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Quote (Not3in1 @ May 19 2007,17:46) And most of all a “plan” cannot have “life (zoe) in Him”.
***********************“Life in Him” – isn't seed alive in you?
No. As I understand it seed are not a “life”.Seed = Source
1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.Yes. But the life was “in Him”. That's the point I am driving at, one of them. The seed example does not account for this.
Isaiah, forgive me, it's late here and I'm getting drowsy – can you say it a different way? I'm not getting your point.
Life was “in” Christ because God is the source of that life. God gave life to Jesus. He provided the seed (which contained life).
I better head to bed – the screen is looking fuzzy to me – it's about 12:20 in the morning here, and we have an early morning Little League game to go to
I'll check back tomorrow. Good to chat with you Isaiah! Goodnight.
Sorry, have been coming and going (on the computer) and have been slow to respond. Have a good sleep. I'm sure we'll pick up on this at another time.
John 1
1:1
In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).The question here is what was the idea? And it is explained in the following two verses.
1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.(The idea was to make all that was made as described in Genesis record of the the creation with him(Jesus) in mind.) Gen.1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life *, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.Col. 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Hebrews 1
1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had * by himself purged * our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;John 1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made * a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit(live-giving).I hope that this helps.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ May 20 2007,03:22) John 1
1:1
In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).The question here is what was the idea? And it is explained in the following two verses.
Hi 94,
Strong's is not the bible.
Does any heavenly being have a body except the man from heaven?
Is an 'embodied idea' still within the being or with that being?There are too many sources that seem to say that the logos can refer to an “idea” for it to be completely tossed aside. What if John 1:1 were to be read that way? What other passages of scripture would have to be seen in this light? What would change? What does everyone thing. For a moment, humor me and others who believe that the logos can be a plan or an idea. It would change any notions of pre-existence, for starter's. It would change aspects of the Trinity, if not tear it apart completely?
Hi not3,
I believe God is telling us through John that the Son had personal existence as a heavenly being before his birth.
This should come as no surprise as God was not alone in any of the heavenly records shown before earth was formed.
If God had other sons as shown in Jb 38 then why should we be surprised if the monogenes son was there too?
If all creation came through him including these other sons then surely he must have been there with God in the beginning.
Negotiations happened between God and this being and agreement reached for him to decide to come to earth.
A deal was struck and promises made and trusting obedient faith was involved for the Son to look beyind the suffering and rejection he was also promised.
Why is this strange to your ears as Christ told us all these things?Negotiations happened between God and this being and agreement reached for him to decide to come to earth.
A deal was struck and promises made and trusting obedient faith was involved for the Son to look beyind the suffering and rejection he was also promised.
**************************Nick, you form your theory on John 1:1 based on your above belief. My question to all who care to entertain the idea, is what would change if for a moment, we thought that John 1:1 really did point to a “plan” or “idea.” What would change?
With your pre-existence theory in mind, I have searched the scriptures. If you approach scripture with a preconceived theory, you will find your theory! My challenge is to adopt someone elses theory and approach scripture with the same diligence. What, if anything, would change for you?
Hi not3,
No I rely on what scripture said about Jesus:
He was with God in the beginning.
He came from heaven.
He was sent.
He was in the form of God.
He had seen God.
He obeyed.
He emptied himself.Ideas and plans do not do such things.
Well, I guess you're not up for my challenge. That is OK. My point is just that everyone believes they are “relying on scripture” and there are a lot of different ideas out there (yours, mine, and others). We all believe that the scriptures point to what we believe – otherwise we wouldn't be convinced that we have the truth.
He was with God in the beginning.
He came from heaven.
He was sent.
He was in the form of God.
He had seen God.
He obeyed.
He emptied himself.
************************I also believe these things about Jesus. And yet you and I have differing opinions about *what* the Son of God is. It's all in our personal evaluation of the truth that scripture brings. Who is right? Me or you? I'll flip you for it!
1. He was with God in the beginning: Jesus did not pre-exist his earthly existence, rather he is a true son and was with his Father in the form of a future son – he was “hidden” in God, in his quiver as a seed.
2. He came from heaven: Jesus “came from heaven” because God is in heaven. Jesus' source is God. God sent him (he sent his seed and future son into the world).
3. He was sent: see #2
4. He was in the form of God: Jesus is God's Son. While on earth, Jesus is God's exact representative for us.
5. He had seen God: Sometimes “see” or “seen” can also mean, “to know” (so I've been told). But yes, I believe Jesus was able to see his Father at work and received many lessons from him. Spirit to spirit. There is much that is not written in scripture about this divine relationship.
6. He obeyed: When Jesus realized who he was, he became the obedient servant. Because he was obedient, even unto death, God exhaulted him. Nowhere in scripture does it tell us that Jesus was obedient before his birth. There are no scriptures outlining the “deal” that God made with a spirit son.
7. He emptied himself: As God's Son, Jesus certainly had priviledges. He told his disciples that if he wanted to he could call down all the angels in heaven to help him – but he chose not to – he gave way to his birth rights while on earth.
Hi not3,
Phil 2
“5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6who, though he WAS in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2007,07:18) Quote (942767 @ May 20 2007,03:22) John 1
1:1
In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).The question here is what was the idea? And it is explained in the following two verses.
Hi 94,
Strong's is not the bible.
Does any heavenly being have a body except the man from heaven?
Is an 'embodied idea' still within the being or with that being?
Hi Nick:I have given my understanding on this subject, and I have closed this with “I hope that this helps”.
If it doesn't help you perhaps someone else will be helped by this.
Obviously, you don't agree with my understanding on this, and so, if you understand it differently, give us your understanding. I didn't say that I was right although I believe that I am otherwise I wouldn't be teaching this way, but if you can show me by the scriptures that what I am teaching is not correct, I will be happy to accept my correction.
I know that Stong's is not in the bible, but many a time the definition of a word helps us to grasp the meaning of what is being said such as the name Abraham meaning “father of a multitude” for example.
Anyway, I have given you my understanding maybe it will help someone.
God Bless
Hi 94,
If I have an idea, a thought or a plan then that is all it remains as.
However if I give expression to such an idea or plan or thought then it exists.
If you design a car and then have it built then that car becomes the embodiment of your design.
It exists with you.
The Word was with God.
The Word was loved by God.
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
God loved the world so much he sent His only begotten Son.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2007,06:19) Hi 94,
If I have an idea, a thought or a plan then that is all it remains as.
However if I give expression to such an idea or plan or thought then it exists.
If you design a car and then have it built then that car becomes the embodiment of your design.
It exists with you.
The Word was with God.
The Word was loved by God.
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
God loved the world so much he sent His only begotten Son.
Hi Nick:It stated with a plan or idea but the scripture states:
Joh 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, * (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.God Bless
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