Was jesus always superior

Blocked

Hi Shimmer,

Good post and thank you. Unlike JA, you actually attempted to answer my question. And the info you posted actually DID answer my question. I can live with calling the creatures in Revelation Seraphims based on your scriptural information. But I think it is a big leap to include Jesus within the group of beings that were created through him.

Which brings us to question I've been asking. Your info says the “thrones” that were created through Jesus are, “a class of celestial beings mentioned by Paul of Tarsus in Colossians 1:16”

So they are NOT “inanimate objects”, but heavenly beings who were created through Jesus. About Dominions, your source says, “The Dominions hold the task of regulating the duties of lower angels. It is only with extreme rarity that the angelic lords make themselves physically known to humans. They are also the angels who preside over nations.”

So again, these are not “inanimate objects”, but a higher class of angels who were created through Jesus.

About “Powers and Authorities”, your source says, “Paul used the term powers in Colossians 1:16 and Ephesians 1:21 but he may have used it to refer to the powers of nations, societies or individuals, instead of referring to angels.”

Hmmmmmm………..but are any of the powers of “nations, societies or individuals” INVISIBLE except for angels? So while your source says it MIGHT not refer to angels, the text specifically mentions both visible AND invisible. So what does your source say about the INVISIBLE “Powers and Authorities”? “These celestial beings appear to collaborate, in power and authority (as implied in their etymology source), with the Principalities (Rulers).”

And speaking of “Principalities”, what does your source say? “These celestial beings appear to collaborate, in power and authority (as implied in their etymology source), with the Powers (Authorities).”

And once again, your source lists their “disclaimer” about it not necessarily refering to angels. So once again, I will remind you and JA and your source what Col 1:16 actually says.

For through him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created through him, and for him:

Let me rearrange the words to include only what we are discussing:

All invisible things that are in heaven, whether they be thrones, dominions, principalities, or powers were created through him. And then for emphasis, it repeats this part, just so we have no doubt: All things were created through him and for him.

So Shimmer, what do you think? In order to keep his imagined doctrine alive, JA asserts that the “all things” doesn't really mean “ALL” in this case. He sticks to this claim even though Paul spelled it out pretty clearly and left nothing to the imagination in Col 1:16. He sticks to it in light of 1 Cor 8:6, which says:

6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Now if the first “all” in this scripture means “ALL”, like we know it does, for “ALL” things came from God, then the second mention of “all” must also mean “ALL”, for the same “all” is spoken of both times.

And don't forget that John says “NOT ONE THING came into existence without him”. (John 1:3)

So what do you say Shimmer? Do you have any scriptural reason whatsoever to think the angels were not created through God's Son as the scriptures clearly tell us?

peace and love,
mike

November 10, 2010 at 2:06 am#223866

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,07:04)

I agree Jesus was Gods 'only begotten son' born into the world through the Holy Spirit, without an earthly Father.

Hi Shimmer,

I'm confused. You seem to be alternating between claiming that Jesus became God's only begotten Son when he was born as flesh and when he was raised from the dead.

Which do you believe?

peace and love,
mike

November 10, 2010 at 2:12 am#223868

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 10 2010,11:55)

IF CHRIST IS THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION AND THAT ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED TROUGH HIM ,WOULD HE BE THE SAME AS THE CREATION THAT COMES AFTER HIM ?/
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT WE THINK BUT HE STILL THE FIRST THAT GOD CREATED AND THIS IS THE NAIL THAT STICKS OUT,HE MUST BE MADE HIGHER THAN WHAT COMES AFTER HIM ,HE IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD

Hi Pierre,

I feel the same way. Shimmer and JA claim that we know of only God and angels in heaven, but they leave out the one who is after God but also before the angels.

To me, Jesus is in a category all by himself. And to INSIST that he must be an angel because we know nothing different is a pretty bold assumption if you ask me.

JA acknowledges the scripture that says Jesus is better than the angels now. So, do we still only know about God and angels in heaven? Can Jesus be BETTER THAN the angels while still being an angel?

I've read all your posts here Pierre. Good scriptural stuff……..as usual.

peace and love,
mike

November 10, 2010 at 2:48 am#223881

Blocked

Hi JA,

Aren't you a little embarassed? I would be. You biggest fan is over here discussing the issues and answering direct questions directly……..with intelligence and style and grace. And what are YOU doing? Insulting people, making unsubstantiated claims, and whining. Wait a minute……….that's what you ALWAYS DO! Carry on then.

JA:

Quote

So, in all Scriptures, there is not one single scriptural statement showing what Jesus was that Mike can show us.

Ah, but there are few that show what he WASN'T. While you haven't yet realized that Jesus was something better than the angels from the moment they were created through him, you do agree that he is NOW “as much better than the angels as the name he has inherited is better than theirs”, right?

It doesn't say “better than the OTHER angels”, does it JA? So, what exactly is someone who is better than the angels, but lessor than his God? Not God………..and NOT an angel, but of a classification somewhere in between.

Anyway, are you ever going to answer this with a simple yes or no?

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Do you think these “principalities and powers and rulers” mentioned in Eph 6:12 are inanimate objects?

Will you answer and impress us all…………….or just keep spouting insults?

mike

November 10, 2010 at 2:50 am#223882

Blocked

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 09 2010,20:05)

And…your response to Shimmer….everything from the book of John. What did I ask you to do: Read Jihn again and note that he is speaking 'past', after Jesus is risen, thus he alludes to the risen Christ, as the 'Begotten Son', as of, the 'Man who is in Heaven'…

Hi JA,

Sit back and pay attention to Shimmer and my SCRIPTURAL discussion………….you might learn something as we delve into this begotten thing a little deeper.

But for starters, do you believe Jesus was the Light that came into the world before he was raised?

mike

November 10, 2010 at 3:02 am#223885

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,08:55)

Sorry JA and Mike, this was supposed to be a debate between you both, it was interesting, is why iv said so much.

No need to apologize Shimmer. You are actually answering and asking good questions. That's how a debate is supposed to go. And I've got to be honest with you, aside from you and Kathi, everyone I disagree with on this site eventually either refuses to answer the questions, or starts with the “the scripture says Black, but it really means Purple” crap.

It's nice to discuss with someone who's not afraid to answer questions. We might not end up agreeing, but at least we're both learning from each other in the process of the discussion.

I'm only after truth, and when your “opponent” simply refuses to answer to a scripture or nonsensically rearranges it to say what best fits into their doctrine, it becomes an exercise in futility instead of a learning process.

peace and love,
mike

November 10, 2010 at 8:14 am#223945

Participant

Mikeboll, you are as absurd as you are desparate. In fact, the two thing go hand in hand…as you get more absurd, you get more desparate (Thomas, now 'Desparate Man', get it ..get it…'desperate Dan'…oh, did you have the comic book, maybe not where you live, dunno..but you see where i'm going, eh?).

How many times do you require an answer to 'principalities'? Until someone says what you WANT it to say?

Where did you dredge up this 'order of Angels' from? Who devised it? Is it Scriptural…

Basically, what you are saying then is that Scriptures went to all the trouble of telling us that Jesus created the 'Order of the Angelic hosts of Heaven', and without him not one 'Order of Angelic Host of Heaven' was created…

Seems a strange thing to go to all the trouble of mentioning and then emphasising?

Of what value is it that we should know that Jesus created the 'Angels' in such an emphatic manner, YET, there is no mention of how the creator of this great creation was, himself, created…or should we be saying 'Jesus was not a created being', was not a 'Messenger of God', ooop…what's another word for '[Heavenly] Messenger'?

Also, What is Jesus Now?

Is Jesus not now in a 'HIGHER' than that which he left when he emptied himself?
So, Mike, on your Timeline (You have done your Timeline, yes? Add a new dimension of 'Elevation' to show position of authority…add in 'the order of the Angels …and Jesus, relative to God, with negative authority for Satanic forces, for even though they are bad, they are still have authority to inflict their powers on mankind and the world).

Mike, what position did you place Jesus in before he came as Man?
What position did you place him in AS Man?
What position did you place him in as Risen 'Man in Spirit'?

Was the latter higher than the former?

And check this…Jesus was MAN when God said, 'you are my Son…', Jesus Is Still Man, 'the Man who s in Heaven'.

And this, Mike, is the 'Higher' position that Jesus now occupies, higher than the Angels…

Mike, why is the higher position only related 'relative' to the Angels?
Why is Jesus 'So Much Better' than the Angels?
Why isn't Jesus' new position not compared to his original position that he left…wouldn't that have given us a better perspective of his new glory?

Where do you begin decide where to put Jesus on the positional elevation on the Timeline?

Ha! You placed him next to God, as the 'the only begotten son of God'…
So, Mike, where do you place him now that he is in 'Higher Position'?

Hmmm…can't do it…because there IS no position higher than 'the Begotten Son of God'.

In fact, since, 'All things are made by Him and For him', therefore the 'Inheritor of ALL things', Jesus, in fact by you then, has actually GAINED NOTHING!!

Gained nothing, for all that was his is all that is still his now…and Mike, please do not belittle the Sacrifice…it is no small thing for a Spirit, even in the body of fleshly man, to be put to death (Albeit that it is the flesh that dies and the Spirit is then 'suspended' in Sheol)…look how AGONY Christ Jesus went through, so much that he sweated blood, so much that he even begged his Father, 'If this cup could be taken away from me…', Mike, Jesus went through all that, then gave up his spirit into suspension, 'Into thy hands, father, i commend my spirit', and went down into Sheol, all the time …. Believing, having faith, that his father would raise him up again…(ooh err…but what if he can't…what if 'the Satan' was right…i'm doomed…a sure Sacrifice this is!)
And, Mike, Jesus triumphed…he was raised again, just as (Fractally), Isaac was 'figuratively Sacrificed and raised up again' to Abraham.

What did Jesus gain from the noble mighty Heroic (Mighty God) deed? For you, nothing more than what he had before, yet Scriptures says, God called him his 'Son', 'You are my Son, today [as you are Reborn in the Spirit], I have become your Father'

And, 'to which if the Angels did he ever say that?' None, yes, none, because Jesus was not Angel when God spoke those words to him, but MAN, man in the Spirit…and God crowned him with glory and made him High Priest in His Temple.

And, placed all the Angels, his heavenly brethren, below him and instructed them to show obeisence to him.

Mike, for what purpose did Jesus become man?

As well as to be the pure sacrifice for the atonement of the sin of all mankind, it was also to fulfill that plan which God put in place for Mankind, that which Adam would have attained had he not sinned.
The very same that Jesus achieved, and was taken up in spirit to dwell with his God as both Spirit and (fleshl materialisable) man on earth, in the Paradise earth, for God's plans will be fulfilled, not one word from his mouth will go out without coming back having achieved, else he who spoke that word could not be God.

November 10, 2010 at 8:39 am#223949

Participant

Shimmer,

This is not a debate between Mike and JA. It is open discussion.

Mike would not dare to take me on in a debate unless he really wants to be spanked.

He said, concerning this thread, that he would show me …something.. that he had of great value…I saw it and laughed…hey did you hear the joke about the man in the pub with his donkey, …shhhhh….i'll tell it to you in a pm if you say 'yes'!

November 10, 2010 at 8:51 am#223951

terraricca

Participant

i would like to ask you a question here it is;;1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

what is Christ now,beside being the priest forever.???

Pierre

November 10, 2010 at 8:53 am#223952

Participant

Really JA ? aha.. no, I havent heard it.

November 10, 2010 at 9:09 am#223956

Participant

So, Shimmer, was that 'No' you don't want to hear it, or have you not yet decided to answer?

To all,
P.s. How many would presume that Shimmer was saying, 'yes', in her post above? And why would you have been wrong?…implied 'yes' but not actual 'yes'.

November 10, 2010 at 9:14 am#223958

Participant

Yes, ok.

November 10, 2010 at 9:27 am#223961

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2010,14:06)

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,07:04)

I agree Jesus was Gods 'only begotten son' born into the world through the Holy Spirit, without an earthly Father.

Hi Shimmer,

I'm confused. You seem to be alternating between claiming that Jesus became God's only begotten Son when he was born as flesh and when he was raised from the dead.

Which do you believe?

peace and love,
mike

No, Mike, simply going by scripture, scripture say's of the second Psalm, 'this day' was the day when Jesus was risen from the dead. So JustAskin and KangarooJ were scriptually correct.

As for Gods firstborn into the world, this would be Jesus, born not of earthly man but concieved through Gods Holy Spirit, therefore also called Gods only begotten son,

I think ?

November 10, 2010 at 9:31 am#223963

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2010,15:02)

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,08:55)

Sorry JA and Mike, this was supposed to be a debate between you both, it was interesting, is why iv said so much.

It's nice to discuss with someone who's not afraid to answer questions. We might not end up agreeing, but at least we're both learning from each other in the process of the discussion.

peace and love,
mike

Ok.

November 10, 2010 at 9:52 am#223966

Participant

Terra, brother, i think you are battin off a different wicket.
That which you ask has nothing to do with anything being discussed. This also goes for your previous post, which is why i didn't respond to it.

Terra, you getting many things out of context in what you are asking me, and what you believe that i'm saying.

In diagram…
God (Form: Spirit, Nature: Complete Power, Energy, Intelligence)
'Jesus' (Form: Spirit, Nature: a Powerful Messenger of God)
Angels (Form: Spirit, Nature: Powerful Messengers of God)

Jesus, on Earth, Form: Flesh and Bood, nature: Sinless Human being (Earthly Son of God), limited self power, vessel for further powers by faith in God, indwelling of the Holy Spirit) subject to sin and death through sin.

Jesus, 'risen', Form: Spirit/Man. Nature: powerful 'Man in spirit form' completely filled with the Holy Spirit, complete, is perfect in full power and authority by his God. A king, a ruler over his father's kingdom.

Terra, what we primarily discussing is 'was Jesus Always Superior'…
Superior to whom?
The Angels…
In asking this we also need to know, 'was Jesus also an Angel'

No Scriptures says 'yeah' or 'ney' openly.
But we can allude to certain indicators…
One, is the very fact that Jesus is being compared to 'Angels'.

If you are saying that Jesus is a direct creation of God…i mean, the ONLY DIRECT creation of God, then he is 'God from God', this is 'Procreation'.
Then, if Jesus then created the Angels, even through Jesus were they created…why, why oh why would you, anyone, ever, ever imagine comparing Jesus to some group of lesser entities who were created by or through him….

Please, think about this seriously. Why compare the creator with that which the creator created.

Does anyone (with sense) say, is Jesus equal to God, is Jesus greaterthan God, is the created greater than the creator?

So why does someone ask, 'Are Angels equal to Jesus', 'is Jesus greater than the Angels'…if they are saying that Jesus created the Angels.

But…if Jesus was 'one of them'…now, now, you can compare like with like and say that one was better than the others…and God, their creator, 'loved him more than the rest..because he was more righteous than the rest'.

Man, check your understanding…compare apples with apples… And lemons with lemons, the real truth with the real lie. That is the proper perspective view.

Why does Scriptures say, 'to which of the Angels…'…why bother. It says nothing, unless it is comparing Jesus as Man in Spirit to that which he was…one of them.
In other words, ''Not even to 'him', while an Angel, did HE say, 'You are my Son…' for unto none of them as Angels, did HE ever say that, yet, to this one, Jesus Christ, the overcomer, the perfected man, second Adam, to him who went to his death in the flesh fir the sake of all mankind, to him who was raised, first over creation, the inheritor, for by his deeds he has become so by the acquiring of that name above all names, yes, to him and him alone did God say, 'You are my Son. Today, i have become your father and made you the High Priest in my Kingdom'''

November 10, 2010 at 10:10 am#223969

Participant

Shimmer,
See, Mike is paying you complements and 'warming' to the truth of what is being said to him, even though it is the same thing we been saying to him for weeks, months, ages…

Little by little we egg him forwards but so damaged is he that only by the soft hand will he yield to indescribable full truth, prefering otherwise, the undesirable half fallacy.

Shimmer, he is walking over, please keep encouraging him. Even as he wriggles this way, he may yet lose his long tail, or is it 'tall tale', or both?
He could even yet 'evolve' into a beacon, his spark becoming a light, if he gives up his contrarie wind (Check Homer's Odysseus, and 'island of the winds')

November 10, 2010 at 10:19 am#223970