- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (georg @ Nov. 12 2009,02:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2009,15:17) Quote (georg @ Nov. 11 2009,22:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2009,14:26) Hello,
The story of Christ's birth encompasses more than 1 day. The event begins with the miraculous conception which very well might have been on Dec. 25th during the Festival of Lights and of course includes the actual birth and then the shepherds receiving the announcement which is most likely during September or October during the Feast of the Tabernacles and then the story continues till the Magi find Him by following His star and that star is very likely traced back to the lining up of particular celestial bodies who were at their brightest on a later Dec. 25th. So it is reasonable to celebrate the event on Dec. 25th because that is when the story began and ended.BTW, notice that the Magi were led to the celebration after some time had past since His actual birthday. Do you think Mary was ticked because they weren't there on His actual birthday? They were celebrating the event, not the day. They were following a star, God directed the star. Was God off in His timing? I think not. So, is the particular date important or the story? Personally, I don't think we need to get our knickers in a knot over the date. It should be a joyous time.
Just my two cents worth,
Kathi
Kathi! What you are saying about the Magi and that it went all the way to Dec, 25 is far fetched. And IMO not true.
At the time the Sheep where outside and that could have never happen in the death of winter. They were brought in at that time. I would like to agree with you, but it really does not make sense.
I know all is so beautiful and that is were most get hang up on.
Love Irene
Irene,
Re-read my post. I said that the actual birth was very likely in September during the Feast of the Tabernacle.I was reading about the Christmas star that the Magi followed. I'll find the site for you to read about the Festival of Lights and the Christmas star. I will just put up some of the excerpts and you can read the whole thing at this website:
http://ldolphin.org/birth.html
Quote THE CHRISTMAS STAR PART 2: We have seen that all the evidence points to Messiah being born in September of 3 BC. Furthermore we have noted that there are 4 reasons why this event is celebrated on December 25th. It was commented that one of those reasons involved the Wise Man and the final appearance of the Christmas Star. But how do we know this, and who were the Wise Men? Matthew 2:1 says that they came from the East, that is east of Judea…….
Quote But why did the Persian Magoi make such a perilous trip at all? There were 3 reasons. Firstly, the Hebrew prophet Daniel had been held in high regard in the Persian court. In Daniel 9, the Magoi had the prophecy of Messiah's sacrifice as a man cut off at age 35 (in the midst of his years). They knew that this event would occur 483 Babylonian years of 360 days after a specific decree. Backtracking 35 years gave a birth date for Messiah of 448 Babylonian years or 442 actual years after the decree. As It turned out, that decree was Issued by the Persian king Artaxerxes in his 20th year which was 445/444 BC. The Magoi consequently knew the time of Messiah's birth as around 3/2 BC on our Calendar. The second reason was that there had been a Mesopotamian prophet called Balaam who had foretold the coming of the Star that would herald Messiah for all the tribes of Israel (see Numbers 24). Finally, Zoroaster, a pupil of Daniel, had incorporated these prophecies in his bible, called the Zend Avesta, and Zoroastrianism was the State Religion of Persia at the time of Christ's birth. It prophesied that there would be born unto the Jews a King Messiah, and that His coming would be heralded by a sign In the heavens in the constellation Virgo.
Quote This leaves the option of planets. When we examine the night sky with planets in mind, a series of amazing celestial events occurred. On the 1st August 3 BC the drama began to unfold with Jupiter rising helically in the rays of dawn. On the 13 August Venus and Jupiter stood very close together in the sunrise. On the 18th, Mercury came out of the solar glare, and on September 1st, Mercury and Venus stood 1/3rd degree apart in Leo. These were dramatic events. The astronomers who were based at the Sippar Institute would see an astrological significance in these signs. Essentially, Jupiter, the King planet, had left the Sun, the Father of the Gods, to be conjoined with Venus, the Virgin Mother in the constellation of Leo, which is the symbol for the tribe of Judah in Israel. Furthermore, Mercury, the Messenger of the Gods, had come from the Sun's presence to stand with Venus the virgin mother in the rays of the dawn.
Then on 14th September 3 BC and 17th February and 8th May in 2 BC, Jupiter the King planet stood next to Regulus the brightest star in Leo, which also represented Royalty. Then came a climax to the display. On June 17th 2 BC, Venus and Jupiter, the two brightest planets in the Solar System, appeared to collide. They stood an Incredible 1/50th degree apart and seemed to fuse into one immense ball of Light. This was an unprecedented event. But that was not all. On 27th August in 2 BC there was a grand meeting of the planets In Virgo. Jupiter and Mars were only 1/7th degree apart and close at hand were Mercury and Venus standing together in the glare of the rising sun.
This dramatic sequence of events ending in Virgo qualified for the Star spoken of by the Zend Avesta. But then Jupiter left the other planets in the dawn, and moved westwards. This was the sign the Magoi were waiting for. Jupiter the key player in the Christmas star sequence was leading them towards Judea. And so they set out. From that moment in Mid-November, Jupiter the King planet actually went before them in the sky towards Judea. Six weeks later as the Magoi checked the pre-dawn sky, Jupiter was on the Meridian due south of Jerusalem. It would appear directly over Bethlehem 65 degrees above the southern horizon.
And just at that time, the final event occurred. Jupiter had reached its furthest point westward, and no longer moved against the background store. It actually 'Stood Over' where the young child was. Incredibly, on that some day, the Sun was at its furthest point south for the year, and stood still in the heavens (for that is what the word 'solstice' means). Jupiter was again in the con
stellation Virgo as the Zend Avesta predicted, when this occurred on 25th December in 2 BC. It was a unique sequence of events that had landed the Magoi at Bethlehem.The possible date of conception can be figured out from the timing of Elizabeth's pregnancy and Mary's visit. Mary is newly pregnant when she visits Elizabeth. It makes sense to me that Mary would conceive during a Jewish holiday and give birth during another Jewish holiday.
I know it is a lot to read. You might find it interesting though.
Love,
Kathi
I read some of it. However it is hard to read at nights for me. So I will read it in the morning. But as far as figuring out when Christ was born, that is exactly how Georg figured it out. Will get back with you on this tomorrow.
Well at least we agree on that, right.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,
Yes we do agree that Jesus was born in September most likely and during the Feast of Tabernacles. The Christmas story includes His birth as a part of the story but there is more to the story than what happened on one day. Christmas celebrates the whole story from conception to the magi's visit and that all didn't happen on one day. If you read the info on my last post you will see that Dec. 25 was likely when Jesus was conceived (the first day of the Festival of Lights-Jesus is the light of the world after all) and when the magi showed up (see the info regarding the Star of the East). Neverless, the Christmas story is not about what happened one day in our history but what happened over a period of time, so maybe you don't have to worry so much about a date and just celebrate the story.Love,
KathiQuote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,10:09) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Nov. 13 2009,04:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2009,08:22) And then there are those of us who can sing this song and be in awe of the event and the babe in the manger. [FLASH=340,285]http://[/FLASH]
I first heard this song in church and by that time I had my fourth baby boy. I was overcome with emotion because I could so relate to Mary as a mother of her firstborn son. I wondered about the amazing plans that God had in-store for my boys. I worship the Son of God as the only Begotten God who is the real deal…no fake Son of God…no dysfunction in that. The event was real…angels showed up to celebrate.
Peace and joy,
Kathi
2Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us–eternal life.
Ac 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
There exists NO scripture that says that the promise of God was to send a son He already had to become a man.
Acts 13: 30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings–that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son,Today I have begotten You.' 34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Lu 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Eph 5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have born the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was and is a MAN, not fully man and fully the one true God. Jesus received, from the One True God, the promise of the Spirit of eternal life. Jesus was raised flesh and bone and we too shall be raised with incorruptible flesh and bone!!!!!!
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
The ONE TRUE God the Father calls Jesus God because with the powers the Father HAS GIVEN to him, and with his position as a MEDIATOR that HAS been GIVEN to him, Jesus is to us as a God, but there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD of which ALL power and life COMES FROM, and that is YHWH the Father!
1Cor. 8:5-7… even as there are many Gods and many Lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is.
Lu 12:40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
The MAN, resurrected with flesh and bones IS COMING, those who say he is coming as the one true God are of the antichrist!
Tell me Jodi what does these Scriptures have to do with Christmas day, which this tread is all about?
I want to a
sk you a question, I was just thinking your Parents go to the United Church of God,right? So do they keep Christmas?
Iren
The above scriptures are in response to Kathi's claim that Jesus is the only begotten God. I was showing that Jesus was MADE our lord and savior by the Father, who alone is the One True God.My parents dropped out of The United Church of God due to an arrogant and insensitive pastor, and as well, from the way the church treated her for missing church due to her taking care of her dying Grandmother. According to the church her missing the sabbath repeatedly to take care of her grandmother was unacceptable.
If you mean celebrate Christmas by going to MASS and worshiping Jesus as the One True God and celebrating his birthday on December 25, NO, my parents do not do that.
They do get a tree and decorate it, they do buy presents for family and friends and they do gather for a dinner on December 25th. They have only been doing this for the past three years now I think.Christmas is funny, some people worship Jesus as the One True God and celebrate his birthday on it as if it were the most sacred day on earth, some pagans still worship on it, and still others don't do any worshiping, they just follow what has become an American tradition of decorating trees, buying gifts, gathering together with family and friends enjoying eggnog and eating good food, oh and of course there is always watching Christmas Vacation with Chevy Chase! Personally I think we'd all be better off if we just joined together and celebrated Jimmy Buffets birthday instead!!
Jodi,
The Son of God who became flesh was made our Lord and Savior by the Father who alone is the One True God…no argument there. He was never said to be MADE the only begotten Son though. Were your children MADE to be your children or were they always your children? A true Son is not made to be a son, he just is or he isn't.Quote (Jodi Lee @ Nov. 12 2009,18:47) Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,10:09) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Nov. 13 2009,04:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2009,08:22) And then there are those of us who can sing this song and be in awe of the event and the babe in the manger. [FLASH=340,285]http://[/FLASH]
I first heard this song in church and by that time I had my fourth baby boy. I was overcome with emotion because I could so relate to Mary as a mother of her firstborn son. I wondered about the amazing plans that God had in-store for my boys. I worship the Son of God as the only Begotten God who is the real deal…no fake Son of God…no dysfunction in that. The event was real…angels showed up to celebrate.
Peace and joy,
Kathi
2Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us–eternal life.
Ac 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
There exists NO scripture that says that the promise of God was to send a son He already had to become a man.
Acts 13: 30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings–that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son,Today I have begotten You.' 34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Lu 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Eph 5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have born the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was and is a MAN, not fully man and fully the one true God. Jesus received, from the One True God, the promise of the Spirit of eternal life. Jesus was raised flesh and bone and we too shall be raised with incorruptible flesh and bone!!!!!!
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
The ONE TRUE God the Father calls Jesus God because with the powers the Father HAS GIVEN to him, and with his position as a MEDIATOR that HAS been GIVEN to him, Jesus is to us as a God, but there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD of which ALL power and life COMES FROM, and that is YHWH the Father!
1Cor. 8:5-7… even as there are many Gods and many Lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is.
Lu 12:40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
The MAN, resurrected with flesh and bones IS COMING, those who say he is com
ing as the one true God are of the antichrist!
Tell me Jodi what does these Scriptures have to do with Christmas day, which this tread is all about?
I want to ask you a question, I was just thinking your Parents go to the United Church of God,right? So do they keep Christmas?
Iren
The above scriptures are in response to Kathi's claim that Jesus is the only begotten God. I was showing that Jesus was MADE our lord and savior by the Father, who alone is the One True God.My parents dropped out of The United Church of God due to an arrogant and insensitive pastor, and as well, from the way the church treated her for missing church due to her taking care of her dying Grandmother. According to the church her missing the sabbath repeatedly to take care of her grandmother was unacceptable.
If you mean celebrate Christmas by going to MASS and worshiping Jesus as the One True God and celebrating his birthday on December 25, NO, my parents do not do that.
They do get a tree and decorate it, they do buy presents for family and friends and they do gather for a dinner on December 25th. They have only been doing this for the past three years now I think.Christmas is funny, some people worship Jesus as the One True God and celebrate his birthday on it as if it were the most sacred day on earth, some pagans still worship on it, and still others don't do any worshiping, they just follow what has become an American tradition of decorating trees, buying gifts, gathering together with family and friends enjoying eggnog and eating good food, oh and of course there is always watching Christmas Vacation with Chevy Chase! Personally I think we'd all be better off if we just joined together and celebrated Jimmy Buffets birthday instead!!
I wonder where all the Halloween supporters are, I figured they would be in here for the defense of christmas?
Hi Jodi! Christmas is funny? Well, I have modified Christmas too, and have bought our Grandson presents last year, since He was only 7 years old then. However this year I have not talked to Georg yet, what we are going to do.
As far as the United Church of God is concerned, that is really uncalled for. I would have done the same in your parents case. Some Brethren that go to the W.W.C.G. yet, went back to believing in the trinity now. They don't call them self W.W.C.G. either, they have taken on the Name of a Church Her in the Cincinnati area. Forgot the name of it.
Yes, things have changed.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Lightenup @ Nov. 13 2009,13:17) Quote (georg @ Nov. 12 2009,02:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2009,15:17) Quote (georg @ Nov. 11 2009,22:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2009,14:26) Hello,
The story of Christ's birth encompasses more than 1 day. The event begins with the miraculous conception which very well might have been on Dec. 25th during the Festival of Lights and of course includes the actual birth and then the shepherds receiving the announcement which is most likely during September or October during the Feast of the Tabernacles and then the story continues till the Magi find Him by following His star and that star is very likely traced back to the lining up of particular celestial bodies who were at their brightest on a later Dec. 25th. So it is reasonable to celebrate the event on Dec. 25th because that is when the story began and ended.BTW, notice that the Magi were led to the celebration after some time had past since His actual birthday. Do you think Mary was ticked because they weren't there on His actual birthday? They were celebrating the event, not the day. They were following a star, God directed the star. Was God off in His timing? I think not. So, is the particular date important or the story? Personally, I don't think we need to get our knickers in a knot over the date. It should be a joyous time.
Just my two cents worth,
Kathi
Kathi! What you are saying about the Magi and that it went all the way to Dec, 25 is far fetched. And IMO not true.
At the time the Sheep where outside and that could have never happen in the death of winter. They were brought in at that time. I would like to agree with you, but it really does not make sense.
I know all is so beautiful and that is were most get hang up on.
Love Irene
Irene,
Re-read my post. I said that the actual birth was very likely in September during the Feast of the Tabernacle.I was reading about the Christmas star that the Magi followed. I'll find the site for you to read about the Festival of Lights and the Christmas star. I will just put up some of the excerpts and you can read the whole thing at this website:
http://ldolphin.org/birth.html
Quote THE CHRISTMAS STAR PART 2: We have seen that all the evidence points to Messiah being born in September of 3 BC. Furthermore we have noted that there are 4 reasons why this event is celebrated on December 25th. It was commented that one of those reasons involved the Wise Man and the final appearance of the Christmas Star. But how do we know this, and who were the Wise Men? Matthew 2:1 says that they came from the East, that is east of Judea…….
Quote But why did the Persian Magoi make such a perilous trip at all? There were 3 reasons. Firstly, the Hebrew prophet Daniel had been held in high regard in the Persian court. In Daniel 9, the Magoi had the prophecy of Messiah's sacrifice as a man cut off at age 35 (in the midst of his years). They knew that this event would occur 483 Babylonian years of 360 days after a specific decree. Backtracking 35 years gave a birth date for Messiah of 448 Babylonian years or 442 actual years after the decree. As It turned out, that decree was Issued by the Persian king Artaxerxes in his 20th year which was 445/444 BC. The Magoi consequently knew the time of Messiah's birth as around 3/2 BC on our Calendar. The second reason was that there had been a Mesopotamian prophet called Balaam who had foretold the coming of the Star that would herald Messiah for all the tribes of Israel (see Numbers 24). Finally, Zoroaster, a pupil of Daniel, had incorporated these prophecies in his bible, called the Zend Avesta, and Zoroastrianism was the State Religion of Persia at the time of Christ's birth. It prophesied that there would be born unto the Jews a King Messiah, and that His coming would be heralded by a sign In the heavens in the constellation Virgo.
Quote This leaves the option of planets. When we examine the night sky with planets in mind, a series of amazing celestial events occurred. On the 1st August 3 BC the drama began to unfold with Jupiter rising helically in the rays of dawn. On the 13 August Venus and Jupiter stood very close together in the sunrise. On the 18th, Mercury came out of the solar glare, and on September 1st, Mercury and Venus stood 1/3rd degree apart in Leo. These were dramatic events. The astronomers who were based at the Sippar Institute would see an astrological significance in these signs. Essentially, Jupiter, the King planet, had left the Sun, the Father of the Gods, to be conjoined with Venus, the Virgin Mother in the constellation of Leo, which is the symbol for the tribe of Judah in Israel. Furthermore, Mercury, the Messenger of the Gods, had come from the Sun's presence to stand with Venus the virgin mother in the rays of the dawn.
Then on 14th September 3 BC and 17th February and 8th May in 2 BC, Jupiter the King planet stood next to Regulus the brightest star in Leo, which also represented Royalty. Then came a climax to the display. On June 17th 2 BC, Venus and Jupiter, the two brightest planets in the Solar System, appeared to collide. They stood an Incredible 1/50th degree apart and seemed to fuse into one immense ball of Light. This was an unprecedented event. But that was not all. On 27th August in 2 BC there was a grand meeting of the planets In Virgo. Jupiter and Mars were only 1/7th degree apart and close at hand were Mercury and Venus standing together in the glare of the rising sun.
This dramatic sequence of events ending in Virgo qualified for the Star spoken of by the Zend Avesta. But then Jupiter left the other planets in the dawn, and moved westwards. This was the sign the Magoi were waiting for. Jupiter the key player in the Christmas star sequence was leading them towards Judea. And so they set out. From that moment in Mid-November, Jupiter the King planet actually went before them in the sky towards Judea. Six weeks later as the Magoi checked the pre-dawn sky, Jupiter was on the Meridian due south of Jerusalem. It would appear directly over Bethlehem 65 degrees above the southern horizon.
And just at that time, the final event occurred. Jupiter had reached its furthest point westward, and no longer moved against the background store. It actually 'Stood Over'
where the young child was. Incredibly, on that some day, the Sun was at its furthest point south for the year, and stood still in the heavens (for that is what the word 'solstice' means). Jupiter was again in the constellation Virgo as the Zend Avesta predicted, when this occurred on 25th December in 2 BC. It was a unique sequence of events that had landed the Magoi at Bethlehem.The possible date of conception can be figured out from the timing of Elizabeth's pregnancy and Mary's visit. Mary is newly pregnant when she visits Elizabeth. It makes sense to me that Mary would conceive during a Jewish holiday and give birth during another Jewish holiday.
I know it is a lot to read. You might find it interesting though.
Love,
Kathi
I read some of it. However it is hard to read at nights for me. So I will read it in the morning. But as far as figuring out when Christ was born, that is exactly how Georg figured it out. Will get back with you on this tomorrow.
Well at least we agree on that, right.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,
Yes we do agree that Jesus was born in September most likely and during the Feast of Tabernacles. The Christmas story includes His birth as a part of the story but there is more to the story than what happened on one day. Christmas celebrates the whole story from conception to the magi's visit and that all didn't happen on one day. If you read the info on my last post you will see that Dec. 25 was likely when Jesus was conceived (the first day of the Festival of Lights-Jesus is the light of the world after all) and when the magi showed up (see the info regarding the Star of the East). Neverless, the Christmas story is not about what happened one day in our history but what happened over a period of time, so maybe you don't have to worry so much about a date and just celebrate the story.Love,
Kathi
Hi Kathi! I am glad we agree on Jesus birthday. So the rest I am putting to rest.
Love IreneQuote (georg @ Nov. 12 2009,19:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 13 2009,13:17) Quote (georg @ Nov. 12 2009,02:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2009,15:17) Quote (georg @ Nov. 11 2009,22:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2009,14:26) Hello,
The story of Christ's birth encompasses more than 1 day. The event begins with the miraculous conception which very well might have been on Dec. 25th during the Festival of Lights and of course includes the actual birth and then the shepherds receiving the announcement which is most likely during September or October during the Feast of the Tabernacles and then the story continues till the Magi find Him by following His star and that star is very likely traced back to the lining up of particular celestial bodies who were at their brightest on a later Dec. 25th. So it is reasonable to celebrate the event on Dec. 25th because that is when the story began and ended.BTW, notice that the Magi were led to the celebration after some time had past since His actual birthday. Do you think Mary was ticked because they weren't there on His actual birthday? They were celebrating the event, not the day. They were following a star, God directed the star. Was God off in His timing? I think not. So, is the particular date important or the story? Personally, I don't think we need to get our knickers in a knot over the date. It should be a joyous time.
Just my two cents worth,
Kathi
Kathi! What you are saying about the Magi and that it went all the way to Dec, 25 is far fetched. And IMO not true.
At the time the Sheep where outside and that could have never happen in the death of winter. They were brought in at that time. I would like to agree with you, but it really does not make sense.
I know all is so beautiful and that is were most get hang up on.
Love Irene
Irene,
Re-read my post. I said that the actual birth was very likely in September during the Feast of the Tabernacle.I was reading about the Christmas star that the Magi followed. I'll find the site for you to read about the Festival of Lights and the Christmas star. I will just put up some of the excerpts and you can read the whole thing at this website:
http://ldolphin.org/birth.html
Quote THE CHRISTMAS STAR PART 2: We have seen that all the evidence points to Messiah being born in September of 3 BC. Furthermore we have noted that there are 4 reasons why this event is celebrated on December 25th. It was commented that one of those reasons involved the Wise Man and the final appearance of the Christmas Star. But how do we know this, and who were the Wise Men? Matthew 2:1 says that they came from the East, that is east of Judea…….
Quote But why did the Persian Magoi make such a perilous trip at all? There were 3 reasons. Firstly, the Hebrew prophet Daniel had been held in high regard in the Persian court. In Daniel 9, the Magoi had the prophecy of Messiah's sacrifice as a man cut off at age 35 (in the midst of his years). They knew that this event would occur 483 Babylonian years of 360 days after a specific decree. Backtracking 35 years gave a birth date for Messiah of 448 Babylonian years or 442 actual years after the decree. As It turned out, that decree was Issued by the Persian king Artaxerxes in his 20th year which was 445/444 BC. The Magoi consequently knew the time of Messiah's birth as around 3/2 BC on our Calendar. The second reason was that there had been a Mesopotamian prophet called Balaam who had foretold the coming of the Star that would herald Messiah for all the tribes of Israel (see Numbers 24). Finally, Zoroaster, a pupil of Daniel, had incorporated these prophecies in his bible, called the Zend Avesta, and Zoroastrianism was the State Religion of Persia at the time of Christ's birth. It prophesied that there would be born unto the Jews a King Messiah, and that His coming would be heralded by a sign In the heavens in the constellation Virgo.
Quote This leaves the option of planets. When we examine the night sky with planets in mind, a series of amazing celestial events occurred. On the 1st August 3 BC the drama began to unfold with Jupiter rising helically in the rays of dawn. On the 13 August Venus and Jupiter stood very close together in the sunrise. On the 18th, Mercury came out of the solar glare, and on September 1st, Mercury and Venus stood 1/3rd degree apart in Leo. These were dramatic events. The astronomers who were based at the Sippar Institute would see an astrological significance in these signs. Essentially, Jupiter, the King planet, had left the Sun, the Father of the Gods, to be conjoined with Venus, the Virgin Mother in the constellation of Leo, which is the symbol for the tribe of Judah in Israel. Furthermore, Mercury, the Messenger of the Gods, had come from the Sun's presence to stand with Venus the virgin mother in the rays of the dawn.
Then on 14th September 3 BC and 17th February and 8th May in 2 BC, Jupiter the King planet stood next to Regulus the brightest star in Leo, which also represented Royalty. Then came a climax to the display. On June 17th 2 BC, Venus and Jupiter, the two brightest planets in the Solar System, appeared to collide. They stood an Incredible 1/50th degree apart and seemed to fuse into one immense ball of Light. This was an unprecedented event. But that was not all. On 27th August in 2 BC there was a grand meeting of the planets In Virgo. Jupiter and Mars were only 1/7th degree apart and close at hand were Mercury and Venus standing together in the glare of the rising sun.
This dramatic sequence of events ending in Virgo qualified for the Star spoken of by the Zend Avesta. But then Jupiter left the other planets in the dawn, and moved westwards. This was the sign the Magoi were waiting for. Jupiter the key player in the Christmas star sequence was leading them towards Judea. And so they set out. From that moment in Mid-November, Jupiter the King planet actually went before them in the sky towards Judea. Six weeks later as the Magoi checked the pre-dawn sky, Jupiter was on the Meridian due south of Jerusalem. It would appear directly over Bethlehem 65 degrees abo
ve the southern horizon.And just at that time, the final event occurred. Jupiter had reached its furthest point westward, and no longer moved against the background store. It actually 'Stood Over' where the young child was. Incredibly, on that some day, the Sun was at its furthest point south for the year, and stood still in the heavens (for that is what the word 'solstice' means). Jupiter was again in the constellation Virgo as the Zend Avesta predicted, when this occurred on 25th December in 2 BC. It was a unique sequence of events that had landed the Magoi at Bethlehem.
The possible date of conception can be figured out from the timing of Elizabeth's pregnancy and Mary's visit. Mary is newly pregnant when she visits Elizabeth. It makes sense to me that Mary would conceive during a Jewish holiday and give birth during another Jewish holiday.
I know it is a lot to read. You might find it interesting though.
Love,
Kathi
I read some of it. However it is hard to read at nights for me. So I will read it in the morning. But as far as figuring out when Christ was born, that is exactly how Georg figured it out. Will get back with you on this tomorrow.
Well at least we agree on that, right.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,
Yes we do agree that Jesus was born in September most likely and during the Feast of Tabernacles. The Christmas story includes His birth as a part of the story but there is more to the story than what happened on one day. Christmas celebrates the whole story from conception to the magi's visit and that all didn't happen on one day. If you read the info on my last post you will see that Dec. 25 was likely when Jesus was conceived (the first day of the Festival of Lights-Jesus is the light of the world after all) and when the magi showed up (see the info regarding the Star of the East). Neverless, the Christmas story is not about what happened one day in our history but what happened over a period of time, so maybe you don't have to worry so much about a date and just celebrate the story.Love,
Kathi
Hi Kathi! I am glad we agree on Jesus birthday. So the rest I am putting to rest.
Love Irene
Heathenism is Heathenism, Paganism is Paganism, Secularist are Secularist, Athiest are Athiest.True believers do not mix anything that does not come from 'Elohim.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.
2Peter 2:18-19 For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 13 2009,19:15) Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.
2Peter 2:18-19 For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
You know what, to accuse a Brethren like that is very much uncalled for here.
Also to come between two people debating does not fit to well with me, so bud out.
Irene
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 13 2009,19:15) Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.
2Peter 2:18-19 For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
I don't think I like this either.What is EVIL?
Is ignorance?
In some instances the word dysfunctional is a much better representation of the view of YHWH, as Jeff Benner from the Ancient Hebrew Research Center translates the original word that we often see translated as evil. Even the word translated evil is used to describe God's own work, the work of infliction on people.
Growing up in the WWC of God, at least in our congregation, I was taught to HATE Christmas, to view Christmas trees as EVIL and everything that went with Christmas as evil. Today I like to see things through COMMON SENSE, instead of through an unnecessary Heart of Hatred, of which I believe YHWH dislikes more then He dislikes people's ignorance.
Don't worship false idols, because they are useless, making them dysfunctional, this was YHWH's message to those He chose to reveal Himself to. Even through YHWH’s message we know that some did not believe Him and disobeyed Him, these people are stubborn like our own children don’t listen to us. Are our own children EVIL? As said before, pagans were never given the TRUTH from YHWH, they were left to their own imaginations, which are ignorant, NOT evil. Choosing to sacrifice your children to worship your god, now that is an evil practice. We should not worship YHWH in that manner, for it would be evil. Using trees as a symbol is NOT evil in itself, and YHWH Himself has given us TREES as SYMBOLS. We have the two Trees in the garden, and we have the Tree of Life again in Revelations that bears 12 fruits and it's leaves are for the healing of the nations. People are symbolized as trees by the prophets in the OT.
As mentioned before pagans brought flowers into their home and put them in vases and it honored their god, does that mean we should not do the same? Puritans ruled against wedding rings because they were heathen practices.
Are you against wedding rings Constitutionalist?
Do you think YHWH really wants us to walk around with HATRED towards EVERYTHING thing the pagans did to honor their gods, or rather does He want us to understand their ignorance and acknowledge that their gods are of no value?
I do not believe that YHWH thinks we are evil or sinful if we wear wedding rings, shake hands, or decorate trees. If pagans were to use fireworks in celebration, should we not use fireworks then? Where does it end? Should we live in fear of YHWH, making sure that everything we do is not something that the pagans due or did thousands of years ago? Seriously what a burden, and what an easy way to fill a person's heart with unnecessary hatred and ridiculous fears.
My aunt and uncle got a tree every year and decorated it and put presents under it. They were NEITHER Christians or Pagans. They knew nothing of the origins of Christmas and they knew nothing of pagan practices. They did it because that is what their parents did it and it was FUN. As a child in the WWC when going over to their house at Christmas time, I thought they were bad and their tree was evil. I was indoctrinated to be filled with fear and hate. I am so glad that their god is no longer my God!!
Jodi! Saying all those bad things about the W.W.Church of God, I want to add this:” Those 10 years that we were there were t all that bad, in fact I had asked our Daughter not to long ago, about that. This is Her reply. “Mom you know those years were good years, Even tho. at tme I did not like it, but most of the time I did.” She always liked the many occasions that they could dress up in Formals ec.
She played Volleyball and belonged to the Youth Group. I sang in the Choir and we had good times,along with finally learning to read the Bible whcih we never did in the Catholic Church. I was also impressed that Brethren never Gossiped. On the Sabbath we spend most of the day with Brethren. Either going out to eat or at Home taking turns cooking. I gues it was up to the individual Parents how they taught their Children. I met some wonderful people there. I had a friend for live. She died a couple of years go. I still stay in contact with one friend that moved to Florida.
Jodi, we had Mr. League for a Minister and when He got transferred we got Mr. Dennis, who was also our Choir Director, in the Cincinnati area. I don't know were your at and what the Minister expected from you, but Mr.L.and Mr. D were both nice, but strict in certain things, I agreed with at tho.
Cindy was 13 years old when we joined, we left in 1994, when all the trouble started.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (georg @ Nov. 14 2009,05:32) Jodi! Saying all those bad things about the W.W.Church of God, I want to add this:” Those 10 years that we were there were t all that bad, in fact I had asked our Daughter not to long ago, about that. This is Her reply. “Mom you know those years were good years, Even tho. at tme I did not like it, but most of the time I did.” She always liked the many occasions that they could dress up in Formals ec.
She played Volleyball and belonged to the Youth Group. I sang in the Choir and we had good times,along with finally learning to read the Bible whcih we never did in the Catholic Church. I was also impressed that Brethren never Gossiped. On the Sabbath we spend most of the day with Brethren. Either going out to eat or at Home taking turns cooking. I gues it was up to the individual Parents how they taught their Children. I met some wonderful people there. I had a friend for live. She died a couple of years go. I still stay in contact with one friend that moved to Florida.
Jodi, we had Mr. League for a Minister and when He got transferred we got Mr. Dennis, who was also our Choir Director, in the Cincinnati area. I don't know were your at and what the Minister expected from you, but Mr.L.and Mr. D were both nice, but strict in certain things, I agreed with at tho.
Cindy was 13 years old when we joined, we left in 1994, when all the trouble started.
Peace and Love Irene
Hello Irene,I have great memories of going to WWC of God too. I think like any church their is good and bad. The youth program was great, and going to S.E.P was one of the best experiences of my teenage years. We had some great pastors and elders. My parents were both deacons, my dad led songs and gave sermonettes, my mom always did the flowers and was in charge of organizing after service refreshments. We always either opened and set up or cleaned up and closed for services. Right before the split I was accepted to go to Ambassador on a volleyball scholarship, of which I was very excited to attend. In many ways I miss the church and the people, especially the Feast of Tabernacles, that was always a wonderful time of year.
Peace to you and Georg, Jodi
Irene…….I attended the wwcg for seven years, and greately enjoyed the Feast of Tabernacles with my family , it was our only vacation once a year, at Tahoe, is was a beautiful time of Year, we all enjoyed it very much and met many wonderful People there. I believe we will continue the Feast in the Kingdom of Christ in the thousand year period, and will once again experience the great Joy we all had again.
The wwcg had some wonderful people in it, in fact one of my best friends Just died a week and a half ago. I know him and his family for over 38 years. Irene your minister AL Dennis, was our minister in Fresno and was transfered just before i entered the Church. I left the church because I came to see (after seven years) and much study they were simple wrong on many things they taught, Tithes, were never part of the new testament Church, Also they used trepidation to control people. Some of the minister were decent , but believe me some were tyrants. Mr Armstrong seamed to change when His wife Loma Died, I think he felt responsible for her death , because what she had (and intestinal blockage) could have been easily fixed by surgery, but at that time the Church did not believe in Doctors, as you probably know .
There was a time when Mr. Armstrong used to say he was nothing but a hunk of junk, but later he became the “ONLY” apostle on earth today”. His wealth and control over people went to his Head, He became puffed up and began accusing the brethren. I remember at one feast He accused us of Robbing GOD by not giving enough, we were giving not just one tithe or two tithes, but every third year a third tithe also, not to mention we had to do it before taxes and still have to pay our taxes, and some how support our families, I knew people who would borrow money in order to make it through a third tithe year.
I saw great abuses carried out by Ministers also. I finally Just called our minister MR Billingsly and an elder and told them some of the things i thought was wrong, and i could no longer support the church. They did not kick me out but threatened to Mark me if i called any one, they were truly worried about us leaving as we had many friends in the church, I told them we would not call, anyone, but if they called me and ask me why i left i would tell them no matter if they marked me or not. Many did call and still came by and visited often. I felt everyone should make up their own mind, I went with GTA for a while until a friend of mines daughter whose husband was His accountant called and told Me they had Quite His church also because He was taking tithing money and using it to by Personal Property in Tyler TEXAS. Garner Ted proved to just be another shame artist like the rest. God help us all.
With all that said, i still am looking forward to Keeping the FEAST of TABERNACLES in the KINGDOM of Christ during the Thousand year period as scripture says will happen. There were many wonderful people in the wwcg. And there were some very good minister also. Loving and caring ministers full of GOD'S Spirit. Many also left or were kicked out, like AL Portune, David Jon HILL, David Anton, AH Martian, and the plumber can't think of his name right now. They were some very dynamic and inspiring Ministers in the church, specially in the early days of the church.
God's Spirit was truly in the people in that Church maybe it was because of their committed attitudes to Him and His word, The church was spiritually growing until Armstrong Changed and Started casting out ministers and would not accept change as GOD was revealing them to the ministers. If you get a Chance read AH Martians book on Tithing. It a big seller. Armstrong kicked him out also. I noticed the big Change when His wife died and He started building the Auditorium in Pasadena. After that things started going down hill it seems.
Peace and love to you and Georg………………………….gene
Hi Jodi and Gene! You both put tears in my eyes. I am so sorry about all that happened to you Gene!!
We joined in 1964 and were Baptized in Dec. 1985. Mr. Armstrong died that year, and we did not experienced some of the things you did. One of the brethren who became good friend did tell us about it. We would not have stayed I tell you that much, and I told them so. That Lady friend told a Minister off on day, because He wanted to correct Her Daughter. He never said another word about it.
For us in the third tith year was awesome. Georg always paid t tithes first ad there always was money to pay our taxes. In fact since we had sold our Business to our Son, the Bookkeeper we had presented us with a nice Tax Bill. We had always put all the money we made back into the Business. We did not ask our Son for a down-payment or a Loan just Monthly payments. The way our Bookkeeper had figured out the Taxes we ended up with a nice Bill. To make a long story short. One day the Lady from the I.R.S. came to where Georg worked and told us this is what your going to pay us each Month. Georg told Her that we were having our third Tithe Year. She told Georg sorry not this year. Georg each month payed all the Tithes and then we still had money for the taxes. We could never figured out how that was possible.
Blessings still happen when you put your trust in God.
Peace and Love IreneMerry Christmas to all who celebrate…enjoy your family as you honor the Christmas story from the miracle conception through the visit of the Magi.
Has anyone read “The Revelation of the Magi?”
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 24 2010,12:48) Merry Christmas to all who celebrate…enjoy your family as you honor the Christmas story from the miracle conception through the visit of the Magi. Has anyone read “The Revelation of the Magi?”
KathiMerry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
The story of the Magi contradicts Matthews account. So I am going to stick with Matthew since there are over 5000 manuscripts that reveal Matthews account.
I think this just cast more doubt on the validity of the inspired scriptures.
Blessings Keith
We went to a candle light procession which was put on by a secular company, they did a very good job of accurately telling of the birth of God's Son to an audience of thousands.
Philippians 1:18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice.
Merry Christmas Kathi, Keith and all who enjoy the freedom and liberty which we have in Christ Jesus (apologizes to those who are offended ).
Wm
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
