to assume she wasn't a virgin
But of course the point is that God designed Jesus' conception to follow the natural order of things. It was necessary to fulfill his promised to Abraham and ultimately to us.
Hi NOt3,
Not quoted but paraphrased.
Eternal life of the Spirit is IN the Son. He who has the son has life.[1jn.Rom 8.2]He is the Word of Life, that eternal life of the Spirit, having been given to him, became for us too the source of eternal life.
****************OK, gotcha – paraphrased. Um, yes I believe that God gave Jesus his holy spirit without measure while he lived on earth. I believe that Jesus is the author of our lives (that is; our future hope of resurrected life – eternal life).
But how he existed “with” God in the beginning……….it does not say he (the Word) was an eternal life with God. Eternal life is IN the Son, yes. But the Word was not the eternal life “with” God. God is root of all life; our parent, our source (including that of Jesus).
Hi not3,
The mission of the one sent into the world has little to do with his own life, which he lost at Calvary, but the life of God that was in him and by which he was, and we will be raised.Hi Nick,
I agree with most of what you say.However, if we don't ponder and wonder what kind of life Jesus had with God before he was sent to earth – John 1:1 becomes anyone's guess. Each one of us has to make his/her own decision about Christ. It just helps to talk out all the possibilities here. Thanks for chat with me on this subject and the conception thread. While I feel like we got right to the door and didn't walk through, it has still helped me hunger more after God and truth. It's all good.
Hi not3,
Phil 2 gives us some pretty good ideas about this being who was with God and was his own unique nature with a will of his own.Sometimes I wonder what we would do without Philippians 2……
It's hard for me to base a belief on one section of scripture. But I'll take a look at it again. Thanks.Quote (942767 @ May 21 2007,04:30) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2007,07:18) Quote (942767 @ May 20 2007,03:22) John 1
1:1
In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).The question here is what was the idea? And it is explained in the following two verses.
Hi 94,
Strong's is not the bible.
Does any heavenly being have a body except the man from heaven?
Is an 'embodied idea' still within the being or with that being?
Hi Nick:I have given my understanding on this subject, and I have closed this with “I hope that this helps”.
If it doesn't help you perhaps someone else will be helped by this.
Obviously, you don't agree with my understanding on this, and so, if you understand it differently, give us your understanding. I didn't say that I was right although I believe that I am otherwise I wouldn't be teaching this way, but if you can show me by the scriptures that what I am teaching is not correct, I will be happy to accept my correction.
I know that Stong's is not in the bible, but many a time the definition of a word helps us to grasp the meaning of what is being said such as the name Abraham meaning “father of a multitude” for example.
Anyway, I have given you my understanding maybe it will help someone.
God Bless
94A thought or a plan cannot reason to do the will of God!
Heb
10:
5 *Wherefore when he cometh into the world*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, *but a body hast thou prepared me*:
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, *I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God*.9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.
Compare with…
Jn 6:38
For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.6:51
*I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.6:58
This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.1 Jn 1:1,2
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the *Word of life*;
(For the *life was manifested* (not a thought or a plan), and we have seen , and bear witness, and shew unto you that *eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.Jesus the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father was not just some thought “in God”, for a thought or a plan cannot be “With God”!
Neither can a thought or plan be God!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
