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Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 09 2014,14:16) Psalms 33:6 ***By the word of the LORD***
were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the
breath of his mouth.And that *WORD* was walking on earth clocked in flesh.
Wakeup,Like Charles told you in the “Word” thread, you must not confuse Jesus as “The Word” with literal words from God's mouth.
I mean, look at the psalm you quoted. If Jesus was a LITERAL word that came out of God's mouth, then he was also the LITERAL breath that came out of God's mouth.
Psalm 33:6 is telling us that by the very COMMAND of God, the heavens were made.
It is NOT talking about LITERAL words and breath from God's mouth running around creating things.
Perhaps you could go talk to Charles or jammin about the difference between “The Word of God” and “words God spoke” for a while. Then once they set you straight, come back here and talk to me again.
I only suggest this because you are numbing my mind with this never-ending nonsense.
Here are a few translations of that psalm for you to consider:
NET ©
By the Lord’s decree the heavens were made…..NLT ©
The LORD merely spoke, and the heavens were created………MSG ©
The skies were made by GOD's command………You must go and learn the vast DIFFERENCE between God's spokesman, who is METAPHORICALLY called “The Word of God”, and the LITERAL words that God has been speaking for eons.
The vast majority of times that “the word of God” is mentioned in scripture, it refers merely to words, commands, decrees, or laws that God has related to us.
Only in a very FEW scriptures does the phrase “the Word of God” refer to an actual living breathing BEING.
You need to learn the DIFFERENCE between these two meanings of “the word of God”.
Mike B.
Just read rev.19.
He; is a BEING coming,and he is called the WORD of God.
He is not just breath.Or is He?wakeup.
Mike, reading this reply was the not the best remedy for my head-ache today, but made it worse actually lol.
Quote Hi journey, I don't understand the last line of your post, or why that line is even there.
Where is the word Jehovah is what I mean't. Shouldn't it look like this;
NWT
John 1:18 No man has seen JEHOVAH at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.If his name is so important, and the NEW TESTAMENT, is what is preached to the gentiles, then why was the name Jehovah not mentioned once in there. 7000 times in the OLD TESTAMENT, and not once in the NT?
Quote journey, there are about 5 more paragraphs about this one verse in that NETNotes article. The information gets even more detailed than the parts I've posted here. Mike, NETnotes is not our God. The truth can only come from the Word of God.
Quote And there are a million other words written about this verse by a hundred other scholars. Because they are all confused also.
Quote Most English Bibles today opt for the “god” translation, because they figure the older mss are the correct ones, and that the newer mss reflect the CHANGES certain scribes made to the text when they thought “only begotten god” was too hard of a reading.
I hear you Mike, but this all sounds like personal interpretation to me. Man trying to figure out what God is saying, and using guesswork.
I read that not only do 5% of the minority texts, not agree with the majority texts,
but that they do not agree with each other.
Each one stands alone having no faithfulness to their witness. And the NWT, is just another one of them.
The other 95% of the majority texts all agree.Quote If you personally prefer “only begotten son” in this verse, I can't prove you wrong.
It harmonises, with all the other scriptures.Quote But neither can you prove that the NWT – and all the many other English Bibles that have “god” instead of “son” – are wrong. Nor could you say that all the many other Bibles that have “god” instead of “son” in John 1:18 are trying to “keep Jesus out of the Bible as much as they can” – or whatever the lame claim you're making against the NWT is. I can't prove anything, other than the NWT does not harmonise. That I will state. For me, there seems like a lot of coverups. It all comes down to choice. If one is happy with the NWT, and can see no fault, then stick to it, but if something is nagging at you, then search it out thoroughly. Because the difference is you may be arguing and defending something that is not inspired by God.
Quote Bottom line: Nobody can honestly fault the KJV for having “only begotten son” in 1:18. And nobody can honestly fault the NWT, or any of the many other Bibles, for having “god” instead of “son” in 1:18. Do you understand all of this? (I'd really like a YES or a NO)
Yes, I understand what you are saying, but It doesn't cut it for me.Do you understand that God chose a language that would drive these scholars crazy, having to “guess” the interpretation of his word.
Do you understand that God chose a language that can be interpreted in many ways to snare those who do not believe that the way God gave it is the the inspired and correct interpretaton?
Do you understand that the outcome is confusion?
and therefore because many do not trust that God preserved his word, they can get wrapped up in all this confusion?I understand what you were saying about Step 1 – Step 5, and that is they were CONFUSED. Not sure.
Do you understand Mike, that I trust God, and when God said he preserved his Word, I believe him.
and because I trust God I cannot believe what you are saying.
I believe they were confused yes.You don't believe in his promise,
you don't believe in his power,
Well I do Mike,
and whatever their reasons,
I can't chew on it one bit.I could pick on the NWT all day, and find thousands of things to argue about, but you know, I'm getting sick of it really, and it's not serving anyone any good. If one has doubts, then he should check it out himself.
I'll have a look at your other comments later ok.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 09 2014,23:59) Mike B. Just read rev.19.
He; is a BEING coming,and he is called the WORD of God.
He is not just breath.Or is He?wakeup.
Yes Wakeup,Revelation 19:13 is one of those few times that a living breathing being is METAPHORICALLY called “the Word of God”. He is called such because he is God's main SPOKESMAN – not because he was ever a LITERAL word that God spoke.
That same living breathing being is called God's Word in John 1:1, 1:14, and 1 John 1:1 as well. Hebrews 11:3 might be another verse that refers to this living breathing being – but it's hard to be sure.
On the other hand………
Jeremiah 23:36 KJV
…..ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God.……… it's clear to see that these “words of God” are NOT a living breathing being, but simply words or commands that God had spoken.
Do a search of the phrase “word of God” in the KJV, and see how many of them refer to a living breathing being, and how many of them refer simply to words that God had spoken.
Here are some of them:
[1Sa 9:27 KJV] [And] as they were going down to the end of the city, Samuel said to Saul, Bid the servant pass on before us, (and he passed on,) but stand thou still a while, that I may shew thee the word of God.
[Pro 30:5 KJV] Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
[Mar 7:13 KJV] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
[Luk 4:4 KJV] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
[Luk 5:1 KJV] And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,
[Luk 8:11 KJV] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
[Luk 8:21 KJV] And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
[Luk 11:28 KJV] But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
[Rev 20:4 KJV]……and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God…….
This last one makes it clear that Jesus, the “Word of God”, is something other than the literal “word of God” mentioned along with Jesus.
Wakeup, are you able to see that, in the verses above, the phrase “word of God” refers to literal words that God has spoken – and NOT to a living being?
If you are able to understand this, then you'll know that every “word of God” mentioned in the Bible does NOT refer to Jesus. The phrase only refers to Jesus, the Spokesman of God, a few times in scripture.
So when it says the heavens were created by “the word of God”, it does not refer to someone other than God creating the universe. It CAN'T refer to that, because if it did, then God Himself is NOT the one who created the universe.
Instead, when it says the heavens were created by “the word of God”, it simply means that God SPOKE the heavens into creation. Like when He said, “Let there be light”, and there was light. Similarly, He most likely said, “Let there be the heavens”, and there was the heavens.
But GOD is the one who brought the heavens and all other things into existence. It wasn't some other living breathing being who was with God. It was God Himself.
Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 10 2014,07:54) If his name is so important, and the NEW TESTAMENT, is what is preached to the gentiles, then why was the name Jehovah not mentioned once in there. 7000 times in the OLD TESTAMENT, and not once in the NT?
According to Gesenius' Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon, “the Hebrews….. either mislead by a false interpretation of certain laws, or else following some old superstition, regarded this name as so very holy, that it might not even be pronounced”.We don't know for sure when this practice started, so we don't know for sure if the very original Greek mss of the NT contained the divine name “Jehovah”.
That name IS in the oldest known fragment of the NT ever found. It was written, in Hebrew, in the midst of all the Greek words.
So did Jesus actually SPEAK the name “Jehovah” to his disciples, and the later scribes, following that old superstition, altered it to “Lord” when they copied the NT?
We may never know. But Jesus plainly tells God that he had made God's NAME known to those God had given him out of the world. He also asked God to glorify His NAME, and God said He HAD glorified it, and will do so again.
Anyway, all that was just for your information. The bottom line of this “divine name” discussion is this: If the divine NAME is in the ms, then translate that name into the English Bible. If the name is NOT in the ms, then DON'T translate that name into the English Bible.
It is clear that the name IS in the Hebrew OT (all mss) over 6500 times. So the OT should be translated into English with that divine NAME over 6500 times.
If the Hebrew word is “lord”, then translate as “lord”. If the word is “God”, then translate as “God”. If the word is “Jehovah”, then translate as “Jehovah”.
This really isn't rocket science. Nor does the fact that the name isn't in the NT mean that any translator should ERASE it from the OT.
When God gave Moses that name, He said it was His name FOREVER, and His memorial to ALL GENERATIONS.
Agreed?
Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 10 2014,07:54) I hear you Mike, but this all sounds like personal interpretation to me.
It's not interpretation in this case, journey. The FACT of the matter is that some old Greek mss have “son” in 1:18, and other ones (the OLDEST ones) have “god” in that verse.The KJV chose the “son” ms, and most newer English Bibles opt for a ms that has “god”. (It's possible, since the KJV was translated from much LATER mss, its scholars weren't even aware of the OLDER mss that had “god” in that verse. Most of these oldest mss were discovered long after the KJV was published.)
Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 10 2014,07:54) Each one stands alone having no faithfulness to their witness. And the NWT, is just another one of them.
That's a bold claim from someone who has yet to show me any serious flaw in the NWT. I gave you Gen 1:2, and still assert that they SHOULDN'T HAVE applied their own understanding of an “active force” into the Hebrew words.But remember that they have a footnote in Gen 1:2 that says:
“And . . . active force (spirit).”
Heb., weru′ach.
Besides being translated “spirit,” ru′ach is also translated “wind” and by other words that denote an invisible active force.
See 3:8 ftn, “Breezy part”; 8:1 ftn.
They covered their butts on it. And the KJV does this MANY times, journey. They print their best interpretation, with a footnote saying what the ACTUAL Hebrew or Greek says. It is a very common practice with all English translations.
Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 10 2014,07:54) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) If you personally prefer “only begotten son” in this verse, I can't prove you wrong.
It harmonises, with all the other scriptures.
It harmonizes with JOHN'S often used phrase, “only begotten Son”. John is the only one who called Jesus by that name…… and he did it quite a few times.And that is why the scholars believe that a later scribe CHANGED “god” to “son” in 1:18, because “son” harmonized better. But don't forget that the OLDER mss have “god”. So it would be easy to imagine a LATER scribe CHANGING “god” to “son” – so that it harmonized better with John's often used phrase.
But I'm okay with either translation. I can't fault either of them, and neither can you HONESTLY fault either of them.
Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 10 2014,07:54) I can't prove anything, other than the NWT does not harmonise. That I will state.
And I'm still waiting for you to show me WHERE the NWT doesn't harmonize. Empty words are just empty words, journey.Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 10 2014,07:54) Do you understand Mike, that I trust God, and when God said he preserved his Word, I believe him.
His REAL word IS preserved for us, journey. He has preserved it for us in the OLDER and BETTER Hebrew and Greek mss that we keep uncovering. We can easily see, by looking at the OLDEST mss, exactly where a later scribe CHANGED God's written word to suit his own preference.The KJV was translated from these LATER mss – the ones that had those CHANGES in them. If you want God's truth, you don't look to the oldest ENGLISH TRANSLATION…….. you look to the oldest HEBREW AND GREEK MANUSCRIPTS.
Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 10 2014,07:54) You don't believe in his promise,
you don't believe in his power….
Those aren't only empty words, but also hurtful, unsubstantiated lies.Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 10 2014,07:54) I could pick on the NWT all day, and find thousands of things to argue about, but you know, I'm getting sick of it really, and it's not serving anyone any good.
Actually, I don't think you can LEGITIMATELY pick on the NWT. And perhaps you're getting sick of it because you're having a hard time finding any major flaws in that translation.As for serving a purpose, it is serving MY purpose – which was to have you find out for yourself that those commonly accepted slams against the NWT are just more empty words.
It's become “politically correct” to deride the JWs, and their NWT. Lots of people jump on the bandwagon – without knowing one thing about the NWT. Are you one of those, journey? Or will you be the first on this site to put your money where your mouth is, and PROVE the NWT has “thousands of things” wrong with it?
Show me where it doesn't “harmonize”. Show me where it is “antichrist”. Show me where it “dishonors Jesus”.
Those are some of the claims you have made, right? Put your money where your mouth is. Either that, or apologize for speaking empty words about a wonderful translation of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 11 2014,09:24) Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 09 2014,23:59) Mike B. Just read rev.19.
He; is a BEING coming,and he is called the WORD of God.
He is not just breath.Or is He?wakeup.
Yes Wakeup,Revelation 19:13 is one of those few times that a living breathing being is METAPHORICALLY called “the Word of God”. He is called such because he is God's main SPOKESMAN – not because he was ever a LITERAL word that God spoke.
That same living breathing being is called God's Word in John 1:1, 1:14, and 1 John 1:1 as well. Hebrews 11:3 might be another verse that refers to this living breathing being – but it's hard to be sure.
On the other hand………
Jeremiah 23:36 KJV
…..ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God.……… it's clear to see that these “words of God” are NOT a living breathing being, but simply words or commands that God had spoken.
Do a search of the phrase “word of God” in the KJV, and see how many of them refer to a living breathing being, and how many of them refer simply to words that God had spoken.
Here are some of them:
[1Sa 9:27 KJV] [And] as they were going down to the end of the city, Samuel said to Saul, Bid the servant pass on before us, (and he passed on,) but stand thou still a while, that I may shew thee the word of God.
[Pro 30:5 KJV] Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
[Mar 7:13 KJV] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
[Luk 4:4 KJV] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
[Luk 5:1 KJV] And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,
[Luk 8:11 KJV] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
[Luk 8:21 KJV] And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
[Luk 11:28 KJV] But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
[Rev 20:4 KJV]……and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God…….
This last one makes it clear that Jesus, the “Word of God”, is something other than the literal “word of God” mentioned along with Jesus.
Wakeup, are you able to see that, in the verses above, the phrase “word of God” refers to literal words that God has spoken – and NOT to a living being?
If you are able to understand this, then you'll know that every “word of God” mentioned in the Bible does NOT refer to Jesus. The phrase only refers to Jesus, the Spokesman of God, a few times in scripture.
So when it says the heavens were created by “the word of God”, it does not refer to someone other than God creating the universe. It CAN'T refer to that, because if it did, then God Himself is NOT the one who created the universe.
Instead, when it says the heavens were created by “the word of God”, it simply means that God SPOKE the heavens into creation. Like when He said, “Let there be light”, and there was light. Similarly, He most likely said, “Let there be the heavens”, and there was the heavens.
But GOD is the one who brought the heavens and all other things into existence. It wasn't some other living breathing being who was with God. It was God Himself.
Mike B.All that is contradicting God saying.
***I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANOTHER***.
A spokesman is another.The same Word of God was speaking to all the prophets.
God speaking through his image being.
No man has heard the voice of God at anytime; Jesus said this.wakeup
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 10 2014,17:41)
Mike B.All that is contradicting God saying.
***I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANOTHER***.
A spokesman is another.
1. Where is it said in scripture that “the Word” has GOD'S glory? Where is it said that “Jesus” has GOD'S glory?Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 10 2014,17:41) No man has heard the voice of God at anytime; Jesus said this.
You are confused, Wakeup. Jesus told the Pharisees to whom he was speaking, “YOU have never heard God's voice”. He didn't say that NO ONE had ever heard God's voice.2. If Jesus was “the Word of God” while he was on earth, then WHOSE voice did the disciples hear speaking from heaven, saying, “This is my Son – listen to him” ?
(I also already showed you the scriptures in Exodus and Deuteronomy where the Israelites all heard God's voice speaking to them from Mount Horeb.)
Wakeup, please COMMENT on these two points I've just showed you, so I know that you are hearing me and adjusting your previous misunderstandings of scripture.
Also, would you please directly address my post from yesterday, and acknowledge for me that the phrase “word of God” in each of those scriptures I posted does NOT refer to a living breathing being?
Thanks.
Mike B.
Quote
1. Where is it said in scripture that “the Word” has GOD'S glory? Where is it said that “Jesus” has GOD'S glory?Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, ***and unto the Lamb*** for ever and ever.
***My glory will I not give to another***.
If the Lamb is ***another***;He would not have been giventhe glory of God.Quote
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 10 2014,17:41)
No man has heard the voice of God at anytime; Jesus said this.
You are confused, Wakeup. Jesus told the Pharisees to whom he was speaking, “YOU have never heard God's voice”. He didn't say that NO ONE had ever heard God's voice.True; He did not say no man. Only the man Jesus heard his voice.Therefore said He:you have never heard God's voice.
Who in your opinion has heard God's voice?
Because it was always God's image that spoke from the beinning.Quote .
2. If Jesus was “the Word of God” while he was on earth, then WHOSE voice did the disciples hear speaking from heaven, saying, “This is my Son – listen to him” ?Does God have lack of angels to send?
Quote
(I also already showed you the scriptures in Exodus and Deuteronomy where the Israelites all heard God's voice speaking to them from Mount Horeb.That was the image of God speaking;God's Word.
Allways God's word.
Let us make man— ;that was God's Word.Quote
Wakeup, please COMMENT on these two points I've just showed you, so I know that you are hearing me and adjusting your previous misunderstandings of scripture.Unless you believe that the Word of God is also His own image being. Brought forth in the beginning of creation,
You will not see the mystery. Because scripture says;its a mystery.wakeup.
Copied from Kerwin's thread:
Quote Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2014,12:36) You two are funny for me. 
You sit here DEFENDING the translation that took GOD'S name out of the Bible over 6500 times, but then bitch about the name of God's SERVANT being omitted just once!
That alone is a very suspicious statement Mike.
Not only did I tell you that the NIV was not a perfect version,
but I gave you an example of why I didn't like it. Sorry if this offends you.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2014,12:36) Which NAME is more important? The God who created you? Or His humble SERVANT Jesus Christ?
God is in charge of course, but why would you want me to not acknowledge or say something to the effect that Christ had nothing to do with it?
Are you anti-christ? Christ is my Lord, he was sent to be Lord over me. Not just me but you too.
Sorry if this offends you.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2014,12:36) You guys are too blind to even see that the REASON the NAME of Jehovah is omitted is because these translators want people to think of only one name when thinking of God Almighty. And the name they want people to think about is “Jesus Christ”. Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2014,12:36) In fact, the majority of Christians don't even know God has a name of His own. If you ask them the proper NAME of God, they'll tell you “Jesus”.
The majority of Christians call God “Father”, but a small sect call him Jehovah only.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2014,12:36) Satan has surely had his hand in all of this. Thank God for the JWs, and for all the others who chose to leave the divine proper name of God in the scriptures, instead of omitting it.
Your true colors are showing now. Why don't you join them, seeing you think they are the enlightened ones. Have you questioned their doctrine, or do you just accept that also?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2014,12:36) I was also cracking up to hear you guys saying, “through him – could be anybody”, and “They are out to get Christ Jesus out of the bible”.
Where did we say that?
Do you mean this;“J42.
Through him; him could be anybody.
Could be him the false prophet.wakeup.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2014,12:36) Why can't you use that same argument for the name of the God who created you? Because “the Lord” could also be anybody, since the scriptures are FULL OF various different lords. And why doesn't Wakeup say those same words about the “scribes and Pharisees” who worked so hard to get JEHOVAH out of the Bible?
Ask him.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2014,12:36) The bottom line is that however many times the Hebrew WRITERS of the scriptures wrote God's divine name, that's how many times that NAME should also be in the English translations.
What manuscripts, whose manuscripts? I asked you this before? Did God have nothing to do with the translations? Did he set us up for a fall?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2014,12:36) If the Greek text SAYS “Jesus”, then TRANSLATE AS “Jesus”. If the Hebrew text SAYS “YHWH”, then TRANSLATE AS “YHWH” (“Jehovah”, “Yahweh”, etc.)
Why not just keep it as “YHWH” to save all confusion?
Because the way God wants it read, is the way he delivered it to us. He has control over preserving his Word for US, so that we can seek him and trust everything he says.
We know our scriptures, and we've seen the differences.
Stay comfy in your nest. I'm not trying to kick you out, but if you ask me, all this is a distraction and no matter how much you try to rattle me with your worldly wisdom, I can say from a spiritual point of view, that it will hinder your spirit from growing fast.John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 11 2014,17:36) Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, ***and unto the Lamb*** for ever and ever. ***My glory will I not give to another***.
If the Lamb is ***another***;He would not have been given the glory of God.
What part of the scripture says it was GOD'S glory, Wakeup?In scripture, we can read about the glory of Solomon. Does the fact that Solomon had much glory mean it was GOD'S glory?
We can also read about Jesus having the glory of “the only begotten FROM the Father”. Does that sound like Jesus had GOD'S glory? Would the Father have the glory of an only begotten FROM the Father?
The Revelation scriptures you posted don't say anything about the Lamb OF God having GOD'S glory. It only says that both of them are worthy of much glory.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 11 2014,17:36) Who in your opinion has heard God's voice?
Because it was always God's image that spoke from the beginning.
Let's see…….. God spoke directly to Moses. He once spoke directly to Aaron and Miriam, to scold them. He spoke directly to the Israelites from Mount Horeb. And he spoke a couple of times to Jesus' disciples.Deuteronomy 4 KJV
12 And the LORD (Jehovah) spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD (Jehovah) spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
The Hebrew text says “Jehovah” spoke to them. But you say it was someone else?
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 11 2014,17:36) Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
2. If Jesus was “the Word of God” while he was on earth, then WHOSE voice did the disciples hear speaking from heaven, saying, “This is my Son – listen to him” ?Does God have lack of angels to send?
So God has more than one “Word”? And since the first “Word” was on earth at the time, God had a different “Word” do His speaking?2 Peter 1:17 NIV
He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”Peter thinks the voice from heaven was “God the Father”. You think an angel was calling Jesus “my Son”.
(Also notice that Jesus RECEIVED honor and glory FROM God the Father. The fact that Jesus HAS glory doesn't mean it is the Father's glory. In fact, we know it CAN'T be the Father's glory, because He said He would share His own glory with no one.)
Quote (journey @ 12:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2014,12:36) Which NAME is more important? The God who created you? Or His humble SERVANT Jesus Christ?
God is in charge of course, but why would you want me to not acknowledge or say something to the effect that Christ had nothing to do with it?
Are you anti-christ? Christ is my Lord, he was sent to be Lord over me. Not just me but you too.
Sorry if this offends you.
Hi journey,I brought the whole post over to this thread, in case we want to refer back to it later. But for now, let's just deal with this part that I quoted.
First of all, I love Jesus Christ, my Lord and my King, every bit as much as you do. I am by no means “antichrist”. But I also know what “christ” means. Do you? The word is used dozens of times in the scriptures, and not just for Jesus. King David was one of God's christs. So was Solomon. Even King Saul was a christ of God.
The word simply means “one who has been anointed by God”. Jesus Christ cannot be God Himself, because he is one of the ones God anointed.
Jesus has, since his very creation, been a servant of God. He is not equal to God. He and God do not have the same glory. He is the Lamb, Priest, Prophet, Messiah (the Hebrew word for “Christ”, which also means “anointed one”), Son, Spokesman (Word), and Holy Servant OF God.
According to Jesus himself, our God is also his God. We and Jesus have the very same God who created us.
So it's not that I don't consider Jesus worthy of a GREAT amount of honor and glory…… it's more a matter of knowing that the SERVANT doesn't deserve as much honor and glory as the MASTER who created him, and sent him to be our sacrificial Lamb.
Jehovah is the one who sacrificed something that was His own…… not Jesus. The life of Jesus was a GIFT from God in the first place, just like our lives are. So God is our ultimate Savior, because HE is the one who sacrificed His most cherished possession for us.
And I thought it was so ironic to see you and Wakeup having that back and forth rant about the name “Jesus” not being in ONE verse in the Bible……… when you two seem to be okay with the God OF Jesus having His name omitted from the Bible over 6500 times.
It's like you think the name “Jesus” is more important than the name of the God who actually created us and Jesus.
Why do you guys take such a bold stand for Jesus, going as far as to IMAGINE that certain English translations dishonor him, but you are completely okay with the dishonor given to the one who created you?
I'm baffled.
Quote But I also know what “christ” means. Do you? The word is used dozens of times in the scriptures, and not just for Jesus. King David was one of God's christs. So was Solomon. Even King Saul was a christ of God.
Hi Mike
According to my knowledge, Christ means “Messiah”. The Jews were waiting for their Messiah. I know King David was never referred to as “Christ” as they were not expecting him to be “the one”. Same with King Solomon. Both men were favoured by God, yes, but to call them “Christ”, I never heard of that.Quote The word simply means “one who has been anointed by God”. Jesus Christ cannot be God Himself, because he is one of the ones God anointed.
This is just another example of “bringing Christ down”. He is just like “David” and “Solomon”, no big deal.
Well Mike, he stands out far above the rest. David sinned against the Lord, and so did Solomon. No sin was found in Christ. He was perfect, unblemished. In total obedience, and given full measure of the holy spirit.Quote Jesus has, since his very creation, been a servant of God. He is not equal to God.
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:Think about this.
If God sent Jesus Christ, the Messiah they were waiting for to bear light (truth) to them, and God said “This is my beloved Son, hear ye him”, then wouldn't you say that by God giving Christ all authority to act on his behalf, then doesn't it make him equal for the purpose of giving salvation?
Does Jesus, holding the keys of death and hell give any sort of indication that he has the authority to judge also? Doesn't this make him equal?
What about Jesus giving having the authority of giving the holy spirit also? Doesn't this make him equal?
God is making him equal, because God says “act on my behalf” Whatever you decide Son, is according to my righteousness, so I trust you.
This all must happen until Jesus is subjected back to God. After all is accomplished.Matthew 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Quote He and God do not have the same glory. He is the Lamb, Priest, Prophet, Messiah (the Hebrew word for “Christ”, which also means “anointed one”), Son, Spokesman (Word), and Holy Servant OF God. John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth
Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Quote According to Jesus himself, our God is also his God. We and Jesus have the very same God who created us.
Yes, agree.Quote So it's not that I don't consider Jesus worthy of a GREAT amount of honor and glory…… it's more a matter of knowing that the SERVANT doesn't deserve as much honor and glory as the MASTER who created him, and sent him to be our sacrificial Lamb.
You are not alone. The Jews hated this also.
If you don't consider what the man Jesus Christ did for us, by laying down his life, is worthy of just as much glory as God deserves, then that is your choice. God has glorified him, and in Christ, God is glorified.
If we glorify Christ, then we automatically glorify God, because God sent him.Quote Jehovah is the one who sacrificed something that was His own…… not Jesus. The life of Jesus was a GIFT from God in the first place, just like our lives are. So God is our ultimate Savior, because HE is the one who sacrificed His most cherished possession for us.
Yes agreed, but don't take for granted what Christ accomplished. Although he was the Son of God, and full of the holy spirit, he still felt emotion, just like us, and he felt fear. He was so afraid of what was coming that he was sweating blood. Yet he went through it, despite that fear, because he knew it was his Father's will. An example for us.Quote It's like you think the name “Jesus” is more important than the name of the God who actually created us and Jesus.
Mike, it's comments like these, that make me realise why you have been led down a different path.
Just stop and think about what you are saying for a moment.
Would it be possible for you to take a King James bible (Not NKJ) but the one with all the thee's and thou's, and read starting from the gospels. If you read with a pure heart, I can almost guarantee that you will retract your statement.
Can you do this for me please? Just take a break and read?Quote Why do you guys take such a bold stand for Jesus, going as far as to IMAGINE that certain English translations dishonor him, but you are completely okay with the dishonor given to the one who created you?
Please Mike, read my statement above, you will then understand if the spirit speaks to you.Quote I'm baffled.
Please read first then come back and tell me if you are still baffled?MikeB.
Quote What part of the scripture says it was GOD'S glory, Wakeup? In scripture, we can read about the glory of Solomon. Does the fact that Solomon had much glory mean it was GOD'S glory?
We can also read about Jesus having the glory of “the only begotten FROM the Father”. Does that sound like Jesus had GOD'S glory? Would the Father have the glory of an only begotten FROM the Father?
The Revelation scriptures you posted don't say anything about the Lamb OF God having GOD'S glory. It only says that both of them are worthy of much glory.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 11 2014,17:36)
Who in your opinion has heard God's voice?
Because it was always God's image that spoke from the beginning.Let's see…….. God spoke directly to Moses. He once spoke directly to Aaron and Miriam, to scold them. He spoke directly to the Israelites from Mount Horeb. And he spoke a couple of times to Jesus' disciples.
Deuteronomy 4 KJV
12 And the LORD (Jehovah) spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD (Jehovah) spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
The Hebrew text says “Jehovah” spoke to them. But you say it was someone else?
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 11 2014,17:36)
Quote (mikeboll @ 64)2. If Jesus was “the Word of God” while he was on earth, then WHOSE voice did the disciples hear speaking from heaven, saying, “This is my Son – listen to him” ?
Does God have lack of angels to send?
So God has more than one “Word”? And since the first “Word” was on earth at the time, God had a different “Word” do His speaking?
2 Peter 1:17 NIV
He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”Peter thinks the voice from heaven was “God the Father”. You think an angel was calling Jesus “my Son”.
(Also notice that Jesus RECEIVED honor and glory FROM God the Father. The fact that Jesus HAS glory doesn't mean it is the Father's glory. In fact, we know it CAN'T be the Father's glory, because He said He would share His own glory with no one.)
1).You should be able to decern the scriptures,but it seems that you dont.
God was speaking Of His glory and of the lamb.
What is men's glory?
Compared to God's glory?
All the glory of this world is no comparison
to God's glory.2). God always speaks through His living Word;always.
Sometimes The Word send's His angels to speak on His
behalf.Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and *signified it* by his angel unto his servant John:
1. From God.
2.To His Word/Jesus.
3. Jesus send His angel.
4.To John.
5. From John to all the churches.
6.And to all interested seekers.wakeup.
One for journey…………..
Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 14 2014,08:49) Hi Mike
According to my knowledge, Christ means “Messiah”. The Jews were waiting for their Messiah. I know King David was never referred to as “Christ” as they were not expecting him to be “the one”. Same with King Solomon. Both men were favoured by God, yes, but to call them “Christ”, I never heard of that.Here's one of the many. This time the word refers to Saul:
1 Samuel 12
1 And Samuel said unto all Israel, Behold, I have hearkened unto your voice in all that ye said unto me, and have made a king over you.2 And now, behold, the king walketh before you: and I am old and grayheaded; and, behold, my sons are with you: and I have walked before you from my childhood unto this day.
3 Behold, here I am: witness against me before the LORD, and before his anointed: whose ox have I taken? or whose ass have I taken? or whom have I defrauded? whom have I oppressed? or of whose hand have I received any bribe to blind mine eyes therewith? and I will restore it you.
The Hebrew word translated as “his anointed” in verse 3 above is the same Hebrew word translated as “Messiah” other places.
Samuel was standing there in the presence of Jehovah (not “the LORD”) and Jehovah's Messiah, Saul. In the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT (the LXX), Samuel said he was standing there in the presence of the Lord and His christ – because “christ” is the Greek word for the Hebrew word “messiah”.
Would you like to see more of them?
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 14 2014,12:20) 1).You should be able to decern the scriptures,but it seems that you dont. God was speaking Of His glory and of the lamb.
What is men's glory?
Compared to God's glory?
All the glory of this world is no comparison
to God's glory.
……… and one for Wakeup:None of what you wrote there tells me that the servant OF God, Jesus Christ, has God's own glory.
Who has more glory: A man? Or the sacrificial lamb that the man slaughtered as a sacrifice to God?
I'm sure you know the answer to that one. So take that common sense answer, and apply it to God and His sacrificial lamb.
Mike B.
Jesus calls Himself servant only because he was send by
His Father,and he obeyed His Father.
But he came as the only begotten son of the Father.
And is infact God's own Word before born on earth.Mike: you are going further and further from the truth.
wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2014,11:21) One for journey………….. Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 14 2014,08:49) Hi Mike
According to my knowledge, Christ means “Messiah”. The Jews were waiting for their Messiah. I know King David was never referred to as “Christ” as they were not expecting him to be “the one”. Same with King Solomon. Both men were favoured by God, yes, but to call them “Christ”, I never heard of that.Here's one of the many. This time the word refers to Saul:
1 Samuel 12
1 And Samuel said unto all Israel, Behold, I have hearkened unto your voice in all that ye said unto me, and have made a king over you.2 And now, behold, the king walketh before you: and I am old and grayheaded; and, behold, my sons are with you: and I have walked before you from my childhood unto this day.
3 Behold, here I am: witness against me before the LORD, and before his anointed: whose ox have I taken? or whose ass have I taken? or whom have I defrauded? whom have I oppressed? or of whose hand have I received any bribe to blind mine eyes therewith? and I will restore it you.
The Hebrew word translated as “his anointed” in verse 3 above is the same Hebrew word translated as “Messiah” other places.
Samuel was standing there in the presence of Jehovah (not “the LORD”) and Jehovah's Messiah, Saul. In the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT (the LXX), Samuel said he was standing there in the presence of the Lord and His christ – because “christ” is the Greek word for the Hebrew word “messiah”.
Would you like to see more of them?
Mike B.Are you saying that there are many, many messiahs?
Messiah means Deliverer.
Prophets and apostles are the anointed.
Anointed with the Holy spirit.
Where are you going Mike?wakeup.
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