What About John 1:1 in the NWT?

Participant

Quote

Look around! There are more on this sight that dont believe in your false religion and your cultish Bible the NWT, than there are those who are not trinitarians.

So that leaves you as the “Elite” right? You are always right, and your religion is the only religion thats right and your NWT is the only true translation.

And only the 144000, JWs that are born again, who believe Jesus is Michael the Arch-angel incarnate and who believe God has a god beside him, and that the Holy Spirit is nothing but a force or power of God, and their brain washed followers are right and the rest of the world is wrong.

Isnt that what this is all about David? You come here to promote watchtower not to sincerely discuss John 1:1.

Your cult is exposed for what it is. You need to repent and leave that cultish religion and follow the true Jesus not Michael the Arch Angel.

No fear tactics just truth!

SO, WJ, YOUR PROOF THAT YOUR TRANSLATION OF jOHN 1:1 is correct is

1. that the majority is right and I'm not in the majority.
2. I'm one of JW's so I can't be right on this.

WJ, please study fallacies and learn how to think correctly.

May 16, 2007 at 9:40 pm#53617

Participant

There is no “a” (indefinite article) in the Greek language.

Therefore, if you simply state that we added an “a” in John 1:1, you might as well also state that all Bible's have done this countless times!

There is no indefinite article (“a”) but there is a definite article (“the”) and it's missing from being before the “theos” (God) in question.

May 16, 2007 at 9:58 pm#53618

Participant

Quote

Many people are confused about the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

— quote from WJ

He also quotes this:

Quote

Therefore, since they deny that Jesus is divine, they have altered the Bible in John 1:1 so that Jesus is not divine in nature. The New World Translation has added the word “a” to the verse so it says, “…and the Word was a god.”

1. We do not deny “that Jesus is divine.” (I can quote a hundred places in the watchtower where Jesus is called “divine.” So, this is a lie.)
2. We did not add an “a” but rather the Greek langauge has no “a” (definite article) whereas it does have a definite one. ALL BIBLES HAVE “ADDED” this word many many many times, if that's what you consider adding a word.

So, who is the source of the confusion? The website that WJ quotes a page back is an anti-JW website. The entire website appears to be built on turning people away from JW's. I wonder if they are impartial?
WJ has said he is biased towards the NWT. I believe he is also biased towards JW's in general and this bias is clouding his judgement. Instead of sticking to John 1:1, he seems to like bringing up other topics, in order to confuse and sidetrack, I guess.

Quote

People have written to ask if they are Christians or do they worship a different God?

We worship whom the Jews worshiped and whom Jesus said to worship (his Father and God. We follow Christ in this.)

Quote

Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christians have some things in common.

Actually, we have very little in common with the people who call themselves Christians today. However,
“The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practiced by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era.
The Encyclopedia Canadiana (Under Jehovah’s Witnesses), Toronto : Grolier of Canada, c1957-80. Vol 6

We do have a whole lot in common with the early christians, who didn't speak of a trinity at all.

When you compare what the early Christians did and believed, you'll find it's quite different from your life WJ.

May 16, 2007 at 11:53 pm#53619

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote

When you compare what the early Christians did and believed, you'll find it's quite different from your life WJ.

Talk about attacking someone personally. Did that make you feel better David?

Just an honest question.

What do you know about my life?

What, I didnt go door to door with you this week to promote watchtower so I could put another glitch in my armour and to secure my salvation?

David this is the reason that your religion is a cult. Because it says that you are the “Elite”, the only saved, the only church, and you have the only true bible.

Tell me if this is not so David?

Can anyone out side of the JW camp be saved?

Since you are so confident about your “religion” why dont you tell us about your doctrine especially John 1:1 and 14, where Jesus is an angel in the flesh called michael.

Why all the secrecy? If it is the truth why not share it? Or is it that it is pearls that is only privy to the JWs.

David I was trying to have serious dialogue aboiut John 1:1 with you, but you resorted to your same ole practices, and patronizing.

Now I realize that to deal with John 1:1 and the NWT which is what this thread is about, then we need to discuss the source of the NWT and the motives behind their translation. Then maybe we will see why they didnt go with the proper translation of John 1:1.

How about it David. Lets look at the real reason for the rendering of John 1:1 by your organization?

What a ya say chief?

May 17, 2007 at 1:42 am#53620

Participant

Quote (hope2u @ May 17 2007,07:58)

Thank you WJ.
However, I lean toward simplistic explanations. Jesus was a carpenter as his earthly father, Joseph, was a carpenter. Jesus is deity as his one true father is deity. His father passed all power to him when he ascended into heaven and received his place on the throne next to his father. As the lamb of God he is the only one anywhere in heaven and earth who can break the seals on the scroll with seven seals. This is part of the message God gave to Jesus who sent it by the Angel of the Lord to John to write to the churches and record everything he was shown. I have faith that Jesus and God both know what they are doing and gratitude that I am part of it even though I am an ordinary woman of 68 with only a high school education, but I know that the fulness of the Spirit of God is always at work in me. My 28 year christian life has been in the study of Bible prophecy most of which I have published on my website. www.prophecybythebook.com

The very first verse that struck me when I started reading the Bible is…
Psalm 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest (not) they come near unto thee.

I let him mold me as he pleases in accordance with his word.

Hi h4u,
So if deity means god you offer us two. If you foster the trinity belief where is the other deity and how and in which order should they be worshiped?

Naah

God is ONE-The Father.

May 17, 2007 at 2:26 am#53621

Participant

Quote (hope2u @ May 17 2007,06:30)

WJ,
I can see how referring to Jesus as a god would change the entire picture of who Christ is and that is the whole purpose of Satan, isn't it? As hard as it is, there comes a time that each encounter with an unbeliever must come to an end if they choose not to believe. The greatest problem we have is unbelievers thinking they are believers and following the truth as they see it. We can only hope that some piece of truth will take root and grow.

Hi h4u,
You say
“We can only hope that some piece of truth will take root and grow. “

Christ is the truth.
He told us what truth is.

Jn 17
“17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.'

But men offer us things that are not in the bible as truth, such as the trinity theory.

We should totally reject such speculations shouldn't we.

May 17, 2007 at 2:27 am#53622

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 17 2007,13:42)

Quote (hope2u @ May 17 2007,07:58)

I let him mold me as he pleases in accordance with his word.

Hi h4u,
So if deity means god you offer us two. If you foster the trinity belief where is the other deity and how and in which order should they be worshiped?

Naah

God is ONE-The Father.

Nick,
If you've read any of my posts you would know that I do not foster the trinity position. No matter how I state Father and Son you always come back with some correction of my semantics. There is YHVH the Father and Jesus the Son of YHVH. (The name of God, YHVH, was first given to Moses by God in Exodus 6:2,3– And Elohim spoke to Moses and said to him, “I (am) YHVH;I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El Shadai, but by my name, YHVH, I was not known to them.”) . YHVH's spirit IS the Holy Spirit of the Bible. There is no third person. To say there is a third person called the Holy Spirit is to say that YHVH has two spirits of equal power. This is not supported in the Bible. What is it you are really asking, Nick?

May 17, 2007 at 2:41 am#53623

Participant

Hi h2u,
Thank you.
May your voice be clearly heard here.
Folk are so confused and disabled by the philosophies of men.

May 17, 2007 at 2:42 am#53624

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 17 2007,14:26)

Quote (hope2u @ May 17 2007,06:30)

Hi h4u,
You say
“We can only hope that some piece of truth will take root and grow. “

Christ is the truth.
He told us what truth is.

Jn 17
“17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.'

But men offer us things that are not in the bible as truth, such as the trinity theory.

We should totally reject such speculations shouldn't we.

Nick,
We are all in different places in our knowledge of God and Jesus. Isn't that right?
When I said “We can only hope that some piece of truth will take root and grow.” I meant exactly that. The entire Bible is God's truth. What strikes one person to seek more truth may not be what strikes another. Therefore, we can only hope and pray that some piece of truth will take root and grow.

We must listen to the other person and not be too engrossed in enundating them with so much truth that they may not be hearing or won't read because it is TMI (too much information). Build a relationship and learn what it is they are looking for. Then build a little at a time on that.

I am also sometimes guilty of TMI. It is a habit I am working on breaking.

May 17, 2007 at 2:51 am#53625

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 17 2007,14:41)

Hi h2u,
Thank you.
May your voice be clearly heard here.
Folk are so confused and disabled by the philosophies of men.

Nick,
Yes there are many philosophies of men. Sometimes I feel angry about that and sometimes my spirit mourns.

You are only standing guard for the truth. We should all be standing guard and protecting it with our lives. I am very glad I found this website. It provides a place to speak openly and freely of my first love where there are like minded souls to hear and unlike minded souls to learn, myself included.
Thank you and God bless you

May 17, 2007 at 3:13 am#53626

Participant

Hi h2u,
Satan has so successfully attacked the revelation of the very nature of God
and many many men have followed him blindly into the pit that will be his home
not realising the new god he offers them is not our God but another of foreign origins.

May 17, 2007 at 5:38 am#53627

Tim2

Participant

Quote (david @ May 16 2007,19:33)

Quote

But I think the critical issue then becomes, whether or not God's nature is entirely unique to Him, or if angels and believers share in it?

Hi Tim2

May 14th, this thread, Is 1:18 said: “My answer is yes. Only a divine being can have a divine nature.”
Jehovah is a “divine being” the “divine one” so according to Is 1:18, God has a divine nature.
We are told that those who would share with Christ will have a “divine nature.” (2 Pet 1:4 NIV, …etc)

So your question of “whether or not God's nature is entirely unique to Him” would depend on whether we're going with the Bible and Bible expressions or whether we're going to insert OUR UNDERSTANDING of the word nature to suit OUR PURPOSES.
I'm going to go with what the Bible says and leave it at that.
I do understand that Jehovah is different from everyone in the greatest of ways. But that doesn't change the fact that he has a certain nature, a divine nature, as does Christ and as will some humans.

Quote

But I would say, generally, that God really is completely other. I don't believe He is “made of the same stuff” as the angels

When I make stuff, I tend to make it out of material physical stuff.
When Jehovah who is “a spirit” made the angels, who is to say he didn't make them spirits, like himself.
This isn't to say they are equal or anything like that at all. It just means they share a common nature.
I and a rock (although different in great ways) do share one thing–we are physical things. In that sense, we do have some similar characteristics.

Jehovah and the angels…I don't see either of them right now. That's because they share common trait or characteristic I don't–they are spirits.
Hence, they both have a similar nature…in this respect, at least.
They both have divine nature. (The Bible doesn't say the angels have divine nature, but it does say that certain humans will)

Quote

but my point is, if God's nature is entirely unique to Him, then if the Logos has that nature, that means He is God.

And my point is this–you are ascribing your own ideas to the word “nature” and not really going with what the Bible says. Nowhere are we told that God's “nature” is entirely unique to Him.
Jehovah is a “divine one,” a “divine being.”
Is 1:18 rightly said that a divine being has a divine nature. Makes sense.
Certain humans will have a “divine nature.”

Therefore, your saying “if God's nature is entirely unique to Him” is unfounded…scripturally at least.

Hey David,

Well, I think we agree this is the critical issue -is God's nature entirely unique to Himself? You offer 2 Peter 1:4 and Acts 17:29 as evidence that one attribute of God, His Divine Nature, is shared with believers. It seems from our discussions that you believe this to consist mainly in the escape of believers from corruption by putting on a spiritual body after the resurrection, right? So if this is basically the divine nature that is shared, we would agree that it consists mainly of incorruptibility, right?

And then you say that the angels are the same as YHWH in that they are both spirits. This I would have to disagree with you on. I just can't believe that the Spirit, YHWH, is in essence or substance the same type of spirit that the angels possess. I would agree that they are both immaterial, but I would end the comparison there and say that YHWH's Spirit is entirely different from the angels' spirits.

My point from this is to argue for the uniqueness of YHWH and His nature, such that if Theos is qualitative in John 1:1, it still means Jesus is God, because only YHWH possesses that quality. I know I didn't say much new in this post, I'm just trying to understand our positions better so we can discuss them further.

Tim

May 17, 2007 at 7:16 am#53628

Participant

Quote

David this is the reason that your religion is a cult. Because it says that you are the “Elite”, the only saved, the only church, and you have the only true bible.

1. WJ, you don't know what the word “cult” means, or you don't understand JW's at all.
2. WJ, the idea that there are many acceptable ways to worship God, many roads all leading to the same place is just not Biblical. Think back to the early Christians.
3. WJ, what did the early Christians believe? Did they believe that those who believed other things than they did, false things were on the right track? According to the early Christians, and the Bible writers, do you think there are many acceptable versions of Christianity, all teaching different things, and holding to different standards of conduct, yet all on the right road?
4. We have never ever said we have the only true Bible.

Quote

Can anyone out side of the JW camp be saved?

Earlier, you quoted a site that is completely anit-JW that said something to that effect. Your quote from them had a couple errors if I remember, one being that we don't believe Jesus is divine (godlike).
Here's what I believe. Right now, there is really only one group proclaiming the good news of the kingdom in all the earth. (mat 24:14)
Only one. You can say the mormons are doing it too, but they're not doing it in all the earth and there's only one out of every 200 that are missionaries, if I remember correctly. So, as a group, JW's are the only one's that are doing this work. (If you say JW's aren't, then who is? Who is approaching people everywhere? Who has come to me?)

This being the case, that Jehovah has graciously given people eveywhere a chance to hear the greatest news and decide whether they like what they hear.

“he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction.” (2 thess 1:8,9)

What I am saying is this. If someone hears the good news and does not obey it, or follow it and act on what they hear…if they were given the choice and the chance to follow God and choose not to, if they were warned and disregarded this warning message….if God sends out a message and a person closes their ears, what can we expect?

But, there are many who have lived on this earth in periods of dark ages and some places where people just can't get to, that for whatever reason haven't been given this opportunity. God is just.

So, no, we don't believe as you falsely say.

But I do believe that what I know is true, AS YOU DO YOURSELF. Let me ask you: Who will be saved? Those who believe just as you do? Please answer.

Quote

David I was trying to have serious dialogue aboiut John 1:1 with you, but you resorted to your same ole practices, and patronizing.

Um, YA.. IF BY NAME CALLING YOU MEAN ME SAYING THIS EXTRAORDINARILY TRUTHFUL FACT:
“When you compare what the early Christians did and believed, you'll find it's quite different from your life WJ.
Then, I ask: What “name” did I call you?

You really haven't discussed John 1:1 with me at all. You've stated these things:

1. The majority is right, therefore your translation is wrong. (a fallacious argument.)

2. Nope, I think that's it. I thought there was more, but I was wrong.

3. Oh, right, in addition to number one, you also repeatedly said that JW's are just wrong, because they're wrong, so the NWT must be wrong, because it was translated by them, and they believe wrong things, so it has to be wrong. (Also, a fallacious argument.)

If it bothers you that I point out that how you reason is unreasonable, I can do nothing about that. I can direct you to several websites that have various lists of fallacies….

Quote

Since you are so confident about your “religion” why dont you tell us about your doctrine especially John 1:1 and 14, where Jesus is an angel in the flesh called michael.

You say you have tried to discuss John 1:1 with me, but really, the statement above is the sort of thing you've been doing. I've pointed out several times to many on this thread that I'd actually like to discuss John 1:1. If you can't do that, please raise your topic in another thread.

Quote

Why all the secrecy? If it is the truth why not share it? Or is it that it is pearls that is only privy to the JWs.

I have, for about 40 pages. Find it in another thread. Again, while some falsely claim that JW's are secretive, we are among the most public open organization on the planet. We actually invite everyone to our meetings, all of them, and we try to do this personally.

Quote

Ah, there's the bias we have come to know and love! Actually, I have I believe done the same, tried to point out how every single one of the translators that translated your John 1:1 scriptures just so happened to already be trinitarians. Hence, “the Word was God.” So, if you want to go on this journey, I at least can understand your motives. But the truth is, what it will come down to is you saying: “You translated it this way because of your beliefs” and I will say: “They translated it that way becaus e they are trinitarians.”
And that will go in circles for a few pages.
I really had hoped we'd avoid all of these sorts of devices.
I just wanted to discuss John 1:1, specifically the NWT.

May 17, 2007 at 7:30 am#53629

Participant

Quote

Hi Tim2.
I'm not saying the angels are the same as YHWH. I'm saying God “is a spirit.” And I'm saying angels are spirits creatures. One is created, one isn't, but both have spirit bodies. Maybe they don't have the same spirit body, but they are spirits. Hence, share a common thing, a common nature. I'm not even really saying that they're the “same type of spirit” as you state. We're just not told things like this in scripture. All we're told is that Jehovah is “a spirit.” And the angels are spirits. We are flesh. We therefore do not share that same divine nature that they do. Some will be given it, but those of flesh do not have it.

I am not the same as a flee. Yet, when compared to the heavens, to spirit creatures, the flee and I share something–we're physical beings. We share that commonality. It doesn't make us equal or anything like that. i'm not saying that.

Quote

I would agree that they are both immaterial, but I would end the comparison there and say that YHWH's Spirit is entirely different from the angels' spirits.

Maybe they are. But would that mean I'm wrong. I don't see how it would.

Quote

My point from this is to argue for the uniqueness of YHWH and His nature, such that if Theos is qualitative in John 1:1, it still means Jesus is God, because only YHWH possesses that quality.

I too argue for the uniqueness of Jehovah. I argue it even more than you do. He is completely unique, without comparison to anyone. He is above all, almighty, king of eternity, with no equal.
BUT THIS DOESN'T MEAN he is completely different from every other being in every way possible, does it? There are some similarities. We were made in the image of God, right? Other beings can share similarities of a sort.
Take the fact that I can't see Jehovah. I can see you. I can see this calculator. I can seet his pencil. I can't see angels. I can see this pen. i can see myself. I can't see Jesus. I can see…

Did you notice that there are two groups–the invisible group–spirits.
and the visible group–everything else.

Everything that I can see and touch shares one common nature–they're physcial substances made out of atoms.
Everything else in that string of things also has a common nature–a divine godlike nature–they're spirits. I can't see them. They live in the spirit realm.

david

May 17, 2007 at 7:56 am#53630

Participant

Philip Harner is one of those scholars you guys like to quote. I found this interesting.

“There is a great article by Philip Harner that explores only the grammatical issue (i.e. not the theological issues just mentioned), and compares all the different possible ways that the author could have worded John 1:1c, and determined the different likely nuances of each way of wording the passage. He showed that if the author wanted to say that the Word was “a god” (as a member of a class of gods), he would have phrased it as ho logos én theos. This would have been more clearly indefinite (as the noun follows the verb), and such a sentence is a closer parallel to Acts 28:6. If the author wanted to say that the Word and God (ho theos of v. 1b) are one and the same, he would have wrote ho logos én ho theos. If the author wanted to say that the Word was divine without specifying the extent (i.e. allowing for a lesser kind of divinity), he would have better phrased it as ho logos én theios. If the author wanted to say something stronger than that the Word was “a god” or theios without implying that the Word was interchangeable with the Father, then theos én ho logos would have been the best way to put it.”
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/133986/1.ashx

May 17, 2007 at 9:27 am#53631

Cult Buster

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2007,08:19)

Quote

Listen, there are hundreds of people on here who don't believe the trinity.
If you think they're wrong, I want you to show us why each of them shouldn't be trusted.

David

Look around! There are more on this sight that dont believe in your false religion and your cultish Bible the NWT, than there are those who are not trinitarians.

So that leaves you as the “Elite” right? You are always right, and your religion is the only religion thats right and your NWT is the only true translation.

Isnt that what this is all about David? You come here to promote watchtower not to sincerely discuss John 1:1.

Your cult is exposed for what it is. You need to repent and leave that cultish religion and follow the true Jesus not Michael the Arch Angel.

No fear tactics just truth!

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

May 17, 2007 at 10:32 am#53632

Participant

psst CB,
I wasn't going to mention it but there seems to be a log thingummy in your eye and perhaps that is why you don't see the truth that well. I dunno.

May 17, 2007 at 4:49 pm#53633

Participant

Quote (david @ May 17 2007,19:16)

Quote

David this is the reason that your religion is a cult. Because it says that you are the “Elite”, the only saved, the only church, and you have the only true bible.

Quote

Can anyone out side of the JW camp be saved?

This being the case, that Jehovah has graciously given people eveywhere a chance to hear the greatest news and decide whether they like what they hear.

But, there are many who have lived on this earth in periods of dark ages and some places where people just can't get to, that for whatever reason haven't been given this opportunity. God is just.

So, no, we don't believe as you falsely say.

But I do believe that what I know is true, AS YOU DO YOURSELF. Let me ask you: Who will be saved? Those who believe just as you do? Please answer.

Quote

David I was trying to have serious dialogue aboiut John 1:1 with you, but you resorted to your same ole practices, and patronizing.

You really haven't discussed John 1:1 with me at all. You've stated these things:

1. The majority is right, therefore your translation is wrong. (a fallacious argument.)

2. Nope, I think that's it. I thought there was more, but I was wrong.

If it bothers you that I point out that how you reason is unreasonable, I can do nothing about that. I can direct you to several websites that have various lists of fallacies….

Quote

Since you are so confident about your “religion” why dont you tell us about your doctrine especially John 1:1 and 14, where Jesus is an angel in the flesh called michael.

Quote

Why all the secrecy? If it is the truth why not share it? Or is it that it is pearls that is only privy to the JWs.

Quote

David,
I wasn't going to get into this with you because I know how set JW's are. However, I just read the list of 42 JW beliefs on their official site and was apalled. The JW list of beliefs are based on scriptures taken completely out of context. I call it cherry picking, looking for only the verses that fit the doctrine. JW is deceived beyond what I thought. You steal the birthrights of Israel by calling yourselves the 144,000 spiritual Israel. What about the thousands of JW's that aren't chosen as part of that elite group?

You say that Mosaic Law is no longer valid, yet God based the end-times of Daniel's prophecy
of seventy-sevens on the Law and Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. The Law will not be completely fulfilled until the total time of the seventy sevens is completed at the end of the millennium and the Great White Throne Judgment.

JW uses John 3:3 as the born-again experience and never mentions that it is by the Spirit of God in verse 5.
I counted 18 of the 42 beliefs that are blatently false and/or controlling. JW gives a completely wrong understanding of hell which, if correct, would void the need for a second resurrection for judgement at the White Throne Judgment. Satan has very effectively hidden the truth from all who believe the JW tenets.

No matter what stand anyone takes to reveal the truth to you you will defend JW with one of their lies. There is no win-win. The originator of JW is no better than Mohammad, the originator of Islam, who decided to write his own bible because he disagreed with the Torah and Christian teachings and Joseph Smith who cleverly convinced people that he found golden tablets and wrote the book of Mormon or David Koresh who deceived all those people in Waco, TX and caused their deaths. I could go on and on but I don't think it would do any good. False prophets are here to stay until Jesus returns. You are deceived and choose to stay that way. Your only purpose on this forum is to draw people away and get them involved in useless arguement.
If you want to learn the truth get a KJV, NKJV and use Strong's or Young's Concordance, a good Bible Encyclopedia, and BibleGateway. And above all sever your ties with JW completely. I have said all I will say on this issue.

May 17, 2007 at 7:02 pm#53634