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Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,01:20) Wakeup, 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 is speaking of of a man who is guilty of sexual immortality. It also speaks speaks of giving his body to Satan at the time the letter was written so that the spirit can be saved on that day. That would be “can” as in might.
Kerwin.God is more concerned of the spirit.
Some are taken young,to save them from the evil to come.wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2014,20:05) Mike, Quote
That person's FLESH BODY is not what is governed.I do not remember that being written in Scripture…………..
Use discernment, Kerwin.Paraphrase: “The spirit is the important thing, since the flesh counts for nothing.”
Which part can be “spiritual” in the sense of following God? The flesh? Or the spirit/soul?
Or look at it this way…… Let's say you don't feel like going up to the Feast of Tabernacles to worship Jehovah. You would rather just hang out at home for that week, drinking wine.
Can your FLESH BODY be “spiritual” enough to decide on it's own to go to the festival – without your consent? Can that FLESH BODY itself seriously be “led by Spirit” – and therefore be “spiritual”?
God moves in our spirits and souls, Kerwin………. not our bodies. Our bodies are just vessels that house the “spiritual” aspects of humanity. A body itself can neither be “spiritual”, nor “unspiritual”…….. in the sense of “being led by Spirit”.
Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2014,20:11) Another way to say it is that if adam first ate of the tree of life and then ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would still die that very day as God made no exception.
I am still undecided on this one, Kerwin.It is true that Paul says the wages of sin are death, and that death entered the world through the sin of one man.
Those are scriptures, and can therefore not be taken lightly.
On the other hand, flesh creatures all procreate offspring – unlike the immortal angels. And long before Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, God had already designed the living creatures of earth to multiply and fill the earth……… mankind included. (Gen 1:22, 28)
This makes me think, Kerwin. God apparently creates each and every angel individually – for they don't marry or procreate. On the other hand, this doesn't seem to have ever been the plan for mankind – since he and the other creatures of the earth were destined to procreate offspring from the very beginning.
And that fact makes these words from Enoch resonate with me:
Book of Enoch Chapter 15
1 Then addressing me, He spoke and said, Hear, neither be afraid, O righteous Enoch, you scribe of righteousness: approach hither, and hear my voice. Go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent you to pray for them, You ought to pray for men, and not men for you.
2 Wherefore have you forsaken the lofty and holy heaven, which endures for ever, and have lain with women; have defile yourselves with the daughters of men; have taken to yourselves wives; have acted like the sons of the earth, and have begotten an impious offspring?
3 You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do.
4 These however die and perish.
5 Therefore have I given to them wives, that they might cohabit with them; that sons might be born of them; and that this might be transacted upon earth.
6 But you from the beginning were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever.
7 Therefore I made not wives for you, because, being spiritual, your dwelling is in heaven.
I believe those words, Kerwin. Those words make perfect sense to me. They resonate within me. I FEEL that those words are telling it like it was.
So like I said, this one has me stumped…… and I have yet to fully make up my mind. I am definitely leaning toward the understanding laid out in Enoch for now.
I'm going to do a little more studying of Romans 5:12, and the context surrounding it. For example, it is clear what Paul said in verse 12 – that death entered through sin – but what then does he mean in verse 13? He says that while there was indeed sin in the world before the law, there was no accounting of the sin that occurred when there was no law. If those earlier sins were not accounted for, since there wasn't yet a law, how then does he say the things he said in verse 12?
So I need to do a little more research into that passage, and the cross references.
(Before I go, I want you to read verse 3 of that Enoch passage I quoted once more. Notice the third word of the verse, and notice how that word is used to CONTRAST the “spiritual” sons of God from the apparently NON-spiritual earthly sons of God. Notice how the “spiritual” existence of the angels is blatantly CONTRASTED against the “carnal flesh and blood” existence of the beings those angels “defiled” and “polluted” themselves with.
After you've done that, take a hard look at the word “spiritual” in verses 6 and 7 as well. Notice that in verse 6, the word “spiritual” is equated with “eternal life” – and in verse 7, the word “spiritual” is equated with “dwelling in heaven”.
Do you have any comments on that?)
Quote (Wakeup @ April 28 2014,20:41) Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,01:20) Wakeup, 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 is speaking of of a man who is guilty of sexual immortality. It also speaks speaks of giving his body to Satan at the time the letter was written so that the spirit can be saved on that day. That would be “can” as in might.
Kerwin.God is more concerned of the spirit.
Some are taken young,to save them from the evil to come.wakeup.
Wakeup,Perhaps, but that is not the case in 1 Corinthians 5:4-5. I am convinced he is the same that Paul spoke of his repentance in 2 Corinthians.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2014,06:27) Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2014,20:05) Mike, Quote
That person's FLESH BODY is not what is governed.I do not remember that being written in Scripture…………..
Use discernment, Kerwin.Paraphrase: “The spirit is the important thing, since the flesh counts for nothing.”
Which part can be “spiritual” in the sense of following God? The flesh? Or the spirit/soul?
Or look at it this way…… Let's say you don't feel like going up to the Feast of Tabernacles to worship Jehovah. You would rather just hang out at home for that week, drinking wine.
Can your FLESH BODY be “spiritual” enough to decide on it's own to go to the festival – without your consent? Can that FLESH BODY itself seriously be “led by Spirit” – and therefore be “spiritual”?
God moves in our spirits and souls, Kerwin………. not our bodies. Our bodies are just vessels that house the “spiritual” aspects of humanity. A body itself can neither be “spiritual”, nor “unspiritual”…….. in the sense of “being led by Spirit”.
Mike,So you believe certain passages hint that the spirit cannot govern the body?
“The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Which of the two is being led by Spirit? The flesh, which counts for nothing? Or the soul/spirit of the man?
Mike,
In that case neither as the new covenant was not in effect. Jesus was speaking of the disciples human spirit that was willing to stake awake while the demands of there physical flesh were stronger. Those strong demands is what made the flesh weak.
The Spirit of God is stronger than even the strongest demands of the flesh. When it is in command weak flesh becomes strong.
Hi Nick:
Kerwin asked a question. I happen to agree with him because the commandment given to Adam by God was in the day that he ate from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he would surely die, and that would mean that prior to his eating from this tree he had not died.
The judgment after he ate was a spiritual death, or separation from communion with God, followed by a physical death.
And also, the tree of life was in the garden of Eden, and they could have eaten from this tree and continued to live forever.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi 94,
Adam obeyed and followed satan.
His sin was rebellion and idolatry.He cut himself off from God's friendship.
We too are born isolated from God.Ever since satan has regarded men as his and supplied him with lusts that can conceive as sin which can rule us from within. Jas 1 14-15
As promised by God Adam died that day-before 1000 years were passed-ps 90God was always in control and Adam never got to eat of the tree of life.
Perhaps it was not pretty and tasty fruit?
1.Genesis 2:9
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.But the tree of life has other meanings too
.Proverbs 3
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
8.Proverbs 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.9.Proverbs 13:12
Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.10.Proverbs 15:4
A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.Note also that in Rev the tree bears fruit every month
Why would that be?12.Revelation 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,13:21) Mike, In that case neither as the new covenant was not in effect. Jesus was speaking of the disciples human spirit that was willing to stake awake while the demands of there physical flesh were stronger.
My point is that the spirit was the willing part, Kerwin. If the flesh could be led by Spirit, then Jesus would have said the flesh was also willing.Do you have any comments about the post in which I quoted from Enoch?
Mike,
I agree that the Spirit of God teaches the spirit of man righteousness and that it also gives a human the power over his body in order to use it to do righteousness.
I also believe it empowers the flesh to overcome those limitations that are of this age, such as death and decay.
I believe a time will come when all flesh will worship God and they will go and see the corpses of those who refused to repent and defied God.
The flesh counts for nothing, Kerwin. It is neither “spiritual” nor “unspiritual”.
When you say, “all FLESH will worship God”, you are really saying that the SENTIENT part of flesh beings will worship God.
The flesh itself counts for nothing, and can therefore not worship God. It is what is INSIDE the flesh that decides to either worship God, or not worship Him.
P.S. I really want your thoughts on that post in which I quoted from Enoch.
Mike,
My thought on the passage is that I and you think too much like Greeks to always comprehend Jewish thought. It is very seldom what we view as straightforward as they seem to have an obsession with symbols and the like. This one seems fairly straightforward though there is the normal threat of miscommunications.
It gives another reason than Scripture does for man creating woman. Scripture teaches us that God gave Adam a wife because it was not good for man to be alone.
I agree that “were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever” but what I hear from the word “spiritual” and what you hear are two different things.
I also believe that the only angels that fell, were those that fell with Satan and that they will die in Gehenna.
I find it interesting that it speaks of “carnal blood” as if there where more than one type of blood. Then they seem to call that carnal blood the blood of men and afterwards use flesh and blood for these men who blood is carnal. These last things are harder to understand for those who think like the Greeks.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2014,22:09) The flesh counts for nothing, Kerwin. It is neither “spiritual” nor “unspiritual”. When you say, “all FLESH will worship God”, you are really saying that the SENTIENT part of flesh beings will worship God.
The flesh itself counts for nothing, and can therefore not worship God. It is what is INSIDE the flesh that decides to either worship God, or not worship Him.
P.S. I really want your thoughts on that post in which I quoted from Enoch.
MikeQuote The flesh counts for nothing, Kerwin. It is neither “spiritual” nor “unspiritual”. That your math that I don't agree is correct equation. Instead I say there is a Spiritual flesh that man was created with in the beginning and that there is a natural flesh that man's body changed to after he sinned.
Quote When you say, “all FLESH will worship God”, you are really saying that the SENTIENT part of flesh beings will worship God. The flesh itself counts for nothing, and can therefore not worship God. It is what is INSIDE the flesh that decides to either worship God, or not worship Him.
You contradict yourself in this one because you know the brain is flesh and man thinks with it. It is the brain which worships God mentally. The body worships him physically, the soul worships him in the soulish manner, the spirit worships him spiritually. In this way a human being shows his love for God with his body, soul, and spirit.
The spirit is the driver as far as righteousness and wickedness is concerned.
Quote (kerwin @ May 03 2014,10:57) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) The flesh counts for nothing, Kerwin. It is neither “spiritual” nor “unspiritual”.
I say there is a Spiritual flesh that man was created with in the beginning and that there is a natural flesh that man's body changed to after he sinned.
Then what you say is, at best, an ADDITION to scripture, and at worst, a direct CONTRADICTION to scripture – which consistently teaches “flesh” as an ANTONYYM of “spirit”.Either way, you didn't learn your “theory of spiritual flesh” from the scriptures.
Quote (kerwin @ May 03 2014,10:57) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) When you say, “all FLESH will worship God”, you are really saying that the SENTIENT part of flesh beings will worship God. The flesh itself counts for nothing, and can therefore not worship God. It is what is INSIDE the flesh that decides to either worship God, or not worship Him.
You contradict yourself in this one because you know the brain is flesh and man thinks with it.
Ahh…….. but if you want to get technical, the thoughts of a human being are really electric impulses that travel through our brain.Are those electric impulses “flesh”, Kerwin?
Also, the spirit in man is not flesh, and we must worship in SPIRIT – not flesh. Like I and Jesus keep saying, “The flesh counts for NOTHING”, Kerwin.
Quote (kerwin @ May 03 2014,10:45) I agree that “were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever” but what I hear from the word “spiritual” and what you hear are two different things.
Yep. What me AND Enoch hear from “spiritual” is that the spiritual are immortal, don't bear children, and dwell in the SPIRITUAL realm of heaven…….. not in the FLESHLY realm of earth.YOU disagree with Enoch, Kerwin. But which one of you was quoted and referenced in scripture?
Kerwin, consider that God had already planned for animals and mankind to procreate more of themselves long BEFORE Adam and Eve ever sinned.
1. Angels DON'T procreate = but DO live forever.
2. Mankind DOES procreate =
3. The resurrected man WON'T procreate = but WILL live forever.
Enoch makes perfect sense, Kerwin.
A. Flesh beings were ALWAYS intended to procreate BECAUSE they are mortal beings.
B. The SPIRITUAL and IMMORTAL heavenly beings polluted themselves by having intercourse with the lowly FLESH and MORTAL human beings.
C. God's spirit sons were made as SPIRITUAL BEINGS, God's earthly sons are FLESH (not “spiritual”) beings.
D. Therefore, in order to enter heaven, we must be born again from above, by SPIRIT – since flesh can only give birth to flesh.
I'm quite sure you will keep throwing “ifs” and “buts” at this sensible understanding Enoch and I share…….. but your “rebuttals” have been growing weaker day by day.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2014,07:38) Hi 94,
Adam obeyed and followed satan.
His sin was rebellion and idolatry.He cut himself off from God's friendship.
We too are born isolated from God.Ever since satan has regarded men as his and supplied him with lusts that can conceive as sin which can rule us from within. Jas 1 14-15
As promised by God Adam died that day-before 1000 years were passed-ps 90God was always in control and Adam never got to eat of the tree of life.
Perhaps it was not pretty and tasty fruit?
1.Genesis 2:9
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.But the tree of life has other meanings too
.Proverbs 3
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
8.Proverbs 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.9.Proverbs 13:12
Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.10.Proverbs 15:4
A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.Note also that in Rev the tree bears fruit every month
Why would that be?12.Revelation 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Hi Nick:Jesus stated:
Quote John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Quote John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.Quote Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi KW,
Being freed from the destructive sin in the flesh gives health to the body
So does wisdomProv 3
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,
and the man that getteth understanding.14
For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver,
and the gain thereof than fine gold.15
She is more precious than rubies:
and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.16
Length of days is in her right hand;
and in her left hand riches and honour.17
Her ways are ways of pleasantness,
and all her paths are peace.18
She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her:
and happy is every one that retaineth herMike,
The book of 1 Enoch has been bastardized and it has stuff thrown in there that has not been quoted by Scripture. There was an unaltered version at one time but I do not know if we have access to it today.
I already pointed out it gives another reason that Scripture does for God creating woman. It can either believe it or Scripture.
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