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Irene said:
Quote That is mainly why I call both God. A lot of people have problems when it comes to believing that Jesus who was the Word in the Old Testament is called God. Irene,
You say that both are called “God.” You say also that Jesus the Word of the old testament is called “God.”So Jesus is God then?
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,02:38) Thuinker………We honor Jesus TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER, we only WORSHIP GOD THE FATHER NOT JESUS, when we submit to his authority we understand that GOD THE FATHER, has given him that authority, so we are really submitting to the FATHERS rule. Jesus is our brother and we are JOint Heirs with Him, He is (NOT) OUR GOD) HE IS OUR (BROTHER) We ONLY worship GOD and HIM ALONE, because there is (NO) GOD besides HIM as HE HIMSELF SAID, and that is who Jesus also worshiped by the way. Jesus was smart enough to know there was (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD, saying “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. Your denial of these scriptures is a stumbling block in you understanding. IMO peace and love……………………..gene
Gene,
I have never denied the scriptures you give. I said that I believe ALL of them. The Father called Jesus “God.” And the Revelation says the Father and the Son receive EQUAL worship,Quote And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” (Rev. 5:13)Note that it says that both the Father and the Lamb receive worship.
You say that you confess that Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father. But recently you have denied that Christ is Lord. Which is it friend? Is Christ King of kings and Lord of lords or not?
thinker
The son of a Monkey is a Monkey, the son of a Human is a Human. So the only begotten son of God is a God, but not a seperate God for God cannot have any other God's before him.
Everything in creation was made, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit came forth from the very essence of God the Father. They are all one God in spirit, but 3 seperate manifestations, with the Father sitting highest in AUTHORITY. So the son and holy spirit are subject to the father's will, even tho they have their own independant will. They are the same in essence and entity, it is 1 God.But, God is an infinite invisible being. If he is infinite and invisible then there is no way we can fathom his glory. There is no way to “know” him. He is beyond any senses we could possible have on any level.
So his “COMMUNICATION” to his creation, or….His WORD…..Jesus Christ was manifested IN creation. Jesus himself is basically a bridge of communication from the Father to HIS creation.
I believe when God appeared to everyone in the OT, it was the manifestation of Jesus pre Christ. Post Christ we receive him through God's KNOWLEDGE and WISDOM, a.k.a The Holy Spirit.
These manifestations are of God the father.So my understanding is that, if you glorify the Holy Spirit you Glorify the Father and Son, If you Glorify the Son, you GLorify the Father and the Holy Spirit. Because they are one God.
Kind of like H20….It can be a Gas, Liquid, or Solid….but it's still H20 in essence.
If you don't believe me, how about you believe scripture….
1 John 5:77For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
That's in the King James version, it doesn't get any simpler than that…and if you truly believe God divinely Authored the Bible, you cannot say any of his books were altered or manipulated in away. At least the King James version you can't =P
Also there's a very unique fingerprint of God within the OLD testament, that not only prophesied the coming of Jesus but also proved that Jesus was God made Flesh. Hence understanding Jesus is God in the flesh, with his wisdom and authority suspended in Heaven until his Ascension.
If Jesus was not God, his blood wouldn't suffice as the perfect apology for an infinite sin and offense caused to an infinite God.
So no Paul was not an idolater.
BTW if you want to know the special OT fingerprint of Jesus, send me a message. I only choose to reveal it to believers, because non-believers don't see the significance.
Also in Genesis, it states…God said let us make man in OUR image.
Why would God use a plurality to his own being that Moses understood, if he was ONE all around?
Only explaination to that in genesis is that, he's One in God…but 3 in person…Making man in OUR image
He made man neutral Gender with, communications, knowledge, and wisdom…ect…
Then seperated them and called them male and female.
And Elohim is a plural word.
Jesus is to be Our Lord and Savior, His Glory is of His Father.
You don't praise a Son's business, that was establlished by his Father, as if he started it. But you do praise him for maintaining and running it.
I myself altho I understand the plurality of God's person…but Onesss of his Essence. I Pray to the father in the name of Jesus.
For Jesus is his communication tunnel in a sense.
Jesus said if you honor the Son you Honor the father and vice versa….so I don't think it matters who you pray to, because you are praying to the same being. I just personally choose the Father while loving and honoring Jesus in His name.
Idolatry was praying to a river spirit. or the God of War…or God of fertility….
That's what made God jealous, because he knows that the Angels that rule over the waters and such, were created by him.
So the worship was Due to HIM the creator of all things made and not made.
If his Son comes in his Glory, why would he be made if you worshipped the Son just as much? The Son is to inherit ALL knowledge and Wisdom.
So once that takes place, he will be as Wise as God the father.
If that's so, he'll have all the abilities of his Father, just not the Authority…So yes, Jesus is God……the son.
Rokkaman said:
Quote Jesus said if you honor the Son you Honor the father and vice versa….so I don't think it matters who you pray to, because you are praying to the same being. I just personally choose the Father while loving and honoring Jesus in His name. RM,
Amen! And welcome. We may pray to Christ. Stephen did in Acts 7. And John said that if we ask anything of the Son of God according to His will He will give it to us.Quote These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.John clearly said that the things which he was writing were intended for them to “continue to believe in the Son of God.” One of the ways we show we have “confidence toward HIM is by petitioning Him.” It says that if we ask anything according to HIS will HE will give it to us. It cannot be denied that we may pray to the Son of God and that when we do we have “confidence toward HIM.”
Glad you're here. Please stick around.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 11 2009,04:51) Irene said: Quote That is mainly why I call both God. A lot of people have problems when it comes to believing that Jesus who was the Word in the Old Testament is called God. Irene,
You say that both are called “God.” You say also that Jesus the Word of the old testament is called “God.”So Jesus is God then?
thinker
thunker Jesus us not God the way you want Him to be God, in the trinity. The Father is greater then the Son. And you know that I believe that, so why are you asking me. Is it because of the New Member? For the sake of that New Member I will say this.
God is a title. Ore if you want to a Family Name. We are caslled the Sons of God. My name is Smith not my real name, and our Sons name is Smith, so does that make them the same then me? No they are a different being. Our name is also a title. That is the way I see. If you have a better way of believing, tell me so and if you can prove it, I will see.
Peace aand Love IreneQuote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 11 2009,08:05) Idolatry was praying to a river spirit. or the God of War…or God of fertility…. That's what made God jealous, because he knows that the Angels that rule over the waters and such, were created by him.
So the worship was Due to HIM the creator of all things made and not made.
If his Son comes in his Glory, why would he be made if you worshipped the Son just as much? The Son is to inherit ALL knowledge and Wisdom.
So once that takes place, he will be as Wise as God the father.
If that's so, he'll have all the abilities of his Father, just not the Authority…So yes, Jesus is God……the son.
Welcome to Heaven Net. I hope that you will bring us some truths and understand of the Word of God, the Bible. Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords in the Millenium. He is not equal with our Heavenly Father. The Father is above all.
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Bu Jesus own words He said in
John 14:28…….for My Father is greater than I.I sure hope that you understand that there is no trinity, nowhere in the Bible does it say that.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 11 2009,11:25) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 11 2009,04:51) Irene said: Quote That is mainly why I call both God. A lot of people have problems when it comes to believing that Jesus who was the Word in the Old Testament is called God. Irene,
You say that both are called “God.” You say also that Jesus the Word of the old testament is called “God.”So Jesus is God then?
thinker
thunker Jesus us not God the way you want Him to be God, in the trinity. The Father is greater then the Son. And you know that I believe that, so why are you asking me. Is it because of the New Member? For the sake of that New Member I will say this.
God is a title. Ore if you want to a Family Name. We are caslled the Sons of God. My name is Smith not my real name, and our Sons name is Smith, so does that make them the same then me? No they are a different being. Our name is also a title. That is the way I see. If you have a better way of believing, tell me so and if you can prove it, I will see.
Peace aand Love Irene
Irene,
What a lame explanation! There is no degree to being God. You are saying that Jesus is God but to a lesser degree. This is pure polytheism and you are just as idolatrous as you think I am.thinker
Thinker…….All who move Jesus to equality of GOD the FATHER, are Idolaters and create the MAN OF SIN as brought out in 2 Ths 2. Jesus is not now or ever was equal in POWER to GOD the FATHER, In fact the power He Has are not even His, as Shown in Revelations, He Has the Seven Spirits (intellect) or eyes (OF) GOD and they are on seven Horns (POWERS) These represent the seven Spirits (OF) GOD that go into all the earth, But He himself is pictured as a (SLAIN LAMB) Why, Because it is GOD working through Him BY His POWERS and Jesus Put (HIS WILL) to (DEATH) so now only GOD the FATHERS WILL is Being done. And as a result He represents the FATHER to US. But trying to Make (HIM) TRUE GOD IS IDOLATRY and is the (spirit) or intellect of Antichrist. AS John said clearly. IMO
peace and love………………..gene
Were my Posts Ignored? Why haven't you guys refuted my scriptural evidence for a trinity?
1 John 5:7, Summurized….There are 3 that bear witness in Heaven? The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit?
I do not believe Jesus is OVERALL equal to the Father.
I Believe Jesus is equal in essence to the father because he CAME FORTH from the Father, as did the Holy Spirit.
But he is less in Authority. Being Less in Authority alone makes him less than the father.
This allows for Jesus and The Holy Spirit to be the same entity AS tha father…all being 1 God. Just Manifested in 3 persons…Like h20 is manifested as Ice, Water, and a Gas.
If Jesus is not from God the father himself, then he is a created being Given the spiritual Powers of God…therefore being A GOD. If he is A God before the True God…then that means God lied when he said there are no God's before him…which God cannot do.
Remeber the Jews claimed Jesus Blasphemed for they said ONLY God has the power to forgive sins. And Jesus claimed to be able to do that =P So what does that tell you?
Why do you think the Jews wanted to pick up stones, to stone Jesus. Because he claimed to be God when he stated what the father said to Abraham…”I tell you truly, before Abraham Was…I AM”
and if you look again in 1 John 5:7 Scripturally, you see the trinity… “There are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit..and these 3 are 1.”
Please don't ignore these claims and then try and justify your ideas when they are in scripture.
This line alone
PAY ATTENTION
THIS LINE ALONE STATES THE FATHER SON AND HOLY SPIRIT ARE ONE.
That is the trinity. Thank you.
O and I'm sorry, it was what the Father said to Moses, was the same thing Jesus said to the Jews in regards to Abraham.
Also scripture tells us blaspheming against the Son will be forgiven, but blaspheming agains the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven? What manner is the Holy Spirit, if Blashpheming against Jesus, Angels, Men, Animals, Miracles, Prophecy ect…can all be forgiven, but Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit will not. Even asking for forgiveness through Jesus will not grant forgiveness for that Sin.
Sin The Holy Spirit is The Father's Manifested Wisdom as a person, I can understand why insulting God's Wisdom will not be forgiven.
But Insulting his Manifested Word (Jesus Christ) can be….
Please address the above post before addressing this one.
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 12 2009,03:35) Thinker…….All who move Jesus to equality of GOD the FATHER, are Idolaters and create the MAN OF SIN as brought out in 2 Ths 2. Jesus is not now or ever was equal in POWER to GOD the FATHER, In fact the power He Has are not even His, as Shown in Revelations, He Has the Seven Spirits (intellect) or eyes (OF) GOD and they are on seven Horns (POWERS) These represent the seven Spirits (OF) GOD that go into all the earth, But He himself is pictured as a (SLAIN LAMB) Why, Because it is GOD working through Him BY His POWERS and Jesus Put (HIS WILL) to (DEATH) so now only GOD the FATHERS WILL is Being done. And as a result He represents the FATHER to US. But trying to Make (HIM) TRUE GOD IS IDOLATRY and is the (spirit) or intellect of Antichrist. AS John said clearly. IMO peace and love………………..gene
Gene,
It clearly says in Exodus that you shall have no OTHER gods. Irene says that Jesus is a god. If I am an idolater then so is Irene.thinker
You need to understand something people.
For the creator of the universe/everything… To choose the Creation of the Human Race to bear his offspring, Jesus Christ.To reconcile Mankind with it's creator. This is the most serious act of humbletude known to anything.
What's even more humbling is that the creator of everything, condemned his Only Begotten Son to the punishment of a sinner.
To create a path so that if the most righteous can be condemned for a sin he did not commit.
Then the most filthy may be forgiven for a sin he DID commit, in belief that his maker loves him/her THAT MUCH.
The Humbletude of allowing his Son to Die for us expresses such a love from our God that non of our senses can even come close to a fraction of fathoming how much our God loves us.
And to know his Son, who is God in flesh (not the Father in flesh, THE SON in flesh) reduced himself to be with us is why this is so significant.
If Jesus was but a mere man and only a man, then how can he reconcile us with God?
Scripture reveals he must be part God and part Man to reconcile the bridge between us. Amen
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 12 2009,05:54) You need to understand something people.
For the creator of the universe/everything… To choose the Creation of the Human Race to bear his offspring, Jesus Christ.To reconcile Mankind with it's creator. This is the most serious act of humbletude known to anything.
What's even more humbling is that the creator of everything, condemned his Only Begotten Son to the punishment of a sinner.
To create a path so that if the most righteous can be condemned for a sin he did not commit.
Then the most filthy may be forgiven for a sin he DID commit, in belief that his maker loves him/her THAT MUCH.
The Humbletude of allowing his Son to Die for us expresses such a love from our God that non of our senses can even come close to a fraction of fathoming how much our God loves us.
And to know his Son, who is God in flesh (not the Father in flesh, THE SON in flesh) reduced himself to be with us is why this is so significant.
If Jesus was but a mere man and only a man, then how can he reconcile us with God?
Scripture reveals he must be part God and part Man to reconcile the bridge between us. Amen
Amen!thinker
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,11:35) Thinker…….All who move Jesus to equality of GOD the FATHER, are Idolaters and create the MAN OF SIN as brought out in 2 Ths 2. Jesus is not now or ever was equal in POWER to GOD the FATHER, In fact the power He Has are not even His, as Shown in Revelations, He Has the Seven Spirits (intellect) or eyes (OF) GOD and they are on seven Horns (POWERS) These represent the seven Spirits (OF) GOD that go into all the earth, But He himself is pictured as a (SLAIN LAMB) Why, Because it is GOD working through Him BY His POWERS and Jesus Put (HIS WILL) to (DEATH) so now only GOD the FATHERS WILL is Being done. And as a result He represents the FATHER to US. But trying to Make (HIM) TRUE GOD IS IDOLATRY and is the (spirit) or intellect of Antichrist. AS John said clearly. IMO peace and love………………..gene
Hi GeneWhy do you deny that Jesus has equal Power, Glory, Honour, Authority, and Praise as the Father?
What does being at the Fathers “Right Hand” mean to you?
He is not above the Father, nor beneath him, but at his right hand having “ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER”!
The Father has exalted Jesus far above every name “In Heaven”, “In Earth” and “Under the earth”.
Here is a riddle for you Gene.
When he has done this, “then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him“, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28
Can you see it Gene? Tell me how it is that Jesus according to this scripture is not subject to the Father at this time, but in fact when all things are put under him (Jesus), then, and not until then, he will “subject himself” to the Father?
How is he not then equal to the Father at this time when he is not subject to the Father, because he has all Power and all authority and he rules as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, therefore he is the The True God of this age (Titus 2:13, 1 John 5:20) that even the Spirit of God is subservient to. (John 16:13)
And his Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom!
Having all authority and all power means just that!
Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power! (Heb 1:3)
You diminish who Jesus is and make God after the image of a mere man, which brings dishonour to the Father who calls him “God”! (Heb 1:8) Even the Angels are commanded to worship him, and you are not higher than the Angels!
All those who have created a false image of the invisible God, by seeing Jesus who is “the Image of the invisible God” or “God making himself visible”, as less than God, have commited Idolatry, IMO!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 12 2009,17:22) Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,11:35) Thinker…….All who move Jesus to equality of GOD the FATHER, are Idolaters and create the MAN OF SIN as brought out in 2 Ths 2. Jesus is not now or ever was equal in POWER to GOD the FATHER, In fact the power He Has are not even His, as Shown in Revelations, He Has the Seven Spirits (intellect) or eyes (OF) GOD and they are on seven Horns (POWERS) These represent the seven Spirits (OF) GOD that go into all the earth, But He himself is pictured as a (SLAIN LAMB) Why, Because it is GOD working through Him BY His POWERS and Jesus Put (HIS WILL) to (DEATH) so now only GOD the FATHERS WILL is Being done. And as a result He represents the FATHER to US. But trying to Make (HIM) TRUE GOD IS IDOLATRY and is the (spirit) or intellect of Antichrist. AS John said clearly. IMO peace and love………………..gene
Hi GeneWhy do you deny that Jesus has equal Power, Glory, Honour, Authority, and Praise as the Father?
What does being at the Fathers “Right Hand” mean to you?
He is not above the Father, nor beneath him, but at his right hand having “ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER”!
The Father has exalted Jesus far above every name “In Heaven”, “In Earth” and “Under the earth”.
Here is a riddle for you Gene.
When he has done this, “then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him“, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28
Can you see it Gene? Tell me how it is that Jesus according to this scripture is not subject to the Father at this time, but in fact when all things are put under him (Jesus), then, and not until then, he will “subject himself” to the Father?
How is he not then equal to the Father at this time when he is not subject to the Father, because he has all Power and all authority and he rules as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, therefore he is the The True God of this age (Titus 2:13, 1 John 5:20) that even the Spirit of God is subservient to. (John 16:13)
And his Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom!
Having all authority and all power means just that!
Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power! (Heb 1:3)
You diminish who Jesus is and make God after the image of a mere man, which brings dishonour to the Father who calls him “God”! (Heb 1:8) Even the Angels are commanded to worship him, and you are not higher than the Angels!
All those who have created a false image of the invisible God, by seeing Jesus who is “the Image of the invisible God” or “God making himself visible”, as less than God, have commited Idolatry, IMO!
WJ
WJ,
Amen bro! How can Jesus become subject to the Father if He is not equal now?
It's so clear!thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 12 2009,17:22) Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,11:35) Thinker…….All who move Jesus to equality of GOD the FATHER, are Idolaters and create the MAN OF SIN as brought out in 2 Ths 2. Jesus is not now or ever was equal in POWER to GOD the FATHER, In fact the power He Has are not even His, as Shown in Revelations, He Has the Seven Spirits (intellect) or eyes (OF) GOD and they are on seven Horns (POWERS) These represent the seven Spirits (OF) GOD that go into all the earth, But He himself is pictured as a (SLAIN LAMB) Why, Because it is GOD working through Him BY His POWERS and Jesus Put (HIS WILL) to (DEATH) so now only GOD the FATHERS WILL is Being done. And as a result He represents the FATHER to US. But trying to Make (HIM) TRUE GOD IS IDOLATRY and is the (spirit) or intellect of Antichrist. AS John said clearly. IMO peace and love………………..gene
Hi GeneWhy do you deny that Jesus has equal Power, Glory, Honour, Authority, and Praise as the Father?
What does being at the Fathers “Right Hand” mean to you?
He is not above the Father, nor beneath him, but at his right hand having “ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER”!
The Father has exalted Jesus far above every name “In Heaven”, “In Earth” and “Under the earth”.
Here is a riddle for you Gene.
When he has done this, “then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him“, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28
Can you see it Gene? Tell me how it is that Jesus according to this scripture is not subject to the Father at this time, but in fact when all things are put under him (Jesus), then, and not until then, he will “subject himself” to the Father?
How is he not then equal to the Father at this time when he is not subject to the Father, because he has all Power and all authority and he rules as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, therefore he is the The True God of this age (Titus 2:13, 1 John 5:20) that even the Spirit of God is subservient to. (John 16:13)
And his Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom!
Having all authority and all power means just that!
Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power! (Heb 1:3)
You diminish who Jesus is and make God after the image of a mere man, which brings dishonour to the Father who calls him “God”! (Heb 1:8) Even the Angels are commanded to worship him, and you are not higher than the Angels!
All those who have created a false image of the invisible God, by seeing Jesus who is “the Image of the invisible God” or “God making himself visible”, as less than God, have commited Idolatry, IMO!
WJ
WJ……….You cleverly left out where it say “that when it say that all things are under Him it is Apparent that this does (NOT) mean the one who Subject all thing to HIM”. Something to consider one that it was GOD the FATHER (WHO) subjected all things under Jesus it was not Jesus who subjected all thing under himself by his own power, as a true GOD would be able to do. Notice also the scripture that says “the LORD said unto MY Lord sit on my right side until (I) make your enemies your footstool”. So who's doing the subjugating here, is it Jesus or GOD the FATHER. It never ceases how you people can twist the simple meaning of scriptures to try to force your points. Jesus is (NOT) now or ever was equal to the FATHER in POWER or Authority, He is subject to Him now and Always will be, as well as all creation is also. The false teaching pushes the FATHER aside and advances Jesus to His equal and in most apostate churches they do not even mention the FATHER at all anymore. All who teach and Preach Jesus as (A GOD) and exulting Him A TRUE GOD, are turning the image of Jesus into the MAN OF SIN. This is the LIE mentioned in 2Ths2. Jesus is the ONE mentioned there who is Sitting in the temple of GOD being displayed as GOD. Wake up WJ before it to late dump that trinitarian garbage while there is time.
IMOpeace and love………………gene
Amen to that wonderful explanation brother Gene on 1Cor 15:28. Trinitarians are often misled by the dilemma of more than one God. Jesus is not another God who is equalent to Father but a man like you and me exalted to the level of sitting with God the Father the only true God.
Thanks and love to you
Adam
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