Was jesus always superior

[terraricca]

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 15 2010,12:30)

To all, Please excuse Mikeboll's rantings…he has just copy and pasted the same thing he always posts when he can't get his iwn way, 'I ask a simple question and you can't answer'. Now, and if WJ did that, JustAskin does not do that. Check the 'Mike vs ja' debate. Mike asks a quesion but when he gets the answer that 'HE' doesn't like he rephrases it, or simply ignores the response, and continues to claim that he has not been answered. See in the debate that after everything said here, Mike is now saying that 'Some Angels may have been created through Jesus'…'for Not All Angels are Rulers and not are All rulers are Angels'. Hmmm…seems like he will soon be saying that they weren't created through Jesus at all because that would mean that Jesus wouldnlt have created these 'wicked evil rulers who he will later triumph over. Who are these 'Rulers' that Jesus created? Why did Jesus created wicked evil rulers…does this mean that Satan was not the father of the lie but that he was created that way by Jesus? Mike names the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece as two of the evil wicked Angelic rulers, or, Principalities. So, they did not come about by Satan's influence but by their creation through Jesus….! Is there something missing here… It is continually being said that everything was created 'through' Jesus…but keep forgetting to say 'Created BY God', 'everything was created BY God and, without Him, there is not a thing that is made that was made'..'for every house has a Maker' (Stuart, take note)

JA

the way i see this ,God created all things trough Christ,by him and FOR HIM ,this part is to say that it was plan from now on like Gen;3-15, all things were lay out to fulfil all things so that Christ will be at the end turn all things to God,

God says that no power is existing by is own will ,but only by the will of God,
this does not mean that God created that power,
those powers are coming out of the wickedness of men,so it is God who control there wickedness,and so make things has he wanted them to be.

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 14 2010,13:35)

To All, Have I been missing something here. What does Romans 1:3-4 say… That Jesus is declared Son of God according to the Spirit of Holiness, by the RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD. Why have we been missing this for all this time….and all this discussion and debate…and there it was all the time…. Mike, what you say about this?

Romans 1:4 without words left out…

NET ©
who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power 1 according to the Holy Spirit 2 by the resurrection 3 from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.

NIV ©
and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God, by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

NASB ©
who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

MSG ©
his unique identity as Son of God was shown by the Spirit when Jesus was raised from the dead, setting him apart as the Messiah, our Master.

BBE ©
But was marked out as Son of God in power by the Holy Spirit through the coming to life again of the dead; Jesus Christ our Lord,

NRSV ©
and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

NKJV ©
and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

The Son of God, according to the flesh, was declared to be the Son of God WITH POWER. Before hand, He hadn't been given all authority, nevertheless, He was still the Son of God.

[shimmer]

Quote

Quote How many times He wanted to gather them under his wing. But they would not. See, wing…angel, Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2010,06:38) Jesus was referring to a mother hen gathering her chicks under her wing to protect them.  This passage has nothing to do with any “wings” that spirit Jesus either has or doesn't have.

It depends what you know. I wont get into it on here… but I believe Jesus has wings. I take this verse here as it says.

Quote

So, could Jesus have still been “an angel”?  Possible, but if so we know two things.  First, he was the “angel” through whom all the other angels were brought forth, and so he is more superior than them.  Second, we definitely know he is something that is “better than the angels” now, for many scriptures teach us this.  So the thought that there are only “angels” and “God” in heaven is a fallacy.

I agree. And this is the main thing, Jesus could have been an Angel. Many agree with that. But was Jesus the highest Angel ? Was He always superior ? Thats the question. I find JAs fractal scriptures quite interesting. As I said my mothers writen about the same thing though iv never realy read what she wrote,

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2010,06:53)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2010,15:02) Mal 2:7 “For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction—because he is the messenger of the LORD Almighty. Hey Pierre, I guess that Levi was “an angel” too then.  He was a “messenger of God's word”, so he must have had wings and lived in heaven just like the other angels, huh? People, learn from what Pierre is teaching.  Just because one is a “messenger”, does not mean he belongs to the “order of angels” in heaven.  Both Levi and Jesus were “messengers” of God's word, but that doesn't mean either have to literally be what we consider as “angels”. peace and love, mike

Yeah, and Jesus was risen above the messengers, Youngs literal has it as messengers. Not Angels. It says “To which of the other messengers did he say…”

I was going to ask what are the messengers and is there a difference but I didnt.

[shimmer]

Hebrews 1:5….YLT….

“For to which of the messengers said He ever, 'My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, 'I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'”

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 15 2010,06:00)

It depends what you know. I wont get into it on here… but I believe Jesus has wings. I take this verse here as it says.

Hi Shimmer,

Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Jesus never says “his wings”.  He only speaks of gathering God's nation together “as a hen gathers her chicks under HER wings”.  So if you take the verse as it says, then you'll agree that hens have wings, but nothing is said about Jesus having them.

Shimmer:

Quote

But was Jesus the highest Angel ? Was He always superior ? Thats the question. I find JAs fractal scriptures quite interesting.

I too find it “interesting” Shimmer.  Just as I find the Mormon belief that God was once human and we will all be “Gods” interesting.  But probably not for the same reason you do.  I find it “interesting” that anyone with half a brain can gain these understandings from the same scriptures that I read.

Now, would it be kind of “cool” if Jesus was appointed like David and Isaac were?  Sure.  And would it be “cool” to be the one to “discover” this “fractal” fact?  Sure.  But how can one even entertain the thought against Col 1:15-16?  That right there proves it false.

And why do we know all about Ismael and King Saul, although they were replaced with “appointed” firstborns, but there is not one thing in the scriptures about Satan being the “real” firstborn?

Time to leave fantasy behind and stick with the scriptures Shimmer.  All invisible things in heaven were created through God's firstborn Son.  That's really all there is to it.  End of story.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 15 2010,06:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2010,06:53) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2010,15:02) Mal 2:7 “For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction—because he is the messenger of the LORD Almighty. Hey Pierre, I guess that Levi was “an angel” too then.  He was a “messenger of God's word”, so he must have had wings and lived in heaven just like the other angels, huh? People, learn from what Pierre is teaching.  Just because one is a “messenger”, does not mean he belongs to the “order of angels” in heaven.  Both Levi and Jesus were “messengers” of God's word, but that doesn't mean either have to literally be what we consider as “angels”. peace and love, mike Yeah, and Jesus was risen above the messengers, Youngs literal has it as messengers. Not Angels. It says “To which of the other messengers did he say…” I was going to ask what are the messengers and is there a difference but I didnt.

Hi Shimmer,

The word “angel” simply means “messenger”.  And I'm glad you realized that Young didn't really say “OTHER” messengers.  

I took your “firstborn” post to the “When was Jesus begotten” thread.

mike

[shimmer]

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 15 2010,01:49)

Shimmer, You have, once again, brought light to some where previously they were in darkness. Even so, some who are in darkness, cannot bear the light, for it uncovers theirs errors. And, as much as the light should be a delight to their sight it is still likely that they might remain hidden under their bushell out of sheer fright. How many times has it been outlined that the term 'Son of God' is not to be taken as in a literal sense. And neither should the term, 'Begotten'. Each must be taken contextually, not strained nor force fitted. There is no Scripture verse that states that God 'Created' or 'Procreated' Jesus…nor the Angels. Yet, it is obvious that they came into being at some point in time…before the creation of the heaven and earth and all within. Spirits, and God is Spirit, do not 'Procreate'…Procreation is a flesh and blood version of Creation of offspring…like for like…in flesh. All animals, all fish, insects, mankind…procreate, trees, flowers…all flora and fauna procreate, bring forth offspring of their own kind. No Spirit is ever said to 'Procreate'. No Spirit is ever said to have brought forth another of it's own kind, except in metaphor…Jesus said that some of the people were the …offspring… of satan, and also Judas was called the 'Son of Perdition' (Mike, does this mean Judas was literally given birth to by Satan, oops… THE Satan, as THE Son, we hear of no other, so therefore, THE ONLY Begotten Son of The Satan) So, 'Procreation' is ruled out for Spirits. Thence, and therefore, it must be by 'Creation' that Jesus and the Angels came into being. And, if by creation, all that is created, sentient bengs, are thence 'Sons of God'…and, guess what…it's what Scriptures calls them,…'Sons of God' (Genesis, Job, …elsewhere) What does it mean, then, to be 'Son of God'? well Shimmer, you point out a very apt verse which describes it perfectly, and there are others. So, seeing that we have a definition from Scriptures that plainly shows that it is ANY that walks in the way of God (…and, Mike, shows that they who do not…are not!!!) and that even 'things..like Societies, Nations, individuals and groups' can become, 'Begotten', taken up, raised up, adopted, set apart in higher eminence(PreEminence), it shows that every mentioning of 'Sons of God' and 'Begotten', concerning Spiritual matters is, contextually, non-literal. So, logically, Jesus WAS created and WAS [a] Son of God. But….so were the [other] Angels. In Job, where was Jesus when the convening took place? Satan, the great adversary came among them…balance…where is the balance. If Satan was there, who provided the opposing force? God Almighty…God himself, not another Angel. So powerful and 'high minded' was this 'Satan' that he could stand in the face of God and be disrespectful to his creator and his creator's creation. But see here…Satan came in aming the Sons of God, and …Satan… WAS a Son of God! Satan appears to have had free reign to 'rove to and fro over the earth' doing as he will. Most Angels are directed to do tasks, but Satan is not one like them exactly and can do things from his own will. Thus his challenge to God results in 'Do as you will, do your worst…except, don't kill Job!!' To which other Angels could such an open invitation be given, even in negativity? How many other Angels would have power and authority, might and ability, to act according to their own will? I warrant that maybe two or four, or twelve. Should I ask who you think these other Angels with such abilities might have been? So, Sons of God, but with differing Rankings. These Two, or four or twelve, call these, the 'Might Ones', or 'Principal Sons', or simply 'Princes' Lucifer, because of his opposition to God, becomes, 'the fallen Prince'. Jesus, because f his righteous works becomes preEminent among his 'Princely brethren' and the most beloved of his God and Father. But this is not the preEminence like begetting spoken of in Scriptures for it says 'To which of the Angels did God ever say…', and Satan and Jesus and the other Princes, are Angels at that time… There is nothing in Scriptures that 'shows' that the other Angels revered Jesus or that Jesus had did anything other than the acts that God committed to him and that he carried them out in full, as did every other Angel given a commission, for they were empowered to carry out the will of God at all costs…but even so, some Angels, had to be aided against stronger forces…the Angel sent to Daniel…which shows that Satan was far stronger than many of the other Angels, even giving his own power to an evil spirit ruler who themself withstood one as powerful as Gabriel, and it was he would had to be aided by Michael, ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCES. So, Son of God…as Man. Adam was first Son of Man, and became not so by sinning. So then Jesus came in the fashion of Adam, a second Adam, Son of God, son of God in the flesh. And reverently remained so…the ONLY Son of God in the flesh at that time…the only Righteous Man walking fully in the way of God. God brought him into the world, and he glorifies God as it is written in Hebrews 10:5. And then he died in sacrifice and is raised up again, coming into the world again, as it is written in Hebrews 1:6. And thence, he is taken up in Spirit, having accomplished all, and is declared: 'Son of God' as man in Spirit, different from 'Son of God' in the flesh, different from 'Son of God' in Angelic Spirit. Son of God in the spirit body of man, as is written in Daniel 7:13-14.

JA, I really get that. That was a good post. It makes perfect sense.

[shimmer]

OK Mike,

[terraricca]

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 15 2010,12:35)

To All, Have I been missing something here. What does Romans 1:3-4 say… That Jesus is declared Son of God according to the Spirit of Holiness, by the RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD. Why have we been missing this for all this time….and all this discussion and debate…and there it was all the time…. Mike, what you say about this?

JA

you should not take and show half of Paul comment;

so i will;Ro 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
Ro 1:4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

SO PAY ATTENTION TO VERSE 3 WERE IT SAYS ;;AS TO HIS HUMAN NATURE WAS DESCENDANT OF DAVID,

so you try to miss represent truth???

i think so ,you should know that because it is in your quoted scriptures or do you not read what you are posting??

Pierre

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2010,06:35)

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 14 2010,11:53) I want to start up a couple of seperate threads, theres too many different things here. Jesus as an Angel Jesus begotten when ? (Hang on, thats allready been done) etc…later I might. Hi Shimmer and All, I agree with you here Shimmer.  This thread has “blossomed” into a lot of thoughts about a lot of different things.  And it is hard to get to the bottom of any one thing when there are so many. JA posts alot like WJ does.  He fills his posts with the entire “world according to JA”.  But he is unable to answer even the most simple straight forward question that refutes his belief.  I've dealt with this from WJ many times.  For example: Jesus is God because: 1.  I and the Father are one. 2.  Honor the Son just as you honor the Father. 3.  Thomas called him “God”. 4.  Paul said he “Laid the foundations of the earth”. 5.  Many people “worshipped” Jesus. SO THERE, MIKE! But whenever I try to break all of these “world according to WJ” thoughts down and scripturally refute each and every one of them, he bails or refuses to honestly and directly answer straight forward questions.  Like JA, he claims, “I've already answered it” as his answer, when in fact he hasn't done anything but ignore it and hope I will just stop asking. And when WJ lumps all these unrelated scriptures together in one post, it makes a pretty fair sounding case for Jesus being God.  But when you get to the heart of each separate claim he makes, it's easy to figure out that the way he's understanding it is not the lesson the scriptures are actually teaching.  Each one of these 5 points above are easily explained in the light of other scriptures, but who has the time and energy to refute them all in every single response to WJ?  And even when I have, he ignores the rebuttal and just posts even more out of context scriptures – all at once again. Like the “I and the Father are one”.  Jesus also says his hope is for some of us to become “one” with him and the Father.  Now WJ knows this doesn't mean we will also be God, but he will ignore this fact, and later post the exact same “I and the Father are one” in the midst of another 10 out of context scriptures.  It's like a never ending chase because he will not actually stand and defend any one of his claims, but instead just keeps claiming many at a time in post after post. This is what JA is doing here.  And you have all seen me repeatedly ask ONE SIMPLE QUESTION that is the key to refuting his entire belief that Jesus was “just one of the many angels”.  He won't answer the questions that I ask, but instead just keeps loading his posts with slanted scriptures and logic.  Anyone can do that.  I want the truth of the matter, so I want to take one claim at a time and one scripture at a time and one post at a time.  But he knows if that were to happen, his unscriptural “theory” would become exposed for the fallacy that it is. So Shimmer is right here.  And I was also looking for the proper “begotten” thread yesterday to transfer that part of what we're discussing over there. I'm not aware of a “Does God have a 'body'?” thread, so maybe I'll start one. That will leave this thread open to get to the bottom of whether or not Jesus was always something more superior to the angels. peace and love, mike

It is annoying when people do that. Avoid scripture you give them, I know, been there with many people over the years, real life and internet,  

But with JA and a couple of others, eg Mark,  I think alot of it has to do with different personalities. JA is 'expressive' so likes to build a 'picture' of what he is saying (am I right JA ?)

[mikeboll64]

Right or wrong, it still is a dead give away when someone refuses to answer the most simple questions that are asked of them.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 15 2010,06:44)

JA, I really get that. That was a good post. It makes perfect sense.

Yeah, I really liked the part where he claims that no spirit is ever said to procreate. Yet “procreate” simply means “to beget”, and we know God is Spirit, and we know God beget a Son.

Yep, good scriptural stuff JA.

mike

[mikeboll64]

To All,

I have made a “Do spirits have bodies?” thread for that topic. And I have bumped the “When was Jesus Begotten” thread for that topic.

So that should leave only the question of whether Jesus was always superior or not for this thread, right?

mike

[kerwin]

Shimmer,

You wrote:

Quote

It is annoying when people do that. Avoid scripture you give them, I know, been there with many people over the years, real life and internet,

I have been accused of doing that when I was addressing the scripture by addressing other more basic ideas in scripture that must be properly understood in order to understand the initial scripture. I have had the same type of problem in math when in order to do a more complicated problem you must know how to solve more basic problems.

[terraricca]

mike

right on

pierre

[JustAskin]

I am getting to think the more the truth of the Scriptures is revealed the more the members in this forum become deluded…

I'm screaming in spiritual agony at certain people here..

Kathi,
Why are you 'telling me off' when the very thing you are 'correcting' me on…is what i have been saying for ages.

Terra, why are you telling me off when the very thing you are 'correcting' me on is what i have been saying for ages…

Mike, you are so twisted with deceit you can't even acknowledge truth anymore.

[shimmer]

JA, we are in the last days. Sometimes, when you try to get people to see things, they wont see it. I have tried so many times with people over the words “perish, death, second death, etc” they think it means something else ? Like theyre stupid or something, The point is you cant change them.

[JustAskin]

Shimmer, if i could say something to you here, i would but i will say 'thank you' instead.

Yes, i was angry just now and you rightly dissuade me with soft words as Scriptures says to do.

You deserve the sure blessings and mercies of Christ.

God Bless you.

[seekingtruth]

I must not of been clear, the corporal manifestation of the Father existed from the foundations of creation until the physical makeup of the manifestation (that contained all of the Father that could be contained within our reality) was emptied and took the form of a human.

He was the Son of God, begotten from the Father. He was the Son of man born of a woman.

My opinion – Wm

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