Was jesus always superior

[terraricca]

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 14 2010,03:10)

Shimmer, Mike has no Spiritual side. That's why he thinks in the fleshly way. If he thinks God ca be put in a container then even that, if anything, that he speaksas truth, is of no value. For his 60% truth is totally overturned by his 40% fallacy. Mike can't reconcile scriptures with fleshly thinking. He thinks 'begotten' means God 'procreated' Jesus, God from God, a half Trinity. Ask Mike, 'Who are the Sons of God'. He will not answer for he fears to answer seeing that his remit is to say 'God has only One Son, Jesus'. Yet, Scriptures clearly states that all who walk in the way of God, is to be called, 'a Son of God'. The Angels who convened with God, were also called, 'Sons of God'. The Angels who forsook their place and came into created bodies in the days of Noah, were called, 'Sons of God', Lucifer, was a 'Son of God' before he fell in sin. Adam, the first man, was 'Son of God'…until he fell in sin… Jesus was born, pure, sinless, therefore he was 'Son of God', then he died and was raised, reborn, as a Spirit, man in Spirit, the final end that was meant for Adam, God's intent from the beginning…what Jesus achieved, was what Adam should have been. Jesus, fulfilling the Word of God. The true Spirit Man, the true 'Son of God'. The true Son of God is one of Man in the Spirit, the true bridge between God in Holy Spirit, and Mankind in holy flesh form, The most righteous Angelic Son of God is sent as man to take the place of the first man, and for what reason, and for what reward.. The greatest prize, the glory seat next to his God. Shimmer, you are absolutely right about the three times 'Son of God': 1) Yes, Mike, stress, Mike, be a pest Mike, and the rest, Mike. Jesus came into being at some point in time … So he was ceeated … Therefore he was a 'Son of God' like All the other Angels who are said to be a 'Son of God', Angelic Sons of God. 2) Jesus emptied himself of this divine status and became 'lower than the Angels' as a man (therefore he was not Superior but 'lower' and subject to the rule of Satan, else how could Satan offer Jesus the earthly kingdom if Jesus was in a Superior position…the superior person cannot be tempted, or would be foolish to be tempted, by something lesser than that which he already posseses) However, since man with the Spirit of God, who walks in the way of God, is called 'Son of God', then Jesus, like Adam, is a Son of God. In fact, so much so is he 'like' the first Man, Adam, he is called, the SECOND ADAM…meaning he is the one and ONLY SINLESS Man, by creation from the Holy Spirit. Could he then be said to be 'the Only [Fleshly] Son of God'? 3) To which of the Angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have become your Father'… Well, none… But he said this to Jesus. Ok, examine this…what others are mentioned in Scriptures other than God, Angels and Man? None… Jesus was MAN….he emptied himself of his Divine Angelic Form and became MAN….And he still is MAN, even now, but an exhalted MAN in Spirit, as was meant for the FIRST ADAM, the first MAN, Jesus fulfilled that which was purposed for the first man, Adam. Therefore, To none of the Angels, but to Him, the Second MAN, the one who successfully completed that which God purposed, to that 'Man', Jesus as Man, raised from the dead, not Angel, to him did God say, You are my Son, today I have become your father', and, 'I will be unto him a father, and he will be my Son', this is what is known as 'the Adoption', 'Begotten', 'Raised up'…all qualified by 'in the Spirit'. So, in summary: 1) Jesus, Divine Son of God in Angelic form; 2) Jesus, Holy Spirited Son of God in Human flesh form, Man; 3) Jesus, Begotten Son of God, Man in Spirit form.

JA

your summery #1 ,should be, was in a godly form ,what that may be .

Pierre

[kerwin]

Irene,

I am confused by what you meant when:

You wrote:

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I don't think so….He is the literal Son of God, bought forth from His Father.

Since there is only one god who is God.

Can you clarify what you meant so Jesus is not a deity?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 13 2010,22:16)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2010,15:53) Are you ready to get into “begotten” yet?  Or should we come to a better understanding of each other on these other things first? Mike, ok, but im just taking an interest in what JA is saying at the moment. He has my attention, sorry, im still listening to you.

Fair enough Shimmer. Let's put it on hold while we sort through this other stuff.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Pay attention here Shimmer.

JA:

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Mike can't reconcile scriptures with fleshly thinking.

I reconcile them completely JA.  It is YOU who must rearrange perfectly clear scriptures like Col 1:16 to make them fit around YOUR theory.  I have no theories.  I just take the scriptures for what they say, and if they say all invisible things in heaven were created through Jesus, I believe them.

JA:

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He thinks 'begotten' means God 'procreated' Jesus, God from God, a half Trinity.

You have borrowed a trinitarian “word game” here JA.  God is a person.  God cannot beget Himself.  But God is also a spirit being, and He can and did beget a Son who is a spirit being.  You play a game that causes some to stumble.  But others of us clearly see through it.  God Almighty did not beget God Almighty.  God beget the SON of God.  

Abraham did not beget Abraham, but the son of Abraham.  This son was LIKE Abraham, but not him.  Similarly, God did not beget God, but the Son of God.  This Son was LIKE God, but not Him.

JA:

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Ask Mike, 'Who are the Sons of God'. He will not answer for he fears to answer seeing that his remit is to say 'God has only One Son, Jesus'.

What?!?  Jesus, angels and men are the sons of God.  But only one is ever called THE Son of God.  Do you ever wonder why JA?  Could this one be a son of God in a special way that all the others aren't?  Could he be the only one who was begotten directly by God?  Oh yeah, that's exactly what the scriptures tell us.  Now we know why only Jesus is called THE Son of God when God has many sons.

JA:

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Yet, Scriptures clearly states that all who walk in the way of God, is to be called, 'a Son of God'.

Scriptures do not say that fallen angels and men who don't walk in the way of God are no longer his sons.  At least not that I'm aware of.  Do you know of a scripture?

JA:

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The most righteous Angelic Son of God is sent as man to take the place of the first man, and for what reason, and for what reward.. The greatest prize, the glory seat next to his God.

JA, is Jesus an angel now?  Yes or no.

JA:

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Jesus came into being at some point in time … So he was ceeated

Agreed.

JA:

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Therefore he was a 'Son of God' like All the other Angels who are said to be a 'Son of God', Angelic Sons of God.

Can the being the angels were created through be just like the ones who were created through him?  Which of the angels did God EVER call His begotten Son?  You refuse to accept that Jesus was God's only begotten Son before he was even sent into the world, although many scriptures say he was.    Here's just one of them:

1 John 4:9-10
9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Is it really that hard to understand that Jesus was God's only begotten Son who was sent into the world to die as a sacrifice for us all?  You say he wasn't “begotten” until he was raised, but how did he die for us AFTER he was raised?

Here's another that shows Jesus was God's firstborn from the beginning.

Hebrews 1:6
But when he again brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all the angels of God do obeisance to him!”  

JA, how many times has God's firstborn “been brought” into the world?  His return will be his “second coming”, right?  So God must have at some prior time brought His firstborn into the world, right?

JA:

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To which of the Angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have become your Father'… Well, none…

Agreed.  He said it to no angel, only Jesus.  That right there should tell you that Jesus was always something better than the angels.  Because this was said to Jesus in the beginning………..before the angels were created through God's only begotten Son.  And we know this from many scriptures.  But I don't want to keep going through it over and over, because it is a heavy load.  So when Shimmer is ready, we can all let the scriptures walk us through it start to finish, okay?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 14 2010,04:09)

The closest you can come to putting an infinite “God in a container” has already been done… Jesus

Hi Wm,

Do you believe there is a boundary or barrier that separates what IS the being of God from what IS NOT the being of God?

Do you believe Paul when he says there are both fleshly bodies and spiritual bodies?

peace and love,
mike

[JustAskin]

Mike,

Have you read Hebrews 10:5?

Jesus declares the purpose for his coming into the world.

Yes, Mike, the FIRST TIME that Jesus came into the world.

Then he died and was raised up again.

The SECOND Time he came into the world….and Hebrews 1:6 says…?

Mike, the first time by the Holy Spirit.
Mike, the second time by the Holy Spirit, too.

And Jesus was a Man when God raised him and made him high priest, therefore he says, 'You are my Son, Today I have become your father'

Mike, if God 'became' his father, grammatically, woukd you say that Jesus already existed? Yes, or you should say 'yes'.

Paul 'became' the spiritual father of Onesimus (Philemon 1), Onesimus already existed…otherwise it would have said, 'Paul became THE Father OF Onesimus'
“God became the Father of a son”
“God became the Father to a son” (Incorrect grammar subject unless there 'Son' is being contrasted to 'Daughter')
“God became THE Father to a Son” (Correct structure, ''God/Spirit:Creation'; Man/Flesh:Procreation')
“God became THE Father OF A Son” ('Son' already exists,…this is Adoption, and Scriptures says 'we' will be subject to the adoption as Sons of God, man in Spirit, brothers with Christ, heirs to God…like Christ, begotten to God)

Mike, nothing in Hebrews 1: pertains to preExistent Jesus. All the quotes are concerning his being raised from the dead, firstborn [from the dead] over the creation of God so in all things he is preEminent…being preEminent doesn't necessarily mean being originally first..but means 'first/leading'…when it matters.
David became preEminent from among his brothers…but was he always Superior…certainly not..because, if nothing else, he was born last, also, Samuel was intent on anointing the firstborn (by birth) son of Jesse.

[JustAskin]

Mike's delusion is gaining pace.

Does anyone think we are pushing him too hard?

Shimmer, our honourable forum mediator, asked…begged me to go easy with him.

Shimmer, you are right again.

[shimmer]

JA, I did ? I dont recall begging you to go easy ?  (Mike iv got that confused look again, im not laughing at him !)

I want to start up a couple of seperate threads, theres too many different things here.

Jesus as an Angel
Jesus begotten when ? (Hang on, thats allready been done)
etc…later I might.

[JustAskin]

Terra,

I mean that Jesus was an Angel. In the form of an Angel.

There is only one form mentioned as being in heaven…Spirit, but ther are only two natures mentioned, one is God and the other Angel.

[JustAskin]

Irene,

What does 'Firstborn of every creature' mean?

Firstborn 'of every creature'?

Please name me three of these creatures…that Jesus is the firstborn of.

(Firstborn OVER every creature?
Firstborn:…the head of…preEminent over…senior of …the first in rank over…by birth over)

[JustAskin]

Hi Shimmer,

Sorry…i thought i saw a post from you asking me to go easy on him…maybe it was a dream…either way it is good advice…how about saying it to me just for the record…?

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2010,09:31)

You have borrowed a trinitarian “word game” here JA.  God is a person.  God cannot beget Himself.  But God is also a spirit being, and He can and did beget a Son who is a spirit being.  You play a game that causes some to stumble.  But others of us clearly see through it.  God Almighty did not beget God Almighty.  God beget the SON of God.   mike

Hi Mike,

What 'person' is God?
The HolySpirit is not 'a person'.

The Bible says God is Spirit! (John 4:24)
John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that
worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.

The Bible says God is Holy! (Leviticus 11:45)
Lev.11:45 For I the LORD that bringeth you up
out of the land of Egypt, to be your God:
ye shall therefore be holy, for I Holy.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[shimmer]

JA, I do vaguely recall saying something like that .

Jesus as an Angel, if anyone will disagree with the idea, they also disagree with so many million Seventh day adventists, also so many million JWs,

Mormans believe Jesus and Satan were brothers or something, not Angels but Gods..and they believe God has a body like us exactly, height and all, like The Wizard of Oz… If I remember correct.

They also believe marriage is for ever, even into the next life, where people continue to pro-create, or something .

[shimmer]

So, procreation, God having a body, thats sounding more mormanish

I think Adventists and JWs have alot more closeness to mainstream christianity than mormans do. Mormans use a different book than just scripture. JWs and Adventists stick with scripture.

[JustAskin]

Mike,

The 'boundaries' you struggle to define concerning Angels and God, are 'limits of power and authority'.

God has no limits of power and authority because He IS ALL power and authority. Therefore He is in everything … And everything is in him.

Angels have limited power and authority, are 'bounded' by that limited P&A.

Bodies…Spirits do not have bodies…what's with you?

When Angels come to earth…they materialise physical containers in the shape of human beings.

Or they can appear in any other form…coalesed air, wind, water, anything… Balaam's donkey…and you think the donkey spoke in a human voice to Balaam? Hmm…'the only strange thing about the dog telling jokes down the local pub was that he drank lager and not beer…that was very odd and the newspapers had a field day with it the next morning'

Hmm…how do you fit the boundered form of a spirit into the body of a man. Is that why some people are fatter than others, cos their spirit is bulging out their bodies? I hear that all Americans are fat…or is that 'most', or even, 'some'?

[kerwin]

Shimmer,

I was brought up in Adventism and was taught that Ellen G. Whites writings were slightly lower than scripture.

The mainstream Adventist are Trinitarians and believe the preexistant Jesus was God in the form of an angel.

[shimmer]

Thats right Kerwin. A Trinity with Jesus as an Angel, interesting how you were brought up an Adventist.

From what I have seen in scripture, from what I have seen in the debates here, KJ spoke wisely in how he saw scripture concerning 'begotten' ….scripture says Jesus was begotten when he was risen from the dead, also when he was concieved, so Marty also speaks wisely with this. (sorry Kerwin, I cant remember if you agreed with Marty ?) this is clear, stick to whats clear, IMO, that way scripture isnt made to say what people want it to say.

Jesus was given a postion higher than earlier, otherwise what was the point in being an OVERCOMER ? Which is what he was. The ONLY sinless one who was worthy to open the scroll.

Worthy only because He overcame.

If Jesus existed as a Spirit being before being man, which scripture does say…then all I can think of is Jesus must have been an Angel. A created being. Because God says “Before me no other God was formed, nor will there be after”

[terraricca]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 14 2010,20:47)

Thats right Kerwin. A Trinity with Jesus as an Angel, interesting how you were brought up an Adventist. From what I have seen in scripture, from what I have seen in the debates here, KJ spoke wisely in how he saw scripture concerning 'begotten' ….scripture says Jesus was begotten when he was risen from the dead, also when he was concieved, so Marty also speaks wisely with this. (sorry Kerwin, I cant remember if you agreed with Marty ?) this is clear, stick to whats clear, IMO, that way scripture isnt made to say what people want it to say. Jesus was given a postion higher than earlier, otherwise what was the point in being an OVERCOMER ? Which is what he was. The ONLY sinless one who was worthy to open the scroll. Worthy only because He overcame. If Jesus existed as a Spirit being before being man, which scripture does say…then all I can think of is Jesus must have been an Angel. A created being. Because God says “Before me no other God was formed, nor will there be after”

shimmer

Christ is not a angel,if you go in the topic “preexisting data”
you will find over 40 scriptures related to the preexisting of Christ,

and he was not there before God because he was created by God,
but all things were created trough him,so he is godly but that s all i can say ,because that s what is in scriptures ,are angels godly no were it say this.the are spirit beings, yes.

pierre

[kerwin]

Pierre,

If I remember correctly the Seven Day Adventist teach that the Arch Angel Michael and Jesus are the same. Michael being King of the Angels.

I hold that it is a false teaching.

[shimmer]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2010,16:03)

shimmer Christ is not a angel,if you go in the topic “preexisting data” you will find over 40 scriptures related to the preexisting of Christ, and he was not there before God because he was created by God, but all things were created trough him,so he is godly but that s all i can say ,because that s what is in scriptures ,are angels godly no were it say this.the are spirit beings, yes. pierre

Terrarica, you say …

Quote

Christ is not a angel,if you go in the topic “preexisting data” you will find over 40 scriptures related to the preexisting of Christ,

But still, saying Jesus was an Angel, a created being of God, isnt saying He never pre-existed is it ?

Just say Jesus was an Angel, Angels do appear, throughout the old testement, its always the Angel of the Lord…speaking as the Lord….so, if Jesus was an Angel, He then became Jesus, concieved in the womb of MAry, through the Holy Spirit, born as Son of God and son of Man.

JA and others such as Adventists arent saying Jesus never pre-existed, they are only saying He pre-existed as an Angel.

Most say Jesus was Michael the Archangel. Id disagree. I believe if Jesus was an Angel, it was a hidden Angel, yet..the Angel who appeared to others in the Old Testement, the Angel of the Lord. God's word, messenger, chosen for these reasons to be the saviour of mankind, born as a man, not known to the world, as scripture says, they knew him not. How many times He wanted to gather them under his wing. But they would not. See, wing…angel,

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