- This topic has 933 replies, 47 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 10 2010,04:17) Hi brothers Pierre, Ed J and Kerwin,
Sorry I had offended you by my offencive comments on Bible. But I am only questioning its inerrancy and inspiration. Yes inerrancy and inspiration are much needed for our salvation as our brother Kerwin is interested. I find Bible much errant and uninspiring by reading the scriptures. It is filled with myths and fables than truth. Take for example the story of Jesus' parents escaping to Egypt but the writer of Matthew forgotten about Jesus' cousin John who was also of two years age at that time whereas Luke ignores this story all together. Luke says Jesus' parents were from Nazareth than Bethlehem as alleged by Matthew. Mark could not mention proper name of high priest at the time of David's escape from Saul. Can God be behind such silly mistakes of these writers? What happened to those saints who were alleged to be resurrected from the dead before Jesus as claimed by Matthew which no other writer noticed all together? The so called personal witness, John never heard a word that Jesus uttered on the cross saying “Eli Eli Lama Sabaktani/Eloi Eloi Lama Sabaktani” as claimed by other three. He cleverly leaves out that to avoid his Jesus to be victorious who could only utter “It is finished” These writers had different agendah behind their writings than uttering God's inspired words. The list goes on and on…I don't blame God for these human errant writers who framed the Gospels out of their traditions and oral stories that were developed for decades after their alleged happenings. No two writers agree on many incidents of Jesus' biography even if they copied from each other. Know the reason why?I am sorry brothers this is the fate of my religion. It could not give me proper reasons for all such errors and contradictions.
Yet I wish peace to you
Adam
Adam
well i feel sad that you believe this ,because to me there relly is no problem with scriptures and all what you mention are not error or miss quoted or miss translation,those are the perfect words ,and can be answered .the existance of the scriptures have but one goal,make Christ known to the world of men.so he can be saved.
Pierre
Adam,
I believe the freedom from errors and untruths is only necessary as regards the message of salvation. I believe whether Jesus does or doesn’t have long hair or any such controversy is unimportant, even if written in scripture. I am not even sure the spirit regards accuracy in such things as much as that the inspired person speak their honest observation.
Take the Eli Eli Lama Sabaktani/Eloi Eloi Lama Sabaktani situation sounds like a probably confusion over languages that arose later as it is a mixture of Aramaic and Hebrew. They are probable all incorrect and Jesus a man being badly tortured stated “Eli eli lama azavtani” which is Hebrew from what I have heard. Maybe instead he mixed languages because of his duress, the eyewitnesses were confused by his pain changed voice, or the scribes erred. Whatever the case it does not significantly effect the message of salvation and so becomes a gray issue of no real importance beyond solving intellectual curiosity.
In addition as Gene points out two eye witnesses to the same event can give two variations of the same account that contradict in some ways.
I need to verify the Hebrew translation.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 10 2010,00:26) Adam……….Brother, i do agree with you that thee is many errors in scripture, but no two people can describe the same event the same way in nearly all cases so some allowances must be made , that is why it says the ” The Sum of God word is truth” we do need to put them together to draw a proper picture, that i will agree, but as the saying goes you don't through out the baby with the wash. So we need to properly determine and divide the word of truth. I think we can With GOD'S Spirit of Truth guiding us brother. When you bring things into question it shows the Spirit of Truth working in You and it behooves you to help enlighten us also brother. Don't let any of those quires cause you to Lose FAITH in GOD and Jesus Christ our Lord Brother, that is the main thing. IMO peace and love to you and yours Adam…………………………..gene
Hi brother Gene,
I know it gives frustration to you seeing your brother is going astray. You know brother the more I read scriptures the more I am involved in criticism of their unreliability. I don't know whether I can retain my faith after so much research on the scriptures. But I am honest in searching the scriptures to find truth. I can also see frustration for many here on different topics like Pre-existence especially for Sis Irene as she repeatedly quotes a particular set of verses to show her agony. I pity such brothers and sisters who believe that our Bible is inspired and consistent in its doctrines. I can also say that even unitarianism could not answer my queries on these complicated doctrines of Christianity. The problem here is that our Bible is a compilation of different books from different individuals and communities. They had different opinions all together. We are assuming that God inspired them all. No brother no. This is the blunder we are committing always in taking for grant of such beliefs. It's not true. Each Gospel or book is different from its doctrines and concepts on Christology. The result is we find deviation in our Christian theology. Therefore we have Trinity, Pre-existence, Gnosticism, Jewish Christianity etc. For example please take Colossians 1 where the writer claims Jesus was the first born of all creation as well as through him God created this universe. So all JW/pre-existence believers claim Jesus was created first by God and through him God created every thing. The same was supported by Rev 3:14. Another place in Rom 8:3 Paul quotes Jesus came in the likeness of our sinful flesh which means he had not inherited our true sinful flesh but only in the likeness, the same was interpreted by Gnostics to suit their claims that Jesus only appeared as human but not really becoming one. Another example of 2 Cori 13:14 the famous Christian benediction formula along with Matt 28:19 taken over by Trinitarians to suit their doctrine. The list goes on and on. I find every where one can find his own doctrines in our Bible. We can not blame them because it is the fate of our Bible. After so much research I come to these conclusions. You may not agree with me. I have gone through all types of Christian doctrines with open mind through their websites and books. Therefore I now turn towards skepticism which can only give me peace at this moment from my unending struggle over my religious beliefs.I am sorry once again for frustration you.
With love and peace
Your brother…….AdamAdam…………You are not frustration Me brother at all, I know what you are saying and do agree in Part with You, But like is said we have to sort though all scriptures and draw our conclusion and i believe that means sorting our improper wording because as you know Greek is a most confusing language and many word can be presented in many different way , But with the Spirit of Truth in you (IT) guides you thinking even to be skeptical that is not wrong to be that way I also am Skeptical and do not take all scripture at face value but try to bring them against other scripture that may show the very opposite of what is begin said or portrayed by others, but Adam there is enough in scripture for us to draw a pretty good conclusion on most of the important things.
Now we should not put our salvation in the hands of scriptures but in the Living GOD Who would Have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. My faith is not in scriptures but in the Living GOD as i am sure yours is also. Keep you doubts working and bring them up to us , if nothing else it helps us to think and perhaps see things in a different light, You are supplying a work Here brother, and i have seen you truthfulness many times as so has others Here, I know you had the Spirit of GOD years ago because of you sound reasonings. Don't get discouraged by all the flack being thrown around here Jest Let the Spirit of GOD work in you and through , it helps us all Brother.
With much love to you and your ADAM…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 10 2010,15:28) Adam…………You are not frustration Me brother at all, I know what you are saying and do agree in Part with You, But like is said we have to sort though all scriptures and draw our conclusion and i believe that means sorting our improper wording because as you know Greek is a most confusing language and many word can be presented in many different way , But with the Spirit of Truth in you (IT) guides you thinking even to be skeptical that is not wrong to be that way I also am Skeptical and do not take all scripture at face value but try to bring them against other scripture that may show the very opposite of what is begin said or portrayed by others, but Adam there is enough in scripture for us to draw a pretty good conclusion on most of the important things. Now we should not put our salvation in the hands of scriptures but in the Living GOD Who would Have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. My faith is not in scriptures but in the Living GOD as i am sure yours is also. Keep you doubts working and bring them up to us , if nothing else it helps us to think and perhaps see things in a different light, You are supplying a work Here brother, and i have seen you truthfulness many times as so has others Here, I know you had the Spirit of GOD years ago because of you sound reasonings. Don't get discouraged by all the flack being thrown around here Jest Let the Spirit of GOD work in you and through , it helps us all Brother.
With much love to you and your ADAM…………………………..gene
Oh! my loving brother I like your persistence in encouraging me. I thank you very much for such consoling words of yours. Yes you are right in saying- by written word we can not earn our salvation but by putting trust in the living God. These are the conclusions which I also got from my research. I often used to quote earlier in my posts on this that the writers of Bible expressed their personal experiences and opinions about God and Jesus. They were not inspired really by the spirit of God which could be inerrant. I always compare them like todays' evangelical preachers who often preach the sermons emotionally out of their experience and emotions than led by the spirit of God as we often assume to be. I see the errors and contradictions were due to these human biased authors of Bible who were having different agendah behind their writing to prove their ideas and convictions than the words of the Holy spirit as misclaimed by many Christians. Therefore there is possibility of diversity than unity in framing the doctrines of Christianity. The sum of creed of Christianity may be true as you quoted above. But some times it is dubious to claim that way since many central doctrines of Christianity are divergent than united like the person and nature of Jesus, divinity of Jesus, the self sacrifice of Jesus originally was not atonement for sin but as a martyrdom as the Jewish Christians claimed etc. If at all there is living God I think He can lead even now without the so called divergent written scriptures which are filled with myths, stories and with personal biased opinions of those writers which suited their community. I am still praying to God to guide me into truth in His own way. Hope things are ok soon.Thanks and love to you
AdamQuote (kerwin @ Nov. 10 2010,14:51) Adam, I believe the freedom from errors and untruths is only necessary as regards the message of salvation. I believe whether Jesus does or doesn’t have long hair or any such controversy is unimportant, even if written in scripture. I am not even sure the spirit regards accuracy in such things as much as that the inspired person speak their honest observation.
Take the Eli Eli Lama Sabaktani/Eloi Eloi Lama Sabaktani situation sounds like a probably confusion over languages that arose later as it is a mixture of Aramaic and Hebrew. They are probable all incorrect and Jesus a man being badly tortured stated “Eli eli lama azavtani” which is Hebrew from what I have heard. Maybe instead he mixed languages because of his duress, the eyewitnesses were confused by his pain changed voice, or the scribes erred. Whatever the case it does not significantly effect the message of salvation and so becomes a gray issue of no real importance beyond solving intellectual curiosity.
In addition as Gene points out two eye witnesses to the same event can give two variations of the same account that contradict in some ways.
I need to verify the Hebrew translation.
Hi brother Kerwin,
Some times I laugh my self hearing such words of yours quoted above. Who were these so called witnesses you mentioned above? Three Gospels say that all the Apostles deserted Jesus at the time of his turmoil. But the alleged beloved disciple who claimed to have closely witnessed his master's agony never quoted a word about Jesus uttering such words of agony. His Jesus was calm and confident who could utter only “It is finished”. I can't rely on these unreliable witnesses as quoted above. What can you expect from the unreliable writers on the concepts of salvation of mankind?
I am sorry to say that..
AdamQuote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,09:21) Adam, Im so sorry if it may seem to you I have changed, in the way I speak, compared to the other times.
I have feelings for people sometimes, and I pray for help…to help, and I felt that with you, and I still do.
But there are different times for different things. Right now, you have questions, which I cant answer, so I guess I may seem different…thinking more. But Adam, im finding my own answers too.
I (now) believe Jesus – before being Jesus – was an Angel being. It makes more sense to me. And untill now nothing did make sense, and iv been believing all types of things, since about 5 years ago. But Adam, thats where I have arrived at. I feel comfortable with that, so I need to stick with it.
I hope you are feeling ok Adam, and I hope you are feeling more at peace. How are you feeling ?
Hi Sis,
I appreciate your honesty. But I don't blame you for such personal convictions or opinions of yours. As you said earlier we are all different individuals so have different ideas and convictions. Nothing wrong in that as long as we are not forcing others to accept our views.Thanks a lot. I am quite well by now. I leave rest to God.
With love….. your brother
AdamAdam, just keep your faith strong. Know the love you first had, return to that. Can you think what it was like at first for you ? How things can change. Effected by outside influences always. Life and stressful things happening can also take us away. Keep yourself clean from that, spend time praying and asking God, or just in silence with God…ask for the good Spirit to be in you, and to fill you with peace and calm and love and joy, and ask God to lead you and your thoughts, to lead you into truth. To be with you.
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 09 2010,21:17) Hi Ed J, I find Bible much errant and uninspiring by reading the scriptures. It is filled with myths and fables than truth.
1) Take for example the story of Jesus' parents escaping to Egypt but the writer of Matthew forgotten about Jesus' cousin John who was also of two years age at that time whereas Luke ignores this story all together. Luke says Jesus' parents were from Nazareth than Bethlehem as alleged by Matthew. Mark could not mention proper name of high priest at the time of David's escape from Saul.
2) Can God be behind such silly mistakes of these writers?
3) What happened to those saints who were alleged to be resurrected from the dead before Jesus as claimed by Matthew which no other writer noticed all together?
4) The so called personal witness, John never heard a word that Jesus uttered on the cross saying “Eli Eli Lama Sabaktani/Eloi Eloi Lama Sabaktani” as claimed by other three.
5) John also cleverly leaves out that to avoid his Jesus to be victorious who could only utter “It is finished” These writers had different agendah behind their writings than uttering God's inspired words. The list goes on and on…I don't blame God for these human errant writers who framed the Gospels out of their traditions and oral stories that were developed for decades after their alleged happenings. No two writers agree on many incidents of Jesus' biography even if they copied from each other. Know the reason why?
I am sorry brothers this is the fate of my religion. It could not give me proper reasons for all such errors and contradictions.
Yet I wish peace to you
Adam
Hi Adam,I will address all your questions here.
Please excuse me as I will separate them,
so we can further discuss them in an order.1) According to Matthew: Herod decided to kill all the children
(2 and under) in Bethlehem, because of the wise men's report.
But Jesus lived in Galilee, not in Bethlehem. So if Herod would have
tracked them down, he would have found that they had moved.
So John the Baptist was in no danger whatsoever.2) These silly mistakes as you call them PROVES the authenticity “of a Scripture”!
3) Likewise what is mentioned of Lazarus, what did he say death was like?
The focus of the “Gospel” writers is “Jesus”, so no wonder there is not much mentioned of them.4) Those words point to Psalm 22:1, and as you know there were no number references at that time.
Since John was reported to be at the cross during Jesus' crucifixion, he might have understood the meaning.
Plus: He may also have been protecting Jesus from ridicule, because it may portray Jesus as being weak.5)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (gollamudi @ Nov. 09 2010,21:17) Hi Ed J, I find Bible much errant and uninspiring by reading the scriptures. It is filled with myths and fables than truth.
1) Take for example the story of Jesus' parents escaping to Egypt but the writer of Matthew forgotten about Jesus' cousin John who was also of two years age at that time whereas Luke ignores this story all together. Luke says Jesus' parents were from Nazareth than Bethlehem as alleged by Matthew. Mark could not mention proper name of high priest at the time of David's escape from Saul.
2) Can God be behind such silly mistakes of these writers?
3) What happened to those saints who were alleged to be resurrected from the dead before Jesus as claimed by Matthew which no other writer noticed all together?
4) The so called personal witness, John never heard a word that Jesus uttered on the cross saying “Eli Eli Lama Sabaktani/Eloi Eloi Lama Sabaktani” as claimed by other three.
5) John also cleverly leaves out that to avoid his Jesus to be victorious who could only utter “It is finished” These writers had different agendah behind their writings than uttering God's inspired words.
6) The list goes on and on…
7) I don't blame God for these human errant writers who framed the Gospels out of their traditions and oral stories that were developed for decades after their alleged happenings. No two writers agree on many incidents of Jesus' biography even if they copied from each other. Know the reason why?
8) I am sorry brothers this is the fate of my religion. It could not give me proper reasons for all such errors and contradictions.
Yet I wish peace to you
Adam
Shalom BrotherAdam,I will address all your questions here.
Please excuse me as I will separate them,
so we can further discuss them in an order.1) According to Matthew: Herod decided to kill all the children
(2 and under) in Bethlehem, because of the wise men's report.
But Jesus lived in Galilee, not in Bethlehem. So if Herod would have
tracked Jesus' family down, he would have found that they had moved.
So “John the Baptist” (Jesus' cousin) was in no real danger comparatively.2) These silly mistakes as you call them PROVES the authenticity “of a Scripture”!
3) Likewise what is mentioned of Lazarus, what did Lazarus say death was like?
The focus of the “Gospel” writers is “Jesus”, so no not much mentioned of others.4) Those words point to Psalm 22:1, and as you know there were no number references at that time.
Since John was reported to be at the cross during Jesus' crucifixion, John might have understood this.
Plus: He may also have been protecting Jesus from ridicule, because it may portray Jesus as being weak.5) Once again this also PROVES the authenticity of their testimony, irregardless of their individual motives.
We are not robots, only recording FACTS; we also give interpretive meanings to what we experience!
That does not negate any inspired words we may all speak! (Mark 13:11 / Luke 21:15 / Matt.10:20)6) Please continue with your list! I will address each and every point; Brother Adam!
7) These differences PROVES that they DIDN'T COPY FROM EACH OTHER!
8) Don't worry Brother Adam, I will help you. (Daniel 11:34)
B'Shem
YHVH
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (gollamudi @ Sep. 10 2010,18:01) Hi brother Ed J,
As per your estimation of Jesus' birth as man he can claim only 25% from the tribe of Judah. If he is 50% of Holy Spirit he was not pure human like you and me who are 100%. (1)How can God be Father without becoming husband first if you claim Holy Spirit causing 50% for Jesus' sonship? (2)How can God be husband of some woman who was already betrothed to another? (3)Is there any proof for your logic of 25% Levite (4)and 25% Judah as per your estimation above? (5)What was the necessity of Virgin Birth of Jesus? (6)Could Jesus be counted sinless as per the so called Virgin Birth even by considering his birth without human male involvement? (7)Was Mary sinless? (8)How can her child be sinless?…(9)so on and so forth..These are questions run through my mind when I read the Virgin Birth narrations in Gospels of Matthew and Luke. So far I could not get proper answers for questions.
Adam
Shalom Brother Adam,I'm bringing these answers back up as well, because your soul is troubled.
Anything further you want to discuss in any of these questions here?
I want you to be sure of “Our YHVH” and his word, “The Bible”!
I'm glad you are reaching out to us in you time of need!1) Are you suggesting God got to “Mary” first?
2) Hosea 2:16
3) Luke 1:5 / Luke 1:36
4) Luke 3:23-31
5) 1Corinthians 15:22
6) Yea
7) Matt.7:1
8) Leviticus 18:5
9) Matt.7:7 / 2Tm.2:13B'Shem
YHVH
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi brother Ed J,
Thanks for your replies to my queries. Infact you have put smiles on my face. But I can't agree those logics of yours to prove Bible as word of God. To correct you Matthew did not say Galilee was his parents abode but Bethlehem which was also the place of John his cousin's place (as per Luke). I can accept your logics if you say all those books of Bible are of mere human origin but not from God.
Thanks and Shalom to you
AdamQuote (shimmer @ Nov. 10 2010,17:25) Adam, just keep your faith strong. Know the love you first had, return to that. Can you think what it was like at first for you ? How things can change. Effected by outside influences always. Life and stressful things happening can also take us away. Keep yourself clean from that, spend time praying and asking God, or just in silence with God…ask for the good Spirit to be in you, and to fill you with peace and calm and love and joy, and ask God to lead you and your thoughts, to lead you into truth. To be with you.
That's best advice I think.
Thanks and much love to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Nov. 11 2010,01:59) Hi brother Ed J,
Thanks for your replies to my queries. Infact you have put smiles on my face. But I can't agree those logics of yours to prove Bible as word of God. To correct you Matthew did not say Galilee was his parents abode but Bethlehem which was also the place of John his cousin's place (as per Luke). I can accept your logics if you say all those books of Bible are of mere human origin but not from God.
Thanks and Shalom to you
Adam
Adami think you have listen to, to many books that wear down the scriptures and you have so open your ears to the devil,
this for a time ad inflicted me to,but then i start from scratch,
but remember the scriptures are the word of God give to the prophets and the saints for us today.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 10 2010,19:10) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 11 2010,01:59) Hi brother Ed J,
Thanks for your replies to my queries. Infact you have put smiles on my face. But I can't agree those logics of yours to prove Bible as word of God. To correct you Matthew did not say Galilee was his parents abode but Bethlehem which was also the place of John his cousin's place (as per Luke). I can accept your logics if you say all those books of Bible are of mere human origin but not from God.
Thanks and Shalom to you
Adam
Adami think you have listen to, to many books that wear down the scriptures and you have so open your ears to the devil,
this for a time ad inflicted me to,but then i start from scratch,
but remember the scriptures are the word of God give to the prophets and the saints for us today.
Pierre
Hi brother Pierre,
Thanks for your observation on me. Infact there is no devil as per our O.T. The concept of personal devil came only in the N.T scriptures which is new to Jewish scriptures where satan is only an adversary which can be God, a fellow brother or an angel who could work as a servant of God as in the case of Job's story. If satan is also the servant of God let him work on me as per the will and wish of God to trouble me with all scriptural confusion. I am ready for the battle.
Thanks and peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Nov. 11 2010,02:21) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 10 2010,19:10) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 11 2010,01:59) Hi brother Ed J,
Thanks for your replies to my queries. Infact you have put smiles on my face. But I can't agree those logics of yours to prove Bible as word of God. To correct you Matthew did not say Galilee was his parents abode but Bethlehem which was also the place of John his cousin's place (as per Luke). I can accept your logics if you say all those books of Bible are of mere human origin but not from God.
Thanks and Shalom to you
Adam
Adami think you have listen to, to many books that wear down the scriptures and you have so open your ears to the devil,
this for a time ad inflicted me to,but then i start from scratch,
but remember the scriptures are the word of God give to the prophets and the saints for us today.
Pierre
Hi brother Pierre,
Thanks for your observation on me. Infact there is no devil as per our O.T. The concept of personal devil came only in the N.T scriptures which is new to Jewish scriptures where satan is only an adversary which can be God, a fellow brother or an angel who could work as a servant of God as in the case of Job's story. If satan is also the servant of God let him work on me as per the will and wish of God to trouble me with all scriptural confusion. I am ready for the battle.
Thanks and peace to you
Adam
Adamyea, there was only break the law or not.
but ,if a person listen to much on a negative way then he may not be able to see the truth,this is what i meant.
many people have different views on God and his word ,but it is our will to want to learn and understand what he wants from us.with his help of cause.Pierre
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 10 2010,18:59) Hi brother Ed J,
Thanks for your replies to my queries. Infact you have put smiles on my face. But I can't agree those logics of yours to prove Bible as word of God. To correct you Matthew did not say Galilee was his parents abode but Bethlehem which was also the place of John his cousin's place (as per Luke). I can accept your logics if you say all those books of Bible are of mere human origin but not from God.
Thanks and Shalom to you
Adam
Hi Adam,Thank you!
I didn't say Matthew said or implied that.
I said: Herod may have believed that, based on the wise men's testimony.
Matthew does not specify where the children were killed, and since the other Gospel writers
don't mention it, it was probably local and probably in Bethlehem, because of the prophecy in Micah:5:2.Where does Matthew say Jesus, Jesus' mother, Joseph abode but Bethlehem?
Luke 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth,
into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem;
(because he was of the house and lineage of David:)God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgAdam,
They abandoned him only during his arrest and trial but were witnesses with the multitude when he was crucified if I understand the event. They may not have let it be known that Jesus was their teacher though Jesus acknowledged the one he put as caregiver to his mother. There was also converts after the event, including most likely at least one guard.
Be careful to avoid the spirit of faultfinding, as John clearly states that Jesus’ mother and two of his disciples were standing near enough the cross to hear Jesus speak, John 19:25-29. The unnamed disciple was probably John.
Jesus crucifixion is relevant to the message but the details of that crucifixion that don’t fulfill scripture are not relevant either. Trusting the eye witnesses and reporters to give honest accounts is.
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 10 2010,20:09) Where does Matthew say Jesus, Jesus' mother, Joseph abode but Bethlehem?
But Matthew has Joseph’s family living in Bethlehem (Matt 2:1,11) for up to two years after the birth of Jesus (Matt 2:16)! And after the Magi leave, Joseph is warned in a dream to flee to Egypt and stay there until Herod died (Matt. 2:15). After Herod died, Joseph was told in a dream to return to the land of Israel, and he headed for his home in Bethlehem of Judea. But since he was afraid to go there, he settled in Nazareth (Matt. 2:21-23), for the first time!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
