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Revelation 3:14 NASB ©
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:The “Jesus is God” crowd is quick to point out that the Greek word “arche” can mean either “beginning” or “ruler” – as in Michael the Archangel.
- But I still list 3:14 because in it, Jesus points out that it was “God” who created. Notice he doesn't say, “the beginning/ruler of MY OWN creation”.
- Also, wouldn't “God” be the true ruler of the creation of “God”?
Colossians 1:15 NASB ©
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.Again, the “Jesus is God” people like to claim that “firstborn” means “preeminent” in this case – claiming that this scripture teaches Jesus is “preeminent over all creation”.
- But I list it anyway to point out that the firstborn of the flock is also a member of the flock.
- And even in the metaphorical use of “firstborn”, like when God made David “the firstborn of the kings of the earth”, it is understood that while David was not the literal first king of the earth, he is still a member of the group called “kings of the earth”.
- It stands to reason that being the firstborn of the group known as “creation” would mean that one is part of the group known as “creation”.
- In fact, the Greek words “pas ktisis” can be translated as either “all creation” or “every creature”. So, wouldn't the firstborn of “every creature” also BE a creature?
- Also, wouldn't God be preeminent over His own creation?
- Finally, can anyone imagine God Almighty being called the “firstborn” of anything?
This is just the tip of the iceberg to get the ball rolling. I've compiled many more scriptures that aren't often used for the purpose of proving that Jesus is a creation of his God. And I hope that together, we'll uncover even more.
But these two will get the discussion started.
firstborn of death is also a member of the death?? is that what you mean mike??
your logic is wrong. it depends on how it will be used
Jesus is the firstborn FROM the dead, jammin.
Adam was the firstborn FROM the dust of the earth.
But tell me, is the firstborn of the flock also a member of the flock? YES or NO?
Hi Mike, you know what they say about the word assume, right? (ass: u-me)
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;G-746 ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
(Strong's) Definition: magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.Hey, that's kinda sounds like this verse…
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (jammin @ Mar. 26 2012,10:18) firstborn of death is also a member of the death?? is that what you mean mike?? your logic is wrong. it depends on how it will be used
hiCol 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,what Paul is saying here is that Christ is the one who was created first and he is also the first to show the way to salvation to those who believe in him,by being the first in dead and the first to be resurrected from the dead ,in this way all true believers will follow him and trust in God just as he did .
so all others understandings would be contrary to truth
Mike,
Where does it say the bolded part that you have in quotes, in scripture?
“And even in the metaphorical use of “firstborn”, like when God made David “the firstborn of the kings of the earth“, it is understood that while David was not the literal first king of the earth, he is still a member of the group called “kings of the earth”.”Thanks,
KathiPierre,
Good post and quite right, my friend.
Nick and Ed, do you believe Jesus was created? If so, you are arguing against the choir here. This thread was for people like jammin, Carmel, Lightenup, etc., that believe Jesus has always existed.
Do YOU two think Jesus has always existed?
Kathi,
Psalm 89:27 Young's Literal Translation
I also first-born do appoint him, Highest of the kings of the earth.English Standard Version (©2001)
And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.Darby Bible Translation
And as to me, I will make him firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.Big fallacy of the Jesus is created group is they equate firstborn with first created yet it doesn't:
Firstborn is not translated from the word/words that would be translated 'first created.' Yet they want to lay down a doctrine on this fallacy. Dangerous stuff guys! Was Jesus the 'first created from the dead'? Scripture doesn't say that either, does it?Kathi,
When you were born, you were created. You became a new, INDIVIDUAL creation by being born.
The firstBORN of the flock is still a CREATION of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,19:54) Kathi, Psalm 89:27 Young's Literal Translation
I also first-born do appoint him, Highest of the kings of the earth.English Standard Version (©2001)
And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.Darby Bible Translation
And as to me, I will make him firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.
So Mike,
Scripture doesn't exactly put it like you quote it, does it? In that verse it shows pre-eminence of the kings, the 'highest' of the kings Mike.That's EXACTLY what I said, Kathi. I said that EVEN IN situations like David's, where “firstborn” wasn't literal, but used to show preeminence, he was STILL a member OF the group of which he was appointed the firstborn.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,19:02) Hi MB,
You mean the new creation?
Yes
rev 3.14
Where do you read the word “new” in Rev 3:14, Nick?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,19:57) Kathi, When you were born, you were created. You became a new, INDIVIDUAL creation by being born.
The firstBORN of the flock is still a CREATION of God.
Mike,
I existed before I was born by about 9 months. Birth is not a creation but a bringing forth of what already existed for a time. God's design for men and animals is that they are created and knit together in the womb in mammals anyway, then days or months later, they are born. They do not get the title of 'firstborn' at conception but at birth. Do we really need to go over this again?
Have you missed not talking about this?The FirstBORN of all creation was born, not created. A birth is NOT an act of creation.
'All creation' means all creation, not just man or animals but trees, sun, moon, stars, etc. 'All creation' is not a flock of anything.
Hi MB,
Jesus Christ is the one who was dead and is alive forevermore, the first and the last, the beginning of the creation of God.From the perspective of Revelation there is only one relevant creation.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,20:03) That's EXACTLY what I said, Kathi. I said that EVEN IN situations like David's, where “firstborn” wasn't literal, but used to show preeminence, he was STILL a member OF the group of which he was appointed the firstborn.
Mike,
He wasn't appointed as the 'firstborn of all kings'. Scripture doesn't say those words. This is what it says:“I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.
He was made the firstborn of God, not the firstborn of kings. It doesn't say that “I also shall make him the firstborn of the kings” does it!
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 26 2012,12:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,20:03) That's EXACTLY what I said, Kathi. I said that EVEN IN situations like David's, where “firstborn” wasn't literal, but used to show preeminence, he was STILL a member OF the group of which he was appointed the firstborn.
Mike,
He wasn't appointed as the 'firstborn of all kings'. Scripture doesn't say those words. This is what it says:“I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.
He was made the firstborn of God, not the firstborn of kings. It doesn't say that “I also shall make him the firstborn of the kings” does it!
you are right kathi.
mike is just addng words to this verse.now mike you said the firstborn of the flock is also a member of the flock.
therefore the firstborn of death is also a member of the death
Job 18:13
King James Version (KJV)
13It shall devour the strength of his skin: even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength.
you logic is wrong mike.
it depends on how it will be used.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,19:09) Hi MB,
Jesus Christ is the one who was dead and is alive forevermore, the first and the last, the beginning of the creation of God.From the perspective of Revelation there is only one relevant creation.
So, because in YOUR OWN mind this is how you see it, you are willing to ADD the word “new” into the scripture, Nick?Aren't we warned against such things?
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