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Quote David You say…
–WJ
Quote You follow the crowd WJ. I will miss you. –me
Quote Miss me! 
I never was in yoiur camp.–WJ
I know you were never in my camp, WJ.
(Psalm 91:7) “A thousand will fall at your very side And ten thousand at your right hand; To you it will not come near.
What I meant was simply that the majority (you) usually tend to be wrong and are often removed from the earth.
Quote But I think the critical issue then becomes, whether or not God's nature is entirely unique to Him, or if angels and believers share in it? Hi Tim2
May 14th, this thread, Is 1:18 said: “My answer is yes. Only a divine being can have a divine nature.”
Jehovah is a “divine being” the “divine one” so according to Is 1:18, God has a divine nature.
We are told that those who would share with Christ will have a “divine nature.” (2 Pet 1:4 NIV, …etc)So your question of “whether or not God's nature is entirely unique to Him” would depend on whether we're going with the Bible and Bible expressions or whether we're going to insert OUR UNDERSTANDING of the word nature to suit OUR PURPOSES.
I'm going to go with what the Bible says and leave it at that.
I do understand that Jehovah is different from everyone in the greatest of ways. But that doesn't change the fact that he has a certain nature, a divine nature, as does Christ and as will some humans.Quote But I would say, generally, that God really is completely other. I don't believe He is “made of the same stuff” as the angels When I make stuff, I tend to make it out of material physical stuff.
When Jehovah who is “a spirit” made the angels, who is to say he didn't make them spirits, like himself.
This isn't to say they are equal or anything like that at all. It just means they share a common nature.
I and a rock (although different in great ways) do share one thing–we are physical things. In that sense, we do have some similar characteristics.Jehovah and the angels…I don't see either of them right now. That's because they share common trait or characteristic I don't–they are spirits.
Hence, they both have a similar nature…in this respect, at least.
They both have divine nature. (The Bible doesn't say the angels have divine nature, but it does say that certain humans will)Quote but my point is, if God's nature is entirely unique to Him, then if the Logos has that nature, that means He is God. And my point is this–you are ascribing your own ideas to the word “nature” and not really going with what the Bible says. Nowhere are we told that God's “nature” is entirely unique to Him.
Jehovah is a “divine one,” a “divine being.”
Is 1:18 rightly said that a divine being has a divine nature. Makes sense.
Certain humans will have a “divine nature.”Therefore, your saying “if God's nature is entirely unique to Him” is unfounded…scripturally at least.
CB, you state incorrectly:
Quote John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.” Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.”
But then you show the actual words in Greek:
“and God was the word.”
(kai theos en ho logos)kai theos en ho logos
and god was the wordGreek doesn't have indefinite articles (“a” or “an”) so in all the places in your Bible after Matthew where you see an “a” it was inserted as a part of translation.
Greek DOES have a definite article (“the”) and it uses this word to signify “the God” for example.Notice that “the Logos” is “ho [the] Logos.”
Yet, theos has no “ho” or “the” in front of it.So, knowing that Greek doesn't have the indefinite article “a” and it does have the definite article “the” and given that no definite article is found in front of the “theos” (god) here, yet there is one in front of “God” (theos) in the first occurance:
Quote “and the word was with THE God…”
(kai ho logos en pros TON theon)it's impossible to say, as you have that “the God” is the literal translation. This is simply not correct.
Much more has to be considered.
The KJV is a completely non-credible translation. I'm putting it on my non-credible translation list because it translated a word differently than the other Bibles. (((I should mention that I'm showing how some people reason. I do not endorse the above statement))))
I would suggest anyone who has it on their credible translation list (WJ) and who thinks that if one different word from most other Bible's makes a translation non-credible, they should definitely remove this Bible from their list and knock their number of credible scholars down as well.Quote (david @ May 16 2007,19:33) May 14th, this thread, Is 1:18 said: “My answer is yes. Only a divine being can have a divine nature.”
Jehovah is a “divine being” the “divine one” so according to Is 1:18, God has a divine nature.
We are told that those who would share with Christ will have a “divine nature.” (2 Pet 1:4 NIV, …etc)So your question of “whether or not God's nature is entirely unique to Him” would depend on whether we're going with the Bible and Bible expressions or whether we're going to insert OUR UNDERSTANDING of the word nature to suit OUR PURPOSES.
I'm going to go with what the Bible says and leave it at that.
I do understand that Jehovah is different from everyone in the greatest of ways. But that doesn't change the fact that he has a certain nature, a divine nature, as does Christ and as will some humans.
I think you are reading too much into 2 Peter 1:4 David. Being a “partaker” in the divine nature does not, to my mind, intimate that the divine nature is to be permanently conferred on the believer, that it will become intrinsic to us. It seems to me that the very word he used (partakers – koinonos) argues against this notion. Someone does not become, or take on, the thing in which they “partake” in. When Paul warns the Corinthians against being “participants with demons” (koinonous ton diamonion), it's obvious that he does not imagine there is a tangible risk that that they would become demons, or like them. And certainly the semantic range of “koinonos” does encompass the idea of participating, or fellowshipping in, something. Being a “partaker” in the context of 2 Peter 1:4 may simply mean that believers would one day experience YHWH. Alternatively, it may very well be a present-tense reference to believers taking on the qualities and attributes of Christ, by virtue of us being born again into Him. I think this hypothesis is supported by what Peter wrote in the later part of the verse:“For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.”
The word “escaped” denotes something that has already taken place. Peter appears to be saying that the participation in the divine nature provides escape in this life from the “corruption in the world caused by evil desires.”. This notion is pressed by Peter even futher in the next verse – “Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge”. The context here is present tense, on this Earth, and all the verbs Peter used were present tense ones.
Here are some commentaries that might bear this point out more lucidly:-
“The thought is evidently not that of a metamorphosis into quasi-deity, for the results of this participation are expressed in positive human qualities. It is rather that to be truly human one needs an enabling which comes from God himself. The teaching is comparable with Paul’s teaching on the new creation and the teaching in John on being born again” (NIDNTT).
The NIV rendering 'and escape the corruption' might better be translated 'since you have escaped' in order to bring out the force of the aorist participle (apophygontes, 'have escaped'). Thus, in coming to know God through Christ, the believer escapes the corruption of sin; and Christ renews and restores the image of God in him” (Expositor's Bible Commentary).
“'partakers of the divine nature'—The divine nature is the nature that characterizes God, the nature that is expressed in holiness, virtue, righteousness, love, grace, glory, etc. (see 1:5-7). By being regenerated with the divine nature, believers can partake of these characteristics of the divine nature. 'having escaped the corruption that is in the world'—By being made partakers of the divine nature, we escape the corrupting elements in the world” (New Commentary on the Whole Bible, 2 Ed.).
“Because they are 'partakers' (KJV) of God’s nature, Christians can share in His moral victory over sin in this life and share in His glorious victory over death in eternal life. Because of the promise of the new birth (1 Peter 1:3), the promise of God’s protecting power (1 Peter 1:5), and the promise of God’s enabling power (2 Peter 1:3), believers can 'participate in the divine nature,' that is, become more like Christ (cf. Rom. 8:9; Gal. 2:20)” (Bible Knowledge Commentary).
There is, and will only ever will be, One divine being David – YHWH. I think Peter is aware of that and is not teaching polytheism in his letter. Although believers will inherit resurrection bodies, we will not be getting ontological upgrades to “Alpha and Omega” status. Hope I haven't burst you bubble.
Blessings
In John 1:1 it states “. . . kai theos en ho logos”. This is usually translated as “. . . and the Word was God.”
The original word order in Greek, however, is “. . . and God was the Word.”
If when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in Greek as it is the case here, the predicate nominative (in this case “theos”) it cannot grammatically have a definite article. If it did have a definite article, then its position in the sentence would make it the subject of the sentence.
Also however, when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in the Greek, then the grammatical and stylistic effect is to emphasize the meaning of the predicate nominative and to give it the added effect of being a very forceful adjective.
So the statement in John 1:1 means that the Word, which is Jesus, is God–not just “a god,” like the Jehovah's Witnesses highly biased NWT suggests.
John 1:1 literally translated reads: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”
Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” as the corrupted NWT states. That wouldn't make sense. Let's break it down into three statements.
“In beginning was the word…”
(en arche en ho logos)
A very simple statement that the Word was already there in the beginning.“and the word was with the God…”
(kai ho logos en pros ton theon)
This same Word was with God.“and God was the word.”
(kai theos en ho logos)
— Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This obviously identifies Jesus as The Word (Jehovah God)
The Gospel of John emphasizes the divinity of Christ from beginning to end. It starts with John 1:1 and climaxes in Thomas’ confession of faith when he says “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28).
In other words, John’s Gospel begins by declaring Jesus Christ to be God the Word in flesh and to be fully divine and concludes with.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Quote Listen, there are hundreds of people on here who don't believe the trinity.
If you think they're wrong, I want you to show us why each of them shouldn't be trusted.
DavidLook around! There are more on this sight that dont believe in your false religion and your cultish Bible the NWT, than there are those who are not trinitarians.
So that leaves you as the “Elite” right? You are always right, and your religion is the only religion thats right and your NWT is the only true translation.
And only the 144000, JWs that are born again, who believe Jesus is Michael the Arch-angel incarnate and who believe God has a god beside him, and that the Holy Spirit is nothing but a force or power of God, and their brain washed followers are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
Isnt that what this is all about David? You come here to promote watchtower not to sincerely discuss John 1:1.
Your cult is exposed for what it is. You need to repent and leave that cultish religion and follow the true Jesus not Michael the Arch Angel.
No fear tactics just truth!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2007,04:19) Quote Listen, there are hundreds of people on here who don't believe the trinity.
If you think they're wrong, I want you to show us why each of them shouldn't be trusted.
DavidLook around! There are more on this sight that dont believe in your false religion and your cultish Bible the NWT, than there are those who are not trinitarians.
So that leaves you as the “Elite” right? You are always right, and your religion is the only religion thats right and your NWT is the only true translation.
And only the 144000, JWs that are born again, who believe Jesus is Michael the Arch-angel incarnate and who believe God has a god beside him, and that the Holy Spirit is nothing but a force or power of God, and their brain washed followers are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
Isnt that what this is all about David? You come here to promote watchtower not to sincerely discuss John 1:1.
Your cult is exposed for what it is. You need to repent and leave that cultish religion and follow the true Jesus not Michael the Arch Angel.
No fear tactics just truth!
The 144,000 is about the twelve tribes of Israel, Jehovah's Witness.
Pre-tribber's have also robbed the remnant of their true purpose. The general consensus is that the Church will be raptured before the seven years of tribulation begin and the 144,000 remnant of Israel will be left to deal with the tribulation period. However, this remnant has a purpose that most have missed. Prophecy tells us that the remnant will be hidden for the forty-two months of the Antichrist's reign.The relationship between God and Israel is not finished. In fact, Israel will play a very important part in the completion of prophecy and the commandments of God. At the end of their forty-two months of safety from the Fourth Beast, a.k.a., Antichrist, the twelve tribes will be sealed in the Holy Spirit to meet their Messiah in the air along with the millions of Gentiles and Jews who were sealed before them. The parable of the Workers in the field (Matthew 20:1-17) is parallel to the sealing the of the 144,000. They will be sealed last just before the sound of the last trumpet but will receive the same as those who were sealed before them from the beginning.
Seal six on the scroll with seven seals is about the 144,000 of Israel and a view of the sealing of the 144,000 just before the seventh trumpet sounds. During the last seven years of Daniel's prophecy of seventy-sevens the 144,000 remnant of Israel will be hidden for forty-two months. This time frame coincides with the time of the Antichrist. Here is the reason for their forty-two months of protection: The 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel are the appointed representatives of the nation of Israel to be in their sections of land owned by their ancestors for Jubilee. All twelve tribes must be present in order to celebrate Jubilee. The celebration of Jubilee will restore what they lost, end the transgressions of Israel and Jerusalem, bring an end to sin, and establish everlasting righteousness. That is the stated purpose of Jubilee; to make all things new. It is, also, the basis of Daniel's prophecy of seventy-sevens. The last Jubilee is called the Great Day of God and it is the Great Day because it is the millennial reign of Jesus Christ on this earth.
Some, even now as they read these pages, will not believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross to save them from the coming wrath of God, much less believe that God would allow such destruction in the last seven years. They will not believe and repent so as to be sealed by the Spirit of God for salvation. Many of these same people believe that being “good” is enough. It is not enough! We must be sealed by the Holy Spirit, also known as being born-again, to heal and renew our hearts so as to be filled with love for the Father who gave his only son to save us from his wrath. He is a loving father who gives his children a choice. It's really very simple. The destruction is coming, it cannot be diverted. We have the choice of being destroyed on the day of Christ's return or to enjoy life everlasting in peace with God. For those who still doubt and think this is nothing more than a myth, please keep in mind that “truth really is stranger than fiction.”
Quote (hope2u @ May 17 2007,05:23) Sorry! I suffer slips of the finger from time to time. I meant to write –not Jehovah's Witness.
hope2uQuite alright. But the JWs believe they are the true church and are the only ones to be saved on the earth.
If you are not part of their religion then they believe…
“(Psalm 91:7) “A thousand will fall at your very side And ten thousand at your right hand; To you it will not come near.”
All of the Non JWs will fall at their side because they are not in their camp!
Here is a quote of what they believe…
Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the only ones who will come through Armageddon. *Anyone who is not a Witness will perish*. They say that at the time of Armageddon the governments of the world will come against the remnant of the 144,000 still alive on earth (spiritual Jerusalem).
http://yourbible.ca/index.php?fragid=8
Their bible is part of the few that mistranslate John 1:1.
They have their own religion and their own bible and if you dont agree with them you will perish!
Sad!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2007,05:48) Quote (hope2u @ May 17 2007,05:23) Sorry! I suffer slips of the finger from time to time. I meant to write –not Jehovah's Witness.
hope2uQuite alright. But the JWs believe they are the true church and are the only ones to be saved on the earth.
If you are not part of their religion then they believe…
“(Psalm 91:7) “A thousand will fall at your very side And ten thousand at your right hand; To you it will not come near.”
All of the Non JWs will fall at their side because they are not in their camp!
Here is a quote of what they believe…
Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the only ones who will come through Armageddon. *Anyone who is not a Witness will perish*. They say that at the time of Armageddon the governments of the world will come against the remnant of the 144,000 still alive on earth (spiritual Jerusalem).
http://yourbible.ca/index.php?fragid=8
Their bible is part of the few that mistranslate John 1:1.
They have their own religion and their own bible and if you dont agree with them you will perish!
Sad!
Thank you WJ for your reply. I like that. It is reverse of JW.Yes it is sad
Satan devised a plan to pull hearts away from God and after they die and realize the truth they cannot change their mind. They are lost forever.
I can't see how creating their own bible by changing some scriptures could negate all of the references in their bible that say it the right way. That would be impossible short of creating an entirely different bible like Joseph Smith did, the book of Morman, which by the way has been revised numerous times to fit the times.
Even the many other translations of the King James version have not changed the Word, maybe stated incorrectly or incompletely but not revised. Again, it is sad but not totally impossible. Everything is possible with YHVH. The seven year tribulation sifting will bring many to Christ. It is the ones who die before then that have no chance.Heres some other good explanations as to why the JWs translation of John 1:1 is false!
The Jehovah's Witnesses and John 1:1
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was a god.” The New World TranslationThis is one of the most common verses of contention between the Jehovah's Witnesses and Christians. Their false assumption is that Jesus is not God in flesh, but Michael the archangel who became a man. Therefore, since they deny that Jesus is divine, they have altered the Bible in John 1:1 so that Jesus is not divine in nature. The New World Translation has added the word “a” to the verse so it says, “…and the Word was a god.” The correct translation for this verse is “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” This is how it is rendered in the NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV, etc.
The New World translation is incorrect in its translation of this verse for several reasons. First of all, the Bible teaches a strict monotheism. To say that Jesus is “a god” is to suggest that there is another god besides YHWH, which is contrary to scripture (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8, etc.). Of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses will respond that Jesus is not the Almighty God, but a “lesser” kind of God. He is the “mighty God” as is referenced in Isaiah 9:6, “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us, and the government will rest on His shoulders, and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” Therefore, they say that Jesus is the mighty god, but not the Almighty God.
The immediate problem with this explanation is that YHWH is also called the Mighty God in Jeremiah 21:18 and Isaiah 10:20. In all three verses, including Isaiah 9:6, the Hebrew word for “mighty” (gibbor) is used.Isaiah 10:20-21, “Now it will come about in that day that the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.”
Jer. 32:18, “who showest lovingkindness to thousands, but repayest the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God. the LORD of hosts is His name.”
We can see that the Jehovah's Witness explanation is not valid. Both the Son and God are called the Mighty God.
Furthermore, how many actual gods are there in scripture? The obvious answer is that there is only one God in existence. Though there are others who have been falsely called gods (1 Cor. 8:5-6) or even said to be “as God” like Moses (Ex. 4:16; 7:1), there is only one real God (Gal. 4:8-9; Isaiah 44:6,8). If Jesus is “a god” that was “with God” in the beginning, then is Jesus a true god or a false god?
But, the Jehovah's Witnesses often claim that Jesus is a god in the sense that Moses was called a god. But, Moses was not called a god. Rather, he would be “as God.”“Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and it shall come about that he shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be as God to him, (Exodus 4:16).
“Then the Lord said to Moses, 'See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet,'” (Exodus 7:1).
Why was Moses going to “as God” to Pharaoh? Because Moses was given the authority and power to display powerful miracles that decimated much of Egypt. Was Moses really a god? Being “as God” in regards to power given to perform miracles over Egypt is not the same thing as being called “a god” that was in the beginning with God, (John 1:1).
John was a strict Jew, a monotheist. Does the Jehovah's Witness really think that John would be saying that there was another God besides Jehovah, even if it were Jesus? Being raised a good Jew, the apostle John would never believe that there was more than one God in existence. Yet, he compared the word with God, said the word was God, and that the word became flesh (John 1:1,14).
John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.” Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” That wouldn't make sense. Let me break it down into three statements.“In beginning was the word…”
(en arche en ho logos)
A very simple statement that the Word was in the beginning.
“and the word was with the God…”
(kai ho logos en pros ton theon)
This same Word was with God.
“and God was the word.” — Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”
(kai theos en ho logos)
This same Word was God.
Regarding statement 3 above, the correct English translation is “…and the Word was God,” not “and God was the word.” This is because if there is only one definite article (“ho”=”the”) in a clause where two nouns are in the nominative (“subject”) form (“theos” and “logos”), then the noun with the definite article (“ho”=”the”) is the subject. In this case “ho logos” means that “the word” is the subject of the clause. Therefore, “…the Word was God” is the correct translation, not “God was the Word.”1 But this does not negate the idea that John is speaking of only one God, not two, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that Jesus is “a god,” or the “mighty god” as was addressed above.
Is there suddenly a new god in the text of John 1:1? It is the same God that is being spoken of in part 2 as in part 3. How do the Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that the word had somehow become a god in this context, since there is only one God mentioned? Remember, the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus was Michael the Archangel. Therefore, is there any place in the Bible where an angel is called “a god,” besides Satan being called the god of this world in 2 Cor. 4:3-4?John 20:28 – “Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'”
In the Greek in John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, “ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou,” “The Lord of me, and the God of me.” If Jesus was not God, but “a” god, then shouldn't Jesus have corrected Thomas? Shouldn't Jesus have said, “No Thomas, I am not the God. I am a god.”? But Jesus did not. To do so would have been ludicrous. Nevertheless, the Jehovah's Witness will say that Thomas was so stunned by Jesus' appearance, that he swore. This is ridiculous because it means that Thomas, a devout man of God, swore in front of Jesus and used the Lord's name in vain in violation of Exodus 20:7. This is hardly the case since we find no New Testament equivalent of a disciple of Christ using God's name in vain.
In conclusion, John 1:1 is best translated without the “a” inserted into the text. “The Word was God” is the best translation. This way, we do not run into the danger of polytheism, with Jesus being “a god.” We do not have Thomas the disciples swearing and using God's name in vain. And, we do not have the problem of Jesus being a “mighty god” and yet not the God — even though God Himself is called the Mighty God (Jeremiah 21:18; Isaiah 10:20).
____
1. Chapman, B. (1994). Greek New Testament Insert. (2nd ed., revised.). Quakertown, PA: Stylus Publishing. Also, Louw, J. P. (1989; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic edition of the 2nd ed.) (Page 592). New York: United Bible societies.http://www.carm.org/jw/john1_1.htm
WJ,
I can see how referring to Jesus as a god would change the entire picture of who Christ is and that is the whole purpose of Satan, isn't it? As hard as it is, there comes a time that each encounter with an unbeliever must come to an end if they choose not to believe. The greatest problem we have is unbelievers thinking they are believers and following the truth as they see it. We can only hope that some piece of truth will take root and grow.Here is some more explanations as to why the JWs NWT translation of John 1:1 is wrong!
How do Jehovah’s Witnesses’ teachings about Christ compare with Scriptures?
Many people are confused about the Jehovah’s Witnesses. People have written to ask if they are Christians or do they worship a different God? The following article may help to answer this important questions.Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christians have some things in common. For example, they share common concerns about religious apostasy, and they teach against Evolution.
Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christians do, however, differ on many important doctrines. In an attempt to keep this article to a reasonable length, let us not concentrate on ALL the differences. Rather…
…LET US INVESTIGATE THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.
JW’s believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is “a god,” but not “the God.” They teach that Jesus “was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah” and that “Christ and God are not coequal”.Does the Bible confirm their beliefs, or does it teach the orthodox Christian concept that Christ is God? This is an extremely important question. Consider the following points:
The Christ of the New Testament is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.
Isaiah wrote about seeing Jehovah in Isaiah 6:1-10.
In John 12:31-42, we are told that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke of Him
In Exodus 34:14 we are to worship no one but Jehovah.
In Hebrews 1:6 the angels worship Christ.
In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is called the first and the last (confirmed in Revelation 1:8),
but in Revelation 22:13 Christ is the first and the last.
These verses demonstrate that the name “Jehovah” is used for both God the Father and of God the Son. Although they are distinct persons they are each called “Jehovah” because they each possess deity.The deity of Christ is taught in Scripture.
In Matthew 1:23, Christ is called “Immanuel,” which means “God with us.”
When Thomas touched Jesus' wounds, after the resurrection, he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some JW’s say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said “my Lord,” but was referring to God (Jehovah) when he said “my God.” Instead, Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And Christ did not correct him! Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ when it states that in Him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” (New World Translation). Stephen called Jesus “Lord” (Acts 7:59,60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 12:3). “Lord” in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It is evident from this that Christ the Lord (kurios) is Jehovah God.Attributes of Christ show that He is God
Jesus Christ knows all things (John 1:48; 2:25; 6:64; 14:30; 21:17). He is all-powerful (Matt. 28:18; Heb. 1:3), sinless (John 8:46), eternal (Mic. 5:2), and unchanging (Heb. 13:8). Since only God possesses these attributes, Christ must be God.
Certain works of Christ show that He is God.
Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7; Eph. 1:7), give eternal life (John 10:28; 17:2), judge the world (John 5:22, 27), and control nature (Matt. 8:26). Since only God can do these things, Christ must be God.
Christ received worship as God.
Jesus is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt. 14:33), and yet only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone (Matt. 4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Jesus in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael, how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev. 19:10)? If Christ were not God, then worshipping Him would be idolatrous.
Jesus Christ is called “the mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6.
JW’s have a ready answer for this verse. They explain that Christ is “the mighty god.” but not “the almighty.” They say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never the mighty. However, Jeremiah 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty One. Therefore, since Christ is the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer. 32:18), they are both God. They both possess full deity.Christ is God, the Creator of all things according to Colossians 1:15-17.
JW’s refer to this passage to support their teaching that Christ was created by Jehovah (for example, Let God Be True, p.35). This is based primarily on the words, “the firstborn of all creation,” in verse 15. However, if this verse was teaching that Jesus Christ is the first created being made by God, the word “first-created” would have been used of Christ, not the word “firstborn.” These are two different words in the Greek, with two different meanings. “First-created” is protoktistos, and “firstborn” is prototokos. Colossians 1:15 does not use the protoktistos, “first-created.” Instead it uses prototokos, which means an heir, a begotten one, the first in rank. The teaching of Colossians 1:15 is that Christ is first in rank above all creation; He is the Heir of all things. He is prior to all creation and superior over it.The JW’s New World Translation adds the word “other” four times in Colossians 1:15-17, so that the passage states that Christ created “all other things,” everything except Himself. However, there is no basis for adding “other.” It certainly does not occur in the Greek manuscripts. The translators of the New World Translation admit this by putting “other” in brackets. This “translation” attempts to comply with the assumption that firstborn means first-created. But, as shown, this is not the meaning of firstborn, and therefore it is also wrong to add the word “other.” There is no verse in the entire Bible that states that Christ was created by Jehovah!
Christ claimed to be equal with God in John 10:30.
JW’s believe that this verse, “I and the Father are one,” means that Christ was one with God the Father in purpose and not in nature and essence. However, if that was all Christ was saying, why did the Jews want to stone Him? They themselves thought His purpose was the same as God’s. Verse 33 of John 10 explains that they wanted to stone Him because of blasphemy, because He claimed to be God!The deity of Christ is the central point of the Scriptures. It clearly teaches that Christ is God. The teachings of the Jehovah’s Witness' concerning Jesus Christ clearly contradict the teachings of the Bible. Passages such as Philippians 2:5-11 tell us that Jesus Christ, who existed as God, took the bodily form of a humble servant so that He could die on the cross in our place. “Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (kurios), to the glory of God the Father.”
Author: Mark Van Bebber of Eden Communications
Copyright © 1995, Eden Communications, All Rights Reserved – except as noted on attached “Usage and Copyright” page that grants ChristianAnswers.Net users generous rights for putting this page to work in their homes, personal witnessing, churches and schools.
Thank you WJ.
However, I lean toward simplistic explanations. Jesus was a carpenter as his earthly father, Joseph, was a carpenter. Jesus is deity as his one true father is deity. His father passed all power to him when he ascended into heaven and received his place on the throne next to his father. As the lamb of God he is the only one anywhere in heaven and earth who can break the seals on the scroll with seven seals. This is part of the message God gave to Jesus who sent it by the Angel of the Lord to John to write to the churches and record everything he was shown. I have faith that Jesus and God both know what they are doing and gratitude that I am part of it even though I am an ordinary woman of 68 with only a high school education, but I know that the fulness of the Spirit of God is always at work in me. My 28 year christian life has been in the study of Bible prophecy most of which I have published on my website. http://www.prophecybythebook.comThe very first verse that struck me when I started reading the Bible is…
Psalm 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest (not) they come near unto thee.I let him mold me as he pleases in accordance with his word.
Quote (hope2u @ May 17 2007,07:58) Thank you WJ.
However, I lean toward simplistic explanations. Jesus was a carpenter as his earthly father, Joseph, was a carpenter. Jesus is deity as his one true father is deity. His father passed all power to him when he ascended into heaven and received his place on the throne next to his father. As the lamb of God he is the only one anywhere in heaven and earth who can break the seals on the scroll with seven seals. This is part of the message God gave to Jesus who sent it by the Angel of the Lord to John to write to the churches and record everything he was shown. I have faith that Jesus and God both know what they are doing and gratitude that I am part of it even though I am an ordinary woman of 68 with only a high school education, but I know that the fulness of the Spirit of God is always at work in me. My 28 year christian life has been in the study of Bible prophecy most of which I have published on my website. www.prophecybythebook.comThe very first verse that struck me when I started reading the Bible is…
Psalm 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest (not) they come near unto thee.I let him mold me as he pleases in accordance with his word.
hope2uI apreciate your kind words.
I have checked out your website and find it very well done!
I will read more on your teachings as time allows!
Good to share with you and hope you stay around.
You seem to be a very wise and virtuos woman.
Blessings
Is 1:18, you stated:
“I think you are reading too much into 2 Peter 1:4 David….. And certainly the semantic range of “koinonos” does encompass the idea of participating, or fellowshipping in, something……”Of course you would think I am reading too much into a scripture that completely disproves what you believe. I would expect no less Is 1:18.
So what does it mean to participate or partake in divine nature?
“For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.”
Given that it speaks about escaping the corruption that is in the world and given that there are so many scriptures that speak about these ones these heavenly ones who would put on incorruption.
The Bible speaks of “an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for YOU,” (1 Pet 1:4)
1 CORINTHIANS 15:53
“For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.”2 TIMOTHY 1:10
“but now it has been made clearly evident through the manifestation of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death but has shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news,”1 PETER 5:4
“And when the chief shepherd has been made manifest, YOU will receive the unfadable crown of glory.”1 PETER 1:23
“For YOU have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”God is incorruptable, not made of flesh:
1 TIMOTHY 1:17
“Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible, invisible, [the] only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.”So, too, those who inherit the kingdom would put on incorruption.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-54
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one. However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.””1 CORINTHIANS 15:23-28
“But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”“For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.”
I think having escaped corruption (and gaining incorruption) is parallel with partaking of “divine nature.” God has divine nature and is incorruptable.
Humans will take on divine nature and incorruption.You also state, which is where you wanted the conclusion to land:
“There is, and will only ever will be, One divine being David.”Doesn't divine mean “godlike.” When the angels were called “gods” did you take that to mean they were “mighty ones” or that they were divine and godlike, spirits.
Quote If when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in Greek as it is the case here, the predicate nominative (in this case “theos”) it cannot grammatically have a definite article. If it did have a definite article, then its position in the sentence would make it the subject of the sentence. Also however, when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in the Greek, then the grammatical and stylistic effect is to emphasize the meaning of the predicate nominative and to give it the added effect of being a very forceful adjective.
So the statement in John 1:1 means that the Word, which is Jesus, is God–not just “a god,” like the Jehovah's Witnesses highly biased NWT suggests.
— CB
CB, unfortunately, nothing you said in the first two sentences leads to the conclusion in the third.
Let me help.
Definite article is “the.” (ho)
All you said was that in Greek, it couldn't have the definite article “the” but you didn't state whether or not it could have the indefinite article “a.”So, you didn't really say anthing.
Quote Isnt that what this is all about David? You come here to promote watchtower not to sincerely discuss John 1:1. —WJ
You are admittedly biased towards the NWT and JW's as well. It isn't me who is discussing JW's, but you. You are often guilty of the very thing you falsely accuse me of. It's frustrating.
The reason I started discussing this topic is because there are 14 threads on here about the trinity. Hence, people on here like to discuss it.
When speaking with people I have many times had them say: “You don't believe Jesus is God, so you're not a Christian. John 1:1.” (And the door closes.)
So you can't tell me that with common people, John 1:1 isn't an important trinity verse.
Hence, this discussion is appropriate and is something that fits in with what we've been discussing for the past years.But, you as usual try to attack the person and say I'm wrong because I'm a JW.
PlEASE stop the FALLACIES.Do you know you're thinking wrongly, or are you purposely using dishonorable tactics? This is my only question.
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