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Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,00:25) God declared he would not notice Cain.
Is that really the way it went down, Kerwin?Here is the curse God actually laid down on Cain:
Genesis 4
11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.And here's what Cain IMAGINED that curse meant:
Genesis 4:14
Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.And how did God respond?
Genesis 4:15
But Jehovah said to him, “Not so.”So the only thing Cain actually got right was that he would be a restless wanderer on the earth.
God never said, “YOU ARE BANISHED FROM MY PRESENCE, AND I DISOWN YOU AS A SON OF GOD.”
David said there was NO PLACE to which he could flee to escape God's presence. So how could Cain escape it by moving a few miles down the road?
Kerwin, you want a particular thing to be the case, and you are trying your best to imagine that the scriptures actually teach this thing.
Isn't that also what the Trinitarians do so well?
Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,00:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 18 2014,08:56)
…….the “daughters of adam” in Gen 6 are the very same “daughters of adam”, from Seth's line, that were mentioned in chapter 5…….Do you have a valid reason to think they weren't? If so, show it to me.
Mike,No daughters were mentioned for Cain's line only sons. On the other hand Seth's line has daughters mentioned.
And what would you like me to learn from that statement, Kerwin?1. That Cain's line never produced females……. ever?
2. Or that you agree with me that the “daughters of adam” who were visited by the “sons of God” were indeed SETH'S daughters?
Seriously though, what is your point?
Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,00:36) Mike, Quote Also, are you saying “God's word” is more of a “literal Father” to us than God Himself? I did not say God's word is their father I said God is their Father by his word.
Kerwin,God is LITERALLY your Father. He is MORE of a father to you than your earthly father – for your earthly father couldn't begin to create you if not for the power bestowed upon him by your ULTIMATE Father in heaven.
If you choose to disagree, that's fine.
Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.Those words seem pretty clear to me, Kerwin. Do you intend to correct Jesus?
Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,15:26) Mike, Quote I know that's how you understand it. That's why I made that huge post explaining to you why your understanding can't be the truth of the matter. I'll wait for you to address the many points I made in that post.
Could you please let me know which post you are speaking of? Thank you.
9th post on page 20. Particularly the second portion, when I start quoting Genesis 5.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,08:56) Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,15:26) Mike, Quote I know that's how you understand it. That's why I made that huge post explaining to you why your understanding can't be the truth of the matter. I'll wait for you to address the many points I made in that post.
Could you please let me know which post you are speaking of? Thank you.
9th post on page 20. Particularly the second portion, when I start quoting Genesis 5.
Mike,Thank you.
Mike
Quote First, the word “disown” isn't actually in the scriptural account, Kerwin. So why would you post a definition of that word, and then act like I'm some kind of idiot? 1) So you could know the meaning of disown. It is “refuse to acknowledge or maintain any connection with” and a couple idioms we use are “turn one's back on” or “wash one's hands of”. Hebrews used the idiom “hide one’s face” instead.
Quote Second, even if a man “disowned” his son for whatever reason, that man is still the literal father of the boy he disowned. 2) He is the one that created Cain and hiding his face from him does not change that. It is the same with disowns his son as even disowned his son is his but the father no longer acknowledges the link.
Quote Third, Adam and Eve also “hid from God's presence” after they sinned, but Adam was still listed as “the son of God” in Luke's genealogy. 3) The idiom does not work that way as to work it is the disowner who hides his face from those that are disowned. Since Adam and Eve were hiding from his face they were hiding from his sight and not presence as some say. If you are naked and ashamed to find you that way then you will hide from their sight. They failed and God succeeded in hiding his face from Cain.
Quote 3) Fourth, if God truly “disowned” Cain, then He wouldn't have put a mark on him to keep the others from killing him. Nor would He have blessed Cain with a fertile wife and many children. Cain still ended up living a life that was blessed by God in many ways. He simply did not give Cain the death sentence though Cain deserved it.
Matthew 5:45
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.
Note:I hope to answer the rest later.
Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2014,22:15) Mike Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Second, even if a man “disowned” his son for whatever reason, that man is still the literal father of the boy he disowned. 2) He is the one that created Cain and hiding his face from him does not change that.
Then my point has been made. Cain began as a son of God, and being cursed to be a wanderer in the earth did not change his status as a son of God.I await your response to the Genesis 5-6 portion of that post.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,08:43) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,00:25) God declared he would not notice Cain.
Is that really the way it went down, Kerwin?Here is the curse God actually laid down on Cain:
Genesis 4
11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.And here's what Cain IMAGINED that curse meant:
Genesis 4:14
Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.And how did God respond?
Genesis 4:15
But Jehovah said to him, “Not so.”So the only thing Cain actually got right was that he would be a restless wanderer on the earth.
God never said, “YOU ARE BANISHED FROM MY PRESENCE, AND I DISOWN YOU AS A SON OF GOD.”
David said there was NO PLACE to which he could flee to escape God's presence. So how could Cain escape it by moving a few miles down the road?
Kerwin, you want a particular thing to be the case, and you are trying your best to imagine that the scriptures actually teach this thing.
Isn't that also what the Trinitarians do so well?
Mike,So you believe Cain misunderstood everything God states and not just that he believed that as an outlaw he was free for anyone to kill. I think that is a reasonable interpretation.
Mike,
Quote David said there was NO PLACE to which he could flee to escape God's presence. So how could Cain escape it by moving a few miles down the road? There is some things that seem to contradict your reasoning that Cain misunderstood everything God said. One is that it is written that:
Genesis 4:16
New English Translation (NET)16 So Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
As you point out David said there is no where you can escape the presence of God.
The other thing is that God only addressed one specific complaint of Cain's and that was that everyone would be out to kill him. God basically said that was not intent and so so put a mark on Cain to prevent it from occurring.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,08:53) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,00:36) Mike, Quote Also, are you saying “God's word” is more of a “literal Father” to us than God Himself? I did not say God's word is their father I said God is their Father by his word.
Kerwin,God is LITERALLY your Father. He is MORE of a father to you than your earthly father – for your earthly father couldn't begin to create you if not for the power bestowed upon him by your ULTIMATE Father in heaven.
If you choose to disagree, that's fine.
Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.Those words seem pretty clear to me, Kerwin. Do you intend to correct Jesus?
Mike,1) Jesus did not say he was speaking literally. I believe the disciples would have called that clearly.
2) God did not supply the male gamete or any other cell from his own body.Note: corrected word order.
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2014,14:16) Mike, So you believe Cain misunderstood everything God states and not just that he believed that as an outlaw he was free for anyone to kill. I think that is a reasonable interpretation.
The main thing to realize is that God Himself never banished Cain “from His presence”. God Himself never “disowned” Cain.Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2014,17:53) There is some things that seem to contradict your reasoning that Cain misunderstood everything God said. One is that it is written that: Genesis 4:16
New English Translation (NET)16 So Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
As you point out David said there is no where you can escape the presence of God.
So, what's the solution, Kerwin? Was Cain REALLY able to walk completely away from the presence of God by moving a few miles down the road?And, more to the point, did GOD ever tell Cain that he was banished from God's presence? NO.
Did GOD ever tell Cain He was going to disown him? NO.
Cain remained a son of God until the day he died. And since all are still alive to God, Cain still remains a son of God to this very day.
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2014,18:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,08:53) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,00:36) Mike, Quote Also, are you saying “God's word” is more of a “literal Father” to us than God Himself? I did not say God's word is their father I said God is their Father by his word.
Kerwin,God is LITERALLY your Father. He is MORE of a father to you than your earthly father – for your earthly father couldn't begin to create you if not for the power bestowed upon him by your ULTIMATE Father in heaven.
If you choose to disagree, that's fine.
Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.Those words seem pretty clear to me, Kerwin. Do you intend to correct Jesus?
Mike,1) Jesus did not say he was speaking literally. I believe the disciples would have called that clearly.
2) God did not supply the male gamete from his own body or any other cell.
Like I said, if you choose to disagree, that's fine by me.I'm sorry Kerwin, but I have more interesting things I'm discussing on this site right now. It's not really important to me that you think Seth's offspring were “children of God” while Cain's were “children of Adam”.
I think that line of reasoning isn't even worth my time to discuss. It should be clear to all that EVERY human being is both a “child of God” AND a “child of Adam”.
Through Jesus, we have the chance to become children of God IN A MUCH BETTER WAY, but we are all already “sons of God” and “sons of Adam”.
I notice that you STILL haven't addressed the Genesis 5-6 part of that post……… the part I specifically ASKED you to address at least two times after making the post.
Perhaps that part will shed some light on this topic for you, since the “daughters of Adam” mentioned in chapter 6 are same daughters of Adam and Seth that we learned about in chapter 5. (Well, not the exact SAME ones, but you know what I mean…… the OFFSPRING of the same two people: Adam and Seth.)
Funny……… you seem to have time to post miles of words on things I don't care about!
(Just messin' with ya!)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2014,08:48) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,00:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 18 2014,08:56)
…….the “daughters of adam” in Gen 6 are the very same “daughters of adam”, from Seth's line, that were mentioned in chapter 5…….Do you have a valid reason to think they weren't? If so, show it to me.
Mike,No daughters were mentioned for Cain's line only sons. On the other hand Seth's line has daughters mentioned.
And what would you like me to learn from that statement, Kerwin?1. That Cain's line never produced females……. ever?
2. Or that you agree with me that the “daughters of adam” who were visited by the “sons of God” were indeed SETH'S daughters?
Seriously though, what is your point?
Mike,Genesis 6:1
New English Translation (NET)6 When humankind began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
My point is that by this point Seth's line was already said to have daughters born to them while Cain's line was not.
The verse hints that daughters being born to “humankind” is a new event.
Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2014,08:26) Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2014,12:36) Mike, Quote Also, are you saying “God's word” is more of a “literal Father” to us than God Himself? I did not say God's word is their father I said God is their Father by his word.
Kthis does not make sens ,at all ,scriptures do not support this language
T,Scripture does. The Children of Israel were given God's word with the expectation they would obey it and those who enter the new testament are receive the spirit and live by it because they believe God's word.
In both ways they show they are God's children just like Abraham has children of his faith as well as children of his body.
Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2014,12:18) 6 When humankind began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, My point is that by this point Seth's line was already said to have daughters born to them while Cain's line was not.
Kerwin,If you believe that, then it HAD TO BE Seth's daughters who were taken by the “sons of God”.
Doesn't that shoot down your whole theory?
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