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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2012,12:14) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 27 2012,04:56) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2012,01:44) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 26 2012,18:42) Hi Pierre, You should be glad when others agree with you, but instead
YOU seem to relish when 'your words' are not understood. …this IS quite puzzling?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion,
but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
edj1Co 14:28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
1Co 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
1Co 14:30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.
1Co 14:31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
1Co 14:32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints,and you are definitively not a saint
Hi T,
You are like a ittle yappy dog that races around fiercely barking but does not quite know why it is upset.Sit
NQuote Hi T,
You are like a ittle yappy dog that races around fiercely barking but does not quite know why it is upset.Sit
to be true ,a man words would be equally be applied to himself
this is how we know he is a righteous man ,
so SITand have a great day
Quote (jammin @ Mar. 26 2012,19:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,14:59) Quote (jammin @ Mar. 25 2012,21:51) how can i answer the question of mike if we are not done yet with the term firstborn of death??? he should first admit that his logic is wrong.
The questions on the bottom of page 5 don't concern the term “firstborn”, jammin.I already knew the arguments I would get with Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14, because I've discussed them at length many times before.
The purpose of this thread was to show people like you that it will take more than twisting the meaning of those two scriptures to “prove” that Jesus has existed from eternity.
The Acts 4 prayer is only the beginning of the scriptures we'll discuss – scriptures that all point to Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14 meaning exactly what they say.
I realize you're scared. I realize you've read the post at the bottom of page 5 already, and cannot think of how you will answer. And I realize that is why you would rather keep bringing up that one Job verse instead of moving on with the discussion.
therefore mike you cant read your opinion in col 1.15 and rev 3.14i suggest you make your own version
Hi Jammin, you are right!Mike says (in essence) Rev 3:14 can mean he had a beginning
and I believe Col 1:15 means that Jesus was the first created.All this is done in an attempt to make Scripture conform to his understanding.
I have explained this to Mike, but he simply turns his back to this information.(I'm looking forward to see which Scripture he will use next.)
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;G-746 ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
(Strong's) Definition: magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.Hey, that's kinda sounds like this verse…
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2012,14:27) Quote (jammin @ Mar. 26 2012,19:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,14:59) Quote (jammin @ Mar. 25 2012,21:51) how can i answer the question of mike if we are not done yet with the term firstborn of death??? he should first admit that his logic is wrong.
The questions on the bottom of page 5 don't concern the term “firstborn”, jammin.I already knew the arguments I would get with Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14, because I've discussed them at length many times before.
The purpose of this thread was to show people like you that it will take more than twisting the meaning of those two scriptures to “prove” that Jesus has existed from eternity.
The Acts 4 prayer is only the beginning of the scriptures we'll discuss – scriptures that all point to Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14 meaning exactly what they say.
I realize you're scared. I realize you've read the post at the bottom of page 5 already, and cannot think of how you will answer. And I realize that is why you would rather keep bringing up that one Job verse instead of moving on with the discussion.
therefore mike you cant read your opinion in col 1.15 and rev 3.14i suggest you make your own version
Hi Jammin, you are right!Mike says (in essence) Rev 3:14 can mean he had a beginning
and I believe Col 1:15 means that Jesus was the first created.All this is done in an attempt to make Scripture conform to his understanding.
I have explained this to Mike, but he simply turns his back to this information.(I'm looking forward to see which Scripture he will use next.)
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;G-746 ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
(Strong's) Definition: magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.Hey, that's kinda sounds like this verse…
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjCol 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.you forgot to mention these scriptures in your eloquent discussion so Christ and Paul all are liars now
Hi Pierre,
“God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH):
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.
18: And he(Jesus)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…
16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…
1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himselfCan you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?
Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.
Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (terraricca @ Mar. 27 2012,07:38) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2012,14:27)
Hi Jammin, you are right!Mike says (in essence) Rev 3:14 can mean he had a beginning
and I believe Col 1:15 means that Jesus was the first created.All this is done in an attempt to make Scripture conform to his understanding.
I have explained this to Mike, but he simply turns his back to this information.(I'm looking forward to see which Scripture he will use next.)
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;G-746 ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
(Strong's) Definition: magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.Hey, that's kinda sounds like this verse…
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjCol 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.you forgot to mention these scriptures in your eloquent discussion so Christ and Paul all are liars now
PIERRE, (I post this to you, but I know you will not understand)Romans 8:29-31 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also
called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEDJ
Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
Col 1:13 For he(God) has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he(God) loves,
Col 1:14 in whom(Jesus) we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.Col 1:15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him(Jesus the him is the same and refers to the HE) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He(Jesus) is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he(Jesus) is the head of the body, the church; he(Jesus) is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he(Jesus) might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him(Jesus) to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heavenJn 1:14 The Word (Jesus) became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who(Jesus) came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
their is no doubts in my mind of what is written in scriptures ,your view in scriptures are your personal views ,not mine in what it is written is what it is,
Quote Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH):
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.
18: And he(Jesus)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.LET SEE YOURS EDDY VERSUS THE SCRIPTURES
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2012,08:14) Hi Pierre, “God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH):
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.
18: And he(Jesus)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…
16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…
1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himselfCan you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?
Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.
Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Pierre,Did you read this Post?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2012,15:47) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2012,08:14) Hi Pierre, “God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH):
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.
18: And he(Jesus)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…
16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…
1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himselfCan you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?
Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.
Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Pierre,Did you read this Post?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDJyes I did ,and show you the scriptural version of it ,I have add your description and now you can see the difference between them
edj
Quote Hi Pierre, “God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)Eph 5:7 Therefore do not be partners with them.
Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
Eph 5:9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)
Eph 5:10 and find out what pleases the Lord.
Eph 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Eph 5:12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
Eph 5:13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible,
Eph 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
“Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
Eph 5:15
Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise,Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,23:10) We both agreed that the term firstborn was literal and that it happened before the ages. What we never agreed on was that it meant first created.
I'm sorry Kathi, I misspoke. You are correct that you and I agreed that Jesus was BEGOTTEN before the ages, not CREATED. Sorry for the mental slip.I will mention once more that anyone in the history of the world who has ever been begotten or born is also a creation of God. “Begotten”, “born”, and “created” are not exclusive of each other.
I was begotten by my father, born by my mother, and am yet a creation of my God.
So your argument that the “firstborn of every creature” cannot be a creature is not only moot, but factually untrue.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2012,23:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,10:50) Ed, The point of Acts 4 is very simple. It depicts who exactly created the heavens, earth, sea, and everything in them. That One is “God”.
Then, in verse 30, it clearly lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the God who created the heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them.
If Jesus is not the One who created all those things, than he has no choice but to be one of those things that was created by the One they prayed to – the One who DID create all those things.
It was a very simple concept to grasp, and I'm sorry you were unable to grasp it.
Mike,I agree that this post is on topic.
Thanks Kerwin.There are more scriptures like that coming. I knew going into this thread the battles I would face with Col 1:15 and Rev 3:14.
This thread was never meant to be about those two scriptures, but more about the many OTHER scriptures that end the argument over what those two scriptures truly mean.
Stick around for some other scriptural proofs that Jesus was created by his God.
Quote (Colter @ Mar. 26 2012,05:28) You make a very valid, logical point, who were the apostles praying to when referring to the servant, their Lord Jesus Christ?
Thanks for taking the time, Colter. I read your post, and there is much I would like to discuss with you as time permits – but not on this thread.The only point I was making with Acts 4 is that Peter and John clearly prayed to someone Luke called “God”. Peter and John attributed the creation of EVERYTHING in heaven to that One.
Verse 30 makes it clear that Jesus is someone other than that One they prayed to, for he is listed as the servant OF that One.
So, if Jesus is NOT the One they prayed to – the One who created EVERYTHING in heaven – then Jesus has no choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING” in heaven that was created by that One.
I can't see any other way around it.
Anyway, I have more such scriptures coming; and I hope you'll address them as well when I post them.
peace,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2012,11:51) edj
this is Mike'sQuote If Jesus is not the One who created all those things, than he has no choice but to be one of those things that was created by the One they prayed to – the One who DID create all those things. IF JESUS IS NOT THE ONE WHO CREATED ALL THOSE THINGS,
THAN HE(CHRIST) HAS TO BE ONE OF THOSE THING THAT WAS CREATED,
BY THE ONE THEY PRAYED TO,(GOD)
BECAUSE GOD HIS THE ONE THAT CREATED ALL THOSE THINGS
so what Mike says must have been in regard to prove that Jesus is a creation ,through the action of prayers done by believers
Yes Pierre. Kerwin picked up on it right away. So did Colter and Nick and you. But to Ed, it is “as clear as mud”.I couldn't tell you why.
jammin? Kathi? Read the post right above this one and see if you can find any fault in my and Pierre's reasoning.
If not, I'll post my next scripture.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,18:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,23:10) We both agreed that the term firstborn was literal and that it happened before the ages. What we never agreed on was that it meant first created.
I'm sorry Kathi, I misspoke. You are correct that you and I agreed that Jesus was BEGOTTEN before the ages, not CREATED. Sorry for the mental slip.I will mention once more that anyone in the history of the world who has ever been begotten or born is also a creation of God. “Begotten”, “born”, and “created” are not exclusive of each other.
I was begotten by my father, born by my mother, and am yet a creation of my God.
So your argument that the “firstborn of every creature” cannot be a creature is not only moot, but factually untrue.
Mike,
No problem, I'm glad you realized what we agreed on in the good ole' daysQuote I will mention once more that anyone in the history of the world who has ever been begotten or born is also a creation of God. “Begotten”, “born”, and “created” are not exclusive of each other. The contention is not about 'anyone in the history of the world' it is about the one called the 'firstborn of all creation.' That firstborn cannot possible be created as the first of his kind. A firstborn and a first of his kind cannot be the same thing. Adam was the first created of his kind but was not considered a firstborn. Cain was the first man considered to be a firstborn. It is in this situation that one cannot possible be a literal firstborn AND the first created of his kind.
The third being of a kind can be a firstborn and a creation if creation doesn't mean created out of no other of his kind like the first of a kind is. That would have two different senses of the word creation.
Anyway, in conclusion, the literal firstborn of his kind CANNOT POSSIBLY be the first created being of his kind. A literal firstborn requires that another OF HIS KIND had to exist beforehand whom the literal firstborn is from…
…otherwise the firstborn would not be a literal firstborn.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,18:34) jammin? Kathi? Read the post right above this one and see if you can find any fault in my and Pierre's reasoning. If not, I'll post my next scripture.
Mike,
Yes I find fault with your reasoning but we are not discussing Acts 4 yet, even though we have already had this conversation about Acts 4 about 59 times already…ok, so maybe I'm exaggeratingQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 26 2012,18:55) Big fallacy of the Jesus is created group is they equate firstborn with first created yet it doesn't:
Firstborn is not translated from the word/words that would be translated 'first created.' Yet they want to lay down a doctrine on this fallacy. Dangerous stuff guys! Was Jesus the 'first created from the dead'? Scripture doesn't say that either, does it?
Kat the least we did not twist the scriptures it is only your opinion
therefore, mike still cant prove his belief that christ is created.
col 1.15 rev 3.14 talks about supremacy of christ.
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