Virgin birth

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2009,08:55)

Hi TT, Jesus is the eternal High Priest unto God. He is not also that God. He is our mediator with God. He does not mediate with himself. Trinity is an offensive human addition to the written truth

Nick,
As usual you missed the point. Gene said that it is God who offered the sacrifices. So by Gene's own rule our High Priest is God.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Gene said:

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Thinker ……….The Sacrifice i am meaning is Jesus acting as a High Priest like Aron . but instead of Him offering up a lamb to GOD as Aron did He offered Up Himself , TO GOD. as the sacrifice, For our sins. This in no way imply Jesus was(the GOD) that offered up Himself as a GOD HIMSELF. Don't know where you are getting that from what i said.

Gene,
You're absolutely correct. Jesus offered up Himself. Earlier this month you said that the one who offers the sacrifice gets the full credit for being Savior. Now that you have admitted outright that Jesus offered up Himself you are closer to truth.

There is hope for you  

thinker

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ June 01 2009,10:49)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2009,08:55) Hi TT, Jesus is the eternal High Priest unto God. He is not also that God. He is our mediator with God. He does not mediate with himself. Trinity is an offensive human addition to the written truth Nick, As usual you missed the point. Gene said that it is God who offered the sacrifices. So by Gene's own rule our High Priest is God. thinker

Hi TT,
Is Jesus your God?

He had a God and should we not follow him and become true worshipers??

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (thethinker @ June 01 2009,10:54)

Gene said: Quote Thinker ……….The Sacrifice i am meaning is Jesus acting as a High Priest like Aron . but instead of Him offering up a lamb to GOD as Aron did He offered Up Himself , TO GOD. as the sacrifice, For our sins. This in no way imply Jesus was(the GOD) that offered up Himself as a GOD HIMSELF. Don't know where you are getting that from what i said. Gene, You're absolutely correct. Jesus offered up Himself. Earlier this month you said that the one who offers the sacrifice gets the full credit for being Savior. Now that you have admitted outright that Jesus offered up Himself you are closer to truth. There is hope for you   thinker

Thinker…………Jesus offered up Himself in (OBEDIENCE) to the WILL of GOD , Not will of HIMSELF. “Remember” Not (MY) Will but thy WILL be done.  So if it wasn't his will then obviously it had to be the will of someone else, right?. Thinker brother you need to dump this trinitarian Ideology . That doctrine is so full of Holes how could anyone believe it. IMO

peace and love to you brother…………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Thinker………Maybe this will help, “GOD so loved the World that (HE GAVE) His uniquely begotten son that who so every believes in Him should not parish, GOD the FATHER gave Him to DEATH for the forgiveness of our Sins. Or don't you believe Jesus was the LAMB of GOD. Being the Lamb of GOD does not mean the Lamb is GOD, but the Lamb of GOD. He is a High PRIEST , not the GOD he is high Priest of. Common sense should tell you this brother. IMO

peace and love………………….gene

[KangarooJack]

Gene said:

Quote

Thinker…………Jesus offered up Himself in (OBEDIENCE) to the WILL of GOD , Not will of HIMSELF. “Remember” Not (MY) Will but thy WILL be done.  So if it wasn't his will then obviously it had to be the will of someone else, right?. Thinker brother you need to dump this trinitarian Ideology . That doctrine is so full of Holes  how could anyone believe it.

Gene,
My 19 year old daughter says that you talk about Christ like He was a “robot”. What you are essentially saying is that “obedience” was Christ's only motivation. HE OFFERED HIMSELF UP BECAUSE HE LOVED US.

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Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13)

Did Jesus lay down His life VOLUNTARILY for you? He said that He possessed the authority to lay down his life or not to lay it down. He was not obligated to obey. He said that if He wanted out of the plan that the Father would have sent him twelve legions of angels to deliver him. Your views are based on select Scriptures which you think support you. If you were to take the whole counsel of God and harmonize it all you would find that the Scriptures do not support you at all.

I marvel that you can think that Christ was forced to lay down His life and that He did not do it out of love for you.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ June 01 2009,15:19)

Thinker………Maybe this will help, “GOD so loved the World that (HE GAVE) His uniquely begotten son that who so every believes in Him should not parish, GOD the FATHER gave Him to DEATH  for the forgiveness of our Sins. Or don't you believe Jesus was the LAMB of GOD. Being the Lamb of GOD does not mean the Lamb is GOD, but the Lamb of GOD. He is a High PRIEST , not the GOD he is high Priest of. Common sense should tell you this brother. IMO peace and love………………….gene

Gene,
You are confusing old covenant salvation with new covenant salvation. Our new covenant high priest has no weaknesses because He was appointed by oath (Heb. 7). Only God is without weakness.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Was he not like to us?
Did he not have to overcome?

He was a man and all men are weak.
God's power shows up best in weak vessels.

Read Job 25 remembering he was a son of Adam and born of woman

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2009,07:23)

Hi TT, Was he not like to us? Did he not have to overcome? He was a man and all men are weak. God's power shows up best in weak vessels. Read Job 25 remembering he was a son of Adam and born of woman

Nick,
Hebrews 7 contradicts you. God gave us a high priest that was without weakness. It is tue that Jesus was born of a woman. But he was conceived by the Holy Spirit unlike all other men. If you don't like the Savior God gave you that's your problem.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
So he was not God but the Saviour God gave us?
A man like us in all ways except sin.
An overcomer.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2009,11:04)

Hi TT, So he was not God but the Saviour God gave us? A man like us in all ways except sin. An overcomer.

Nick,
Titus 2:13 says that Jesus Christ is God and Savior. See the Titus 2:13 thread in “Truth or tradition”.

thinker

[942767]

Quote (thethinker @ May 30 2009,20:14)

942767 said: Quote Therefore, in order for sin to be a part of his nature, he had to yield to temptation.  He was weak in the flesh, just as all of us, except Jesus, have been. Marty, Your reasoning is circular. The Scripture says that the law appointed men that had weakness. But Jesus was appointed high priest by an oath. Therefore, He was without weakness. The idea that Jesus was born unclean (Nick) and that He had evil desires (Kerwin) is blasphemous. And it's a good thing that all blasphemy against the Son may be forgiven (Matt. 12:32). thinker

Hi thethinker:

All of humanity, including Jesus, were born as infants in innocence. The difference is that all of humanity except Jesus yielded to temptation.

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Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all

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Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

Below is the scripture to which you refer:

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Hbr 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) Hbr 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. Hbr 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: Hbr 7:24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The infirmity of the priests under the law is that they yielded unto temptation, and the wages of sin is death, but God had forseen that Jesus would obey Him without yielding to temptation even unto death on the cross.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[KangarooJack]

Marty said:

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All of humanity, including Jesus, were born as infants in innocence.  The difference is that all of humanity except Jesus yielded to temptation.

Marty,
Paul said that Adam's original sin was imputed to his progeny,

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For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners

Men are born guilty.

Marty said:

Quote

The infirmity of the priests under the law is that they yielded unto temptation, and the wages of sin is death, but God had forseen that Jesus would obey Him without yielding to temptation even unto death on the cross.

Hebrews 7 does NOT say that Jesus was ordained by oath because God foresaw that He would not yield to temptation. It says that men with weakness are ordained by law but that Christ was ordained by oath. The necessary inference is that Christ had no weakness. You are reading your own ideas into the text.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Jesus was a man according to scripture.
Born guilty?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2009,05:15)

Hi TT, Jesus was a man according to scripture. Born guilty?

Blasphemy!

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Which part do you find not aligned with scripture?
That he was a man or as a man was by your definition born guilty?

Acts 2.22-23
1Tim2.5 etc

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2009,21:03)

Hi TT, Which part do you find not aligned with scripture? That he was a man or as a man was by your definition born guilty? Acts 2.22-23 1Tim2.5 etc

You're playing games Nick.

thinker

[942767]

Hi thethinker:

Marty said:Quote
All of humanity, including Jesus, were born as infants in innocence. The difference is that all of humanity except Jesus yielded to temptation.

thethinker said:

Quote

Marty, Paul said that Adam's original sin was imputed to his progeny, Quote For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners

Marty said:

This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin entered into the world by Adam, but he is not responsible for anyone yielding to temptation. This scripture states “and so death passed upon all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. And that is what I have stated all of humanity yielded to temptation (which is the transgression of the law), except Jesus.

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Marty said:Quote The infirmity of the priests under the law is that they yielded unto temptation, and the wages of sin is death, but God had forseen that Jesus would obey Him without yielding to temptation even unto death on the cross.

the thinker said:

Quote

Hebrews 7 does NOT say that Jesus was ordained by oath because God foresaw that He would not yield to temptation. It says that men with weakness are ordained by law but that Christ was ordained by oath. The necessary inference is that Christ had no weakness. You are reading your own ideas into the text.

Marty said:

The scripture does not state that Christ had no weaknesses. It states that he was tempted every way just as we were and yet without sin.

Has God forseen everything from the beginning to the end. Did he forsee that Jesus would obey Him without sin even unto death on the cross?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ June 04 2009,12:09)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2009,21:03) Hi TT, Which part do you find not aligned with scripture? That he was a man or as a man was by your definition born guilty? Acts 2.22-23 1Tim2.5 etc You're playing games Nick. thinker

Hi TT,
No games.
Jesus was a man according to scripture.
Do you believe it?

[kerwin]

Marty wrote:

Quote

Sin entered into the world by Adam, but he is not responsible for anyone yielding to temptation.

No one that I know of has claimed that Adam is responsible for anyone else but himself yielding to temptation, so that would be a strawman argument except you might actually be misunderstanding the position of others.

The argument I make is that Adam sinned and the spirit of mankind was corrupted by that act and therefore his descendants inherited that corrupt spirit.  That corrupt spirit is in rebellion to God and so wants to sin.  That is why Jesus taught that a man must be reborn in spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Holy Spirit, which we are not born with, wants to do God’s will.  The question then becomes “did Jesus have two spirits”, the first spirit which he inherited from Adam through his mother Mary and the second spirit which he received from God through faith.  Is this why Jesus prayed “as you will Father and not I will”?

The bottom line is we are discussing how the spirit of man became corrupt.  Does the first sin of each man corrupt his own spirit or did the sin that Adam and Eve commit corrupt the spirit of mankind and thus each human receives a corrupt spirit from their parents?

Hypothetical if each man’s spirit only becomes corrupt when they sin then it is plausible that a human being can be righteous by human effort.   That idea seems absurd when I examine it.  

So it seems to me that you are stating that Jesus is righteous by human effort.  If that is so I disagree because the righteous live by faith.

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