Was the apostle john an idolater?

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 12 2009,18:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 12 2009,17:22) Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,11:35) Thinker…….All who move Jesus to equality of GOD the FATHER, are Idolaters and create the MAN OF SIN as brought out in 2 Ths 2. Jesus is not now or ever was equal in POWER to GOD the FATHER, In fact the power He Has are not even His, as Shown in Revelations, He Has the Seven Spirits (intellect) or eyes (OF) GOD and they are on seven Horns (POWERS) These represent the seven Spirits (OF) GOD that go into all the earth, But He himself is pictured as a (SLAIN LAMB) Why, Because it is GOD working through Him BY His POWERS and Jesus Put (HIS WILL) to (DEATH) so now only GOD the FATHERS WILL is Being done. And as a result He represents the FATHER to US. But trying to Make (HIM) TRUE GOD IS IDOLATRY and is the (spirit) or intellect of Antichrist. AS John said clearly.  IMO peace and love………………..gene Hi Gene Why do you deny that Jesus has equal Power, Glory, Honour, Authority, and Praise as the Father? What does being at the Fathers “Right Hand” mean to you? He is not above the Father, nor beneath him, but at his right hand having “ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER”! The Father has exalted Jesus far above every name “In Heaven”, “In Earth” and “Under the earth”. Here is a riddle for you Gene. When he has done this, “then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him“, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28 Can you see it Gene? Tell me how it is that Jesus according to this scripture is not subject to the Father at this time, but in fact when all things are put under him (Jesus), then, and not until then, he will “subject himself” to the Father? How is he not then equal to the Father at this time when he is not subject to the Father, because he has all Power and all authority and he rules as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, therefore he is the The True God of this age (Titus 2:13, 1 John 5:20) that even the Spirit of God is subservient to. (John 16:13) And his Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom! Having all authority and all power means just that! Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power! (Heb 1:3) You diminish who Jesus is and make God after the image of a mere man, which brings dishonour to the Father who calls him “God”! (Heb 1:8) Even the Angels are commanded to worship him, and you are not higher than the Angels! All those who have created a false image of the invisible God, by seeing Jesus who is “the Image of the invisible God” or “God making himself visible”, as less than God, have commited Idolatry, IMO! WJ WJ, Amen bro! How can Jesus become subject to the Father if He is not equal now? It's so clear! thinker

Hi TT and WJ,

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Hey you guys!! (meant to be heard like Sloth from the Goonies) =)

anyway….I think, once again, you guys are missin it here.

The context of these verses is according to the time period that Jesus has come down from heaven to be our ruler here on earth which is ultimately through God's leadership up in heaven. When Jesus destroys the last enemy, which is death, he delivers the Kingdom to the Father, and then the Father comes down and rules over the kingdom Himself. The context is in Jesus ruling on earth through God's granted authority, and then God coming down and ruling Himself, making Jesus subject to his Father. Jesus is always subject to the Father in heaven, however on earth there is no one who he is subjected to, we are subject to him because he is our mediator to God.  When God comes down from heaven however, Jesus will then have someone on earth who he is subjected to. That is what the scriptures are showing IMO.  

Look at it like this, picture back in the olden days where the Father was truly the head of the household and his eldest son is his right hand man. Father has to go off to war so he puts his son in charge to carry out the Father's duties of running the place just as the Father would. The eldest son is running the place according to how his father would have ran it, he is acting as his father, taking his place. One day however the father returns from war, now the son is not only no longer taking the place of his father, he is under subjection to the father.

[RokkaMan]

Couldn't agree with you more ^^^^

As a trinitarian, I don't know what the actual “doctrin” describes as trinitarianism.

But as i've stated time and again.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all God.

3 persons, 1 Being.

kind of like the Spirit/Soul/Flesh of a Human Being.

The Father sits highest in authority and calls the shots.

The Son was used to make creation and communicate to it.
The Spirit is used to give insight to righteousness.

This way, we can praise and worship Jesus without it being Idolatry…if Jesus was not divine before and during earth, and now even after coming to earth.

Then the way he is regarded as savior is Idolatry, for he is a seperate God from the one true God…and not a part of the Godhead.

Do everything you Anti-Trinitarians say…I AGREE COMPLETELY as far as the things The Father and Son said in scripture.

When viewed this way, it all makes perfect sense to me.

But even with the trinitarians on this board, I cannot say Jesus is entirely equal to the Father…Now that is Idolatry as well.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene @ Aug. 13 2009,00:50)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 12 2009,17:22) Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,11:35) Thinker…….All who move Jesus to equality of GOD the FATHER, are Idolaters and create the MAN OF SIN as brought out in 2 Ths 2. Jesus is not now or ever was equal in POWER to GOD the FATHER, In fact the power He Has are not even His, as Shown in Revelations, He Has the Seven Spirits (intellect) or eyes (OF) GOD and they are on seven Horns (POWERS) These represent the seven Spirits (OF) GOD that go into all the earth, But He himself is pictured as a (SLAIN LAMB) Why, Because it is GOD working through Him BY His POWERS and Jesus Put (HIS WILL) to (DEATH) so now only GOD the FATHERS WILL is Being done. And as a result He represents the FATHER to US. But trying to Make (HIM) TRUE GOD IS IDOLATRY and is the (spirit) or intellect of Antichrist. AS John said clearly.  IMO peace and love………………..gene Hi Gene Why do you deny that Jesus has equal Power, Glory, Honour, Authority, and Praise as the Father? What does being at the Fathers “Right Hand” mean to you? He is not above the Father, nor beneath him, but at his right hand having “ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER”! The Father has exalted Jesus far above every name “In Heaven”, “In Earth” and “Under the earth”. Here is a riddle for you Gene. When he has done this, “then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him“, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28 Can you see it Gene? Tell me how it is that Jesus according to this scripture is not subject to the Father at this time, but in fact when all things are put under him (Jesus), then, and not until then, he will “subject himself” to the Father? How is he not then equal to the Father at this time when he is not subject to the Father, because he has all Power and all authority and he rules as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, therefore he is the The True God of this age (Titus 2:13, 1 John 5:20) that even the Spirit of God is subservient to. (John 16:13) And his Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom! Having all authority and all power means just that! Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power! (Heb 1:3) You diminish who Jesus is and make God after the image of a mere man, which brings dishonour to the Father who calls him “God”! (Heb 1:8) Even the Angels are commanded to worship him, and you are not higher than the Angels! All those who have created a false image of the invisible God, by seeing Jesus who is “the Image of the invisible God” or “God making himself visible”, as less than God, have commited Idolatry, IMO! WJ WJ……….You cleverly left out where it say “that when it say that all things are under Him it is Apparent that this does (NOT) mean the one who Subject all thing to HIM”. Something to consider one that it was GOD the FATHER (WHO) subjected all things under Jesus it was not Jesus who subjected all thing under himself by his own power, as a true GOD would be able to do. Notice also the scripture that says “the LORD said unto MY Lord sit on my right side until (I) make your enemies your footstool”. So who's doing the subjugating here, is it Jesus or GOD the FATHER. It never ceases how you people can twist the simple meaning of scriptures to try to force your points. Jesus is (NOT) now or ever was equal to the FATHER in POWER or Authority, He is subject to Him now and Always will be, as well as all creation is also.  The false teaching pushes the FATHER aside and advances Jesus to His equal and in most apostate churches they do not even mention the FATHER at all anymore. All who teach and Preach Jesus as (A GOD) and exulting Him A TRUE GOD, are turning the image of Jesus into the MAN OF SIN. This is the LIE mentioned in 2Ths2. Jesus is the ONE mentioned there who is Sitting in the temple of GOD being displayed as GOD. Wake up WJ before it to late dump that trinitarian garbage while there is time. IMO peace and love………………gene

Hi Gene

You are totally dodging the point. Please, instead of dancing around this why not be courageous enough to answer it.

I never said that the Father did not subject all things to Jesus, but in fact since the days of his flesh the Father has given him “All things” including all authority and power, (Matt 11:27, 28:18, Lk 10:22, Jn 3:35,13:3, 16:15), to him!

But you are denying that he “Has all power” and act as if he is just a mere man with no power, but just some puppet on a string. If the Father gave it to him, then that means he has it!

Then the end will come, “when he (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to God the Father “after he (Jesus) has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he (Jesus) must reign, till he (Jesus) hath put all enemies under his feet“. For he (the Father) “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God (the Father) himself, who (the Father) put everything under Christ.1 Cor 15:24-27

These scriptures teach that the Father has subjected everything under Jesus feet, therefore meaning everything is under Jesus. How clear is that? But, 1 Cor 15 reveals that even though the Father has put all things under him we do not yet see all things under him, but in fact it says that JESUS must reign and will destroy all dominion, authority and power, and bring everything under his feet and THEN the end will come and THEN Jesus will hand over the Kingdom to the Father, which brings me back to my original point to you which you did not answer, so I repeat it again…

When he has done this, “then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him“, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28

Can you see it Gene? Tell me how it is that Jesus according to this scripture is not subject to the Father at this time, but in fact when all things are put under him (Jesus), then, and not until then, he will “subject himself” to the Father?

But go ahead Gene and continue to bring Jesus down to your own level by creating an “image of the invisible God” that is not God at all!

WJ

[Jodi Lee]

So this has all got me thinking….

How would one feel if they were eye to eye with an angel?

How would one feel if they were eye to eye with Jesus?

How would one feel if they were eye to eye with God our heavenly Father?

Our God is a consuming fire, when Sodom and Gomorrah was seeing the havoc of God, Lot's wife turned around and became a pillar of salt.  This is because NO man can see God unless he has been purified of all sin.

God has to wait until the LAST enemy is destroyed, which is death, to be able to come down to earth.  Death is the punishment of sin, so if death has been destroyed then SIN no longer exists anywhere on earth. This is when and WHY God can come down to earth.

Before Jesus returns a person might have the privilege to be visited by an angel. That would be great, how would that move the spirit? Certainly not as much as when Christ comes down and we meet him and see him face to face.  However neither of those could even begin to compare to the moment of glory and honor of when YHWH our heavenly Father comes down and we meet Him personally. At this point it is hard to even imagine such a thing, though it should earnestly be in our hearts to believe that it will happen……we shall long for that day…..and it will be truly Amazing!!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 13 2009,02:17)

Couldn't agree with you more ^^^^ As a trinitarian, I don't know what the actual “doctrin” describes as trinitarianism. But as i've stated time and again. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all God. 3 persons, 1 Being. kind of like the Spirit/Soul/Flesh of a Human Being. The Father sits highest in authority and calls the shots. The Son was used to make creation and communicate to it. The Spirit is used to give insight to righteousness. This way, we can praise and worship Jesus without it being Idolatry…if Jesus was not divine before and during earth, and now even after coming to earth. Then the way he is regarded as savior is Idolatry, for he is a seperate God from the one true God…and not a part of the Godhead. Do everything you Anti-Trinitarians say…I AGREE COMPLETELY as far as the things The Father and Son said in scripture. When viewed this way, it all makes perfect sense to me. But even with the trinitarians on this board, I cannot say Jesus is entirely equal to the Father…Now that is Idolatry as well.

Hi

But if they are one being, how can they not be equal?

We do not claim that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit do not have different roles.

The Spirit is subject to the Son who is subject to the Father!

But as touching their nature they are completely and totally God!

WJ

[RokkaMan]

We ar ein complete agreement. WJ

Hi

But if they are one being, how can they not be equal?

I said THEY ARE equal, in essence.
Not in Authority.

So in your words > Spirit subject to > Son Subject to > Father

That is what I mean by NOT equal in authority.

So the Father sits supreme overall.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 13 2009,02:24)

So this has all got me thinking…. How would one feel if they were eye to eye with an angel? How would one feel if they were eye to eye with Jesus? How would one feel if they were eye to eye with God our heavenly Father? Our God is a consuming fire, when Sodom and Gomorrah was seeing the havoc of God, Lot's wife turned around and became a pillar of salt.  This is because NO man can see God unless he has been purified of all sin. God has to wait until the LAST enemy is destroyed, which is death, to be able to come down to earth.  Death is the punishment of sin, so if death has been destroyed then SIN no longer exists anywhere on earth. This is when and WHY God can come down to earth. Before Jesus returns a person might have the privilege to be visited by an angel. That would be great, how would that move the spirit? Certainly not as much as when Christ comes down and we meet him and see him face to face.  However neither of those could even begin to compare to the moment of glory and honor of when YHWH our heavenly Father comes down and we meet Him personally. At this point it is hard to even imagine such a thing, though it should earnestly be in our hearts to believe that it will happen……we shall long for that day…..and it will be truly Amazing!!

Hi Jodi

But you asume that what the Father has given Jesus he will take back!

1 Cor 15 does not teach that at all. It teaches that Jesus has been given all things and has full reign untill Jesus has put all enemys under his feet, then he will deliver the Kingdom to the Father of which he still will rule with the Father. Yet at this time Jesus has all rule!

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, “Mighty God“, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. “He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever“. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:6, 7

Jesus is and will thoughout eternity sit in the Father's throne  being worshipped with the Father…

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain“, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. …..”And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne” and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, “Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever“. Rev 5:6, 11-13

BTW Jodi, can you give me a scripture that says the Father will come down and appear from heaven?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 13 2009,02:37)

We ar ein complete agreement. WJ Hi But if they are one being, how can they not be equal? I said THEY ARE equal, in essence. Not in Authority. So in your words > Spirit subject to > Son Subject to > Father That is what I mean by NOT equal in authority. So the Father sits supreme overall.

Hi RokkaMan

But at this time Jesus has all authority, therfore he is supreme, for all is done in his name which is exalted above every name.

When the end comes, God will be all in all!

The Father and the Son together will rule forever with the Spirit proceeding from them to all of creation!

Blessings WJ

[KangarooJack]

Gene said:

Quote

WJ……….You cleverly left out where it say “that when it say that all things are under Him it is Apparent that this does (NOT) mean the one who Subject all thing to HIM”. Something to consider one that it was GOD the FATHER (WHO) subjected all things under Jesus it was not Jesus who subjected all thing under himself by his own power, as a true GOD would be able to do. Notice also the scripture that says “the LORD said unto MY Lord sit on my right side until (I) make your enemies your footstool”. So who's doing the subjugating here, is it Jesus or GOD the FATHER. It never ceases how you people can twist the simple meaning of scriptures to try to force your points. Jesus is (NOT) now or ever was equal to the FATHER in POWER or Authority, He is subject to Him now and Always will be, as well as all creation is also.  The false teaching pushes the FATHER aside and advances Jesus to His equal and in most apostate churches they do not even mention the FATHER at all anymore. All who teach and Preach Jesus as (A GOD) and exulting Him A TRUE GOD, are turning the image of Jesus into the MAN OF SIN. This is the LIE mentioned in 2Ths2. Jesus is the ONE mentioned there who is Sitting in the temple of GOD being displayed as GOD. Wake up WJ before it to late dump that trinitarian garbage while there is time.

Gene,
First I am getting sick and tired of your BIG mouth. Just exegete the scriptures and cut out with the insults.

Your views are not at all Christian. A true Christian cannot deny that Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords. You cite Psalm 110 and use it against Jesus trying to prove that He is NOW under the Father's authority. You are right that Psalm 110 says that the Father will put all things under Christ's feet. But Psalm 110 does NOT give us all the information. Paul tells us things that Psalm 110 does not.

Paul said that it is both the Father and the Son who will put an end to all rule.

Verses 24-26  CLEARLY indicate that it is the Son who subjects all things to Himself:

Quote

Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

The Greek “put” in verse 25 is in the active voice. This means that the subject of the verb (the Son) is doing the acting.

Verse 26 says that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. According to Hebrews it is the Son who will destroy death. Therefore, the Son participates WITH the Father in the destruction of all enemies. Hebrews 2:14 says,

Quote

“Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

.

The Son destroys both death and the devil. It says that “He (the Son) might destroy.” So how can you say that the Son does nothing? You say that the Son is now under the Father. Then explain why it says that He WILL BE under the Father. If He WILL BE under the Father then He is NOT under the Father now.

So please answer my three points:

1. Answer Paul's use of the active voice verb in verse 25 which says that the Son will “put and end” to all rule and authority.
2. Please answer Hebrew 2:14 which says that the Son will destroy death and the devil. According to Paul death is the “last enemy” to be destroyed.
3. Please explain why Paul said that the Son WILL BE made subject to the Father if He is already subject now.

Please answer these without insults. If you insult I will assume that my three points are above your ability.

thinker

[Cindy]

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 11 2009,19:57)

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 11 2009,11:25) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 11 2009,04:51) Irene said: Quote That is mainly why I call both God.  A lot of people have problems when it comes to believing that Jesus who was the Word in the Old Testament is called God. Irene, You say that both are called “God.” You say also that Jesus the Word of the old testament is called “God.” So Jesus is God then? thinker thunker Jesus us not God the way you want Him to be God, in the trinity.  The Father is greater then the Son.  And you know that I believe that, so why are you asking me.  Is it because of the New Member? For the sake of that New Member I will say this. God is a title.  Ore if you want to a Family Name.  We are caslled the Sons of God. My name is Smith not my real name, and our Sons name is Smith, so does that make them the same then me?  No they are a different being.  Our name is also a title.  That is the way I see.  If you have a better way of believing, tell me so and if you can prove it, I will see. Peace aand Love Irene Irene, What a lame explanation! There is no degree to being God. You are saying that Jesus is God but to a lesser degree. This is pure polytheism and you are just as idolatrous as you think I am. thinker

In John 1:1 the Word was with God and is God.
Hebrew 1:8 And to the Son He said:” Your throne, O God is forever and ever, A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.  Therefore God Your God has aointed you with the oil of gladeness more then Your companions.

In John 14:28 ….for my Father is greater then I.”

So what I said is true. Calling people names is uncalled for.
When you can't pove otherwise you have to do that, there is no way out for you. There is no trinity, you cannot prove that.
Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Thinker………..Simple, Jesus said (THOU ART THE ONLY TRUE GOD) What part of that don't you deluded TRINITARIANS UNDERSTAND, God himself said YOUR SHALL HAVE (NO ) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME, AND ON AND ON  IT GOES WITH MANY, MANY SCRIPTURES, So while you may say I have a big Mouth , for shouting the truth, You have a deluded Mind and believe (THE LIE) as all TRINITARIANS DO. If you doubt this Just read 2Ths 2 and maybe the light will go on, all though i doubt it. Anyone who does not believe Jesus is in (FULL) SUBJECTION TO THE FATHER IS SIMPLY A LIAR. “FOR I (ALWAYS) DO THOSE THINGS THAT PLEASE THE FATHER”> sounds to me like Jesus knows who to seek approval from and it's not himself. But lying TRINITARIANS say Jesus is (EQUAL TO THE ONE HE OBEYS), Pure garbage fostered by the APOSTATE CHURCHES. A LIE which Jesus himself will abolish at His return as explained in 2Ths 2. IMO

peace and love……………………….gene

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2009,18:45)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 13 2009,02:24) So this has all got me thinking…. How would one feel if they were eye to eye with an angel? How would one feel if they were eye to eye with Jesus? How would one feel if they were eye to eye with God our heavenly Father? Our God is a consuming fire, when Sodom and Gomorrah was seeing the havoc of God, Lot's wife turned around and became a pillar of salt.  This is because NO man can see God unless he has been purified of all sin. God has to wait until the LAST enemy is destroyed, which is death, to be able to come down to earth.  Death is the punishment of sin, so if death has been destroyed then SIN no longer exists anywhere on earth. This is when and WHY God can come down to earth. Before Jesus returns a person might have the privilege to be visited by an angel. That would be great, how would that move the spirit? Certainly not as much as when Christ comes down and we meet him and see him face to face.  However neither of those could even begin to compare to the moment of glory and honor of when YHWH our heavenly Father comes down and we meet Him personally. At this point it is hard to even imagine such a thing, though it should earnestly be in our hearts to believe that it will happen……we shall long for that day…..and it will be truly Amazing!! Hi Jodi But you asume that what the Father has given Jesus he will take back! 1 Cor 15 does not teach that at all. It teaches that Jesus has been given all things and has full reign untill Jesus has put all enemys under his feet, then he will deliver the Kingdom to the Father of which he still will rule with the Father. Yet at this time Jesus has all rule! For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, “Mighty God“, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. “He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever“. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:6, 7 Jesus is and will thoughout eternity sit in the Father's throne  being worshipped with the Father… “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain“, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. …..”And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne” and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, “Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever“. Rev 5:6, 11-13 BTW Jodi, can you give me a scripture that says the Father will come down and appear from heaven? WJ

Good Morning  WJ,

Give what back? Jesus will always be God's representative, His right hand man and mediator.

God our Father and His Son will both be leaders, and also the saints will have leadership positions as well. The important difference though, because for us there is ONE TRUE God the Father, is that Jesus and the saints RECEIVE there positions not by their own authority but are given these positions by God our Heavenly Father.

1 Cor 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.  

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”……………………………….21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. 22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a pure* river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

Re 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a* Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

WJ, read this again please

Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Ask yourself WHY, through what reason is Jesus worthy? Because he is the One TRUE God? No, we are told that's the Father. Jesus is worthy because he was the human being who fully followed God's will, being made just like us, being able to be tempted as we are, but he did not give into his own will, he instead acted fully upon the will of His Father, the ONE TRUE God. So even though he died taking on the punishment of sin, he was not deserving of that punishment so God raised him from the dead, and God made Jesus an immortal MAN.

Ask yourself, if Jesus were God why does he even have to be FOUND WORTHY of anything? Wouldn't he already BE worthy of all things? Why would he be in a position to RECEIVE, if he is truly the one and only God, he wouldn't need to receive a thing, he would already have all things.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savio
r, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,  6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

This is not a scripture that speaks of Jesus BEFORE he was raised from the dead, but AFTER. Jesus is not the ONE True God but the mediator to Him, and Jesus is still clearly a MAN, the root and offspring of David!!

Re 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

Jesus is the eternal king of which God had promised would come, from before the world began, and it was a message given throughout time to the prophets.

Hebrews 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Clearly here Jesus is not being worshiped as the One True God, but the FIRSTBORN, the First human to be born of immortality. Jesus is to be praised and honored, for his Father anointed him with the oil of gladness above his companions. Jesus is to be praised and honored according to the perfection of which he became after overcoming the world through the guidance of His Father’s Spirit.

[GeneBalthrop]

Jodi………..It's amazing how they (trinitarians) just can't get it. The delusion in them is powerful indeed. They can't even put together even the simple clear scriptures, they just ignore them as if they were not even in scriptures. AMAZING. Jodi keep up the good fight, this is indeed spiritual warfare Sis. God has given us an understanding that far surpasses their foolish and darkened minds. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 13 2009,10:57)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2009,18:45) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 13 2009,02:24) So this has all got me thinking…. How would one feel if they were eye to eye with an angel? How would one feel if they were eye to eye with Jesus? How would one feel if they were eye to eye with God our heavenly Father? Our God is a consuming fire, when Sodom and Gomorrah was seeing the havoc of God, Lot's wife turned around and became a pillar of salt.  This is because NO man can see God unless he has been purified of all sin. God has to wait until the LAST enemy is destroyed, which is death, to be able to come down to earth.  Death is the punishment of sin, so if death has been destroyed then SIN no longer exists anywhere on earth. This is when and WHY God can come down to earth. Before Jesus returns a person might have the privilege to be visited by an angel. That would be great, how would that move the spirit? Certainly not as much as when Christ comes down and we meet him and see him face to face.  However neither of those could even begin to compare to the moment of glory and honor of when YHWH our heavenly Father comes down and we meet Him personally. At this point it is hard to even imagine such a thing, though it should earnestly be in our hearts to believe that it will happen……we shall long for that day…..and it will be truly Amazing!! Hi Jodi But you asume that what the Father has given Jesus he will take back! 1 Cor 15 does not teach that at all. It teaches that Jesus has been given all things and has full reign untill Jesus has put all enemys under his feet, then he will deliver the Kingdom to the Father of which he still will rule with the Father. Yet at this time Jesus has all rule! For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, “Mighty God“, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. “He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever“. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:6, 7 Jesus is and will thoughout eternity sit in the Father's throne  being worshipped with the Father… “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain“, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. …..”And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne” and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, “Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever“. Rev 5:6, 11-13 BTW Jodi, can you give me a scripture that says the Father will come down and appear from heaven? WJ Good Morning  WJ, Give what back? Jesus will always be God's representative, His right hand man and mediator. God our Father and His Son will both be leaders, and also the saints will have leadership positions as well. The important difference though, because for us there is ONE TRUE God the Father, is that Jesus and the saints RECEIVE there positions not by their own authority but are given these positions by God our Heavenly Father.

Hi Jodi

No, you have not made anything clear, you have simply dodged the point that the Son is not at this time subject to the Father but in fact has “ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER AND REIGNS AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, AND IN FACT HAS A NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERY NAME BOTH IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH AND UNDER THE EARTH”!

And you sure have not shown in Revelations how the Father and the Son is worshipped differently!

Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a pure* river of water of life, clear as crystal, “proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb“. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but “the throne of God and of the Lamb” shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

In your quote above, did you conveniently over look the lamb in the throne and “The Spirit proceeding from them”?

Did you notice there is no need of the light for the “Glory of God” in it yet here we see who the light is…

23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. “The Lamb is its light“.

Imagine that the Glory of God illuminated it and the lamb is its light, therfore the Lamb (Jesus) is God, for he is the one who Illuminates it!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jodi

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 13 2009,10:57)

Give what back? Jesus will always be God's representative, His right hand man and mediator.

So what are you saying? That the Father has not given Jesus “ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER” and that he is not “REIGNING AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, AND IN FACT HAS A NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERY NAME BOTH IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH AND UNDER THE EARTH”?  

If he isn't then why does the scriptures clearly show us that he will hand the Kingdom back to the Father and will subject himself back to the Father so that God will be all in all.

BTW, When all things are made new and all things have been redeemed back to himself there will no longer be a need for a “Mediator”, and scripturally Jesus is in the throne reigning with the Father forever!

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ……….If Jesus (RECEIVED) POWER AND AUTHORITY that means He never had (it) BEFORE, Where does it say he ever had this power and authority before his resurrection or that He ever was a GOD co-equal with the FATHER., common since tells you that. IMO

peace and love………………..gene

[Jodi Lee]

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

This scripture is speaking from AFTER Jesus was raised from the dead, right after he became an immortal MAN with flesh and bones. that he STILL RECEIVES from His Father. Not by his own accord does Jesus have all authority and power, it has been GIVEN to him.

How do you dismiss the fact that Jesus was raised not as God, but as an immortal MAN?

Jesus did nothing of himself, he is worshiped through the work of the ONE TRUE God the Father. Our Father is worshiped because in HIM are ALL things, and ALL things exist through HIM, including Jesus.

Revelation refers to Jesus not as the ONE TRUE God, but as the LAMB, the human being that died for us. Revelation refers to Jesus not as God but as the Son of God. Revelation refers to Jesus not as God but as the root and offspring of David. Revelation refers to Jesus not as God, but as the Son of MAN.

Gene could not be more right you and other trinitarians dwell in a black hole of utter blindness and deception.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene @ Aug. 13 2009,11:38)

WJ……….If Jesus (RECEIVED) POWER AND AUTHORITY that means He never had  (it) BEFORE, Where does it say he ever had this power and authority before his resurrection or that He ever was a GOD co-equal with the FATHER., common since tells you that. IMO peace and love………………..gene

Hi Gene

Read Phil 2. and John 1:1, 18

The fact that he now has it is the point. What the Father has given him he will have for Eternity!

You still have not addressed the point.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jodi

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 13 2009,11:45)

How do you dismiss the fact that Jesus was raised not as God, but as an immortal MAN?

How do you explain that Jesus raised himself from the dead?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jodi

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 13 2009,11:45)

Jesus not as the ONE TRUE God, but as the LAMB, the human being that died for us. Revelation refers to Jesus not as God but as the Son of God. Revelation refers to Jesus not as God but as the root and offspring of David. Revelation refers to Jesus not as God, but as the Son of MAN.

Revelation describes Jesus also as the “Almighty”.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty“. Rev 1:7, 8

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last“. Rev 22:12, 13

WJ

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