Urantia Trinity

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,22:09)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2013,14:22) So the LITERAL part of the statement is the “many lords” part, right? And the EXAGGERATED part of the statement is the “one lord Jesus Christ” part, right? Agreed!

Likewise, since scriptures testify to the existence of many gods, the “indeed there ARE many gods” part of Paul's 1 Cor 8 statement is the LITERAL part, and the “one god the Father” part is the EXAGGERATED, or EMPHATIC part of the statement.

If you are able to understand and agree about the “lords” part, then why do you resist clear scriptures and not agree about the “gods” part?  

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,22:09)

the fact is The Only TRUE SAVIOUR is the one “who sends”.  If God doesn't send the Saviour there is no saving.

Agreed………. for the most part.  Sometimes God doesn't specifically SEND a savior, but simply allows someone to save others.  But you are spot on that no one in existence would have the power to save even one hair on their own head if that power wasn't GIVEN to them by the Most High God Jehovah in the first place.

John 19
10 “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.”

Pilate had the power to SAVE Jesus……… but only because that power was GIVEN to him from the Father in the first place.

So since we agree on this point, let's build from that agreement.

1.  Jehovah didn't say He was the only TRUE savior in Isaiah 43:11.  Instead, He said He was the ONLY savior – period.  So was that a LITERAL statement?  Or an EXAGGERATED statement meant to imply that He is the “ULTIMATE savior”, and that no one else would have the power to save if not for Him?  Which one?

2.  Could it therefore be that when Jehovah says there is no god besides Him, it is an EXAGGERATED statement meant to imply that He is the “ULTIMATE god”, and that no one else would have the powers that qualify one as a god if not for Him?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,22:16)

Polytheism (from the Greek: polus, many, and theos, god) refers to belief in, or worship of, multiple gods or deities. Do you believe in multiple gods? Yes or No? If you are you are a Polytheist

Agreed.  I am in fact a polytheist when you use the “belief in OR worship of” definition.  Some dictionaries lump them both together and say polytheism is the “belief in AND worship of more than one deity”.  

I believe in the existence of many gods.  But I only worship the God that the god Jesus Christ told the god Satan we should worship.  (And yes, every bit of that sentence is scripturally accurate.   )

Okay, so I'm a polytheist.  Who else is?

Exodus 12:12
I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.

Jehovah is apparently a polytheist.

Psalm 97:7
……worship him, all you gods!

Psalm 138:1
…..before the gods I will sing your praise.

Psalm 8:4-5
What is mankind that you are mindful of them?  You have made them a little lower than the gods and crowned them with glory and honor.

David was apparently a polytheist.

John 10:35
If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

Jesus was apparently a polytheist.  And Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Samuel, etc.  I can't think of one single book in the Bible that DOESN'T at some point speak of the other gods in existence, Asana.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,22:16)

Definition of MONOTHEISM: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God

Yes, that is for sure the most common and defended belief in the 21st century.  Unfortunately, that belief never came from the scriptures, Asana.  It was ushered in by Trinitarians who knew that Jesus IS called a god in scripture, and wanted him to be the Most High God that he is the Son of.  In order to do that, they had to first make the SCRIPTUAL teachings about the many other gods in existence taboo.  They had to invent phrases like “false gods” – a term that is never once used in the original texts of scripture.

Your monotheism belief has been “grandfathered in” from years of teachings from MEN, who were either trying to defend the claim that Jesus is the MOST HIGH god, or trying to protect the Bible from itself.

The fact is that the Bible CLEARLY teaches of many gods.  Jehovah teaches it.  Jesus teaches it.  Paul teaches it.  Etc, etc, etc. And what the scriptures teach is that Jehovah is the Most High God OF those other gods, and the ONLY god who created all things.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 20 2013,01:28)

The truth is that there is only one true God, and one true Lord.

And which one is our “only one true lord”? The Father? Or the Son?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 20 2013,05:46)

(4.7) 0:2.13 2. God the Son — Co-ordinate Creator, Spirit Controller, and Spiritual Administrator. The Eternal Son, the Second Person of Deity.

Didn't you just scold t8 for implying that Jesus was the “second person in your trinity”?

Okay. So it seems that “God the Son” is someone OTHER THAN “God the Father”, right? At least your UB seems to distinguish them as separate “personalities”, right?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 20 2013,04:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2013,14:25) Colter, do you believe Jesus IS the Father God?  YES or NO? Yes At the same time the disciples were right to refer to the Father as distinct from the Son in an absolute sense.

Hmmm……….

Seems like you're giving mixed signals. But then, according to you, Jesus and the writers of scripture also gave those same mixed signals.

If Jesus IS the Father God, then who exactly did Jesus PRAY TO when he was on earth?

And why do so many scriptures distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Father God?

I'm not buying the nonsense that goes along with your trinity anymore than I've ever bought the nonsense associated with the Catholic trinity.

I believe we all have but one God who created us. I believe that God is not only our God, but also Jesus' God. Jesus himself told me that much.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 20 2013,13:50)

No one gets to the Father except through him.

Why go THROUGH Jesus to GET TO the Father if we have already REACHED the Father when we reach Jesus?

Jesus is the mediator BETWEEN man and God, Colter. He is a priest OF God.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 21 2013,06:18)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 21 2013,02:12) Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 20 2013,18:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 20 2013,15:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2013,14:22) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,20:55) 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Asana, I'm going to assume from the fact that you ignored my “savior” point and 2 Cor 4:4 that you don't really have an answer for those points. I'm also going to assume that the “polytheist” accusations came from a place of ignorance, not hate. There is MUCH I can show you (and will), but let's start with the passage you just quoted. Paul said that there are many lords, but for us there is but one lord, Jesus Christ. One part of that statement is LITERAL, and one part is an EXAGGERATED, or EMPHATIC statement.  Let's find out which is which: Are there truly many lords, both in heaven and on earth?  YES. Is Jesus truly and literally the ONLY lord Christians have?  NO. So the LITERAL part of the statement is the “many lords” part, right? And the EXAGGERATED part of the statement is the “one lord Jesus Christ” part, right? Polytheism (from the Greek: polus, many, and theos, god) refers to belief in, or worship of, multiple gods or deities. Do you believe in multiple gods? Yes or No? If you are you are a Polytheist Definition of MONOTHEISM: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God This is what I believe, so which are you by definition? And I ask not only you but all of you? Boditharta. **God is speaking to humans**.(men). They have created many,many gods,and many,many Lords. The truth is that there is only one true God, and one true Lord. The other gods are all false gods, that are not gods at all, they are created by men. There is only one God and one Lord Jesus Christ whom God sent. And he also is *IN* the father. wakeup. We generally agree then but even more so even GOD Almighty is also Lord Jesus demonstrated this fact when he said: John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. The only Being who's business will never be completely know is God and therefore HE is also the ONLY TRUE LORD hence it is written:”The Lord your God is one Lord”? Boditharta. Yes we do,but you still must give evidence that Allah is Jehovah. Because of the different message. wakeup.

Allah is Jehovah and the message is based upon revelation
just as Jesus was a revelation to the Jews.

When something is revealed it causes some to believe more and others to believe less but when viewed from complete objectivity the truth is clear to see.

For instance we would know for sure God hates the taking of innocent life

God hates Human Sacrifice

God states ALL firstborn are redeemed from Sacrifice

God wants Mercy over Sacrifice

God doesn't need Sacrifice (HE owns everything)

So upon an objective reading I would very much expect and appreciate God willing to save and innocent firstborn form Sacrifice because of HIS Mercy and to have that confirmed in a revelation is EVIDENCE

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 21 2013,06:50)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 21 2013,06:06) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 21 2013,03:09) Quote There are no deities: Allah! There is no deity save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous. (  سورة البقرة  , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #255) Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. Trying to incorporate and join other entities as gods along side God is still polytheism. I have already asked and no one will answer. Are you a polytheist by definition i.e. do you believe in “gods”? No, I’m not a polytheist, I’m a monotheist. Jesus proved you wrong; there are deities, children of the Universal Father. As a Muslim you have been misguided by the limitations of the Mohamed’s personal, human opinion contained within the Koran. (1144.6) 104:1.9 The followers of the Islamic faith likewise failed to grasp the idea of the Trinity. It is always difficult for an emerging monotheism to tolerate trinitarianism when confronted by polytheism. The trinity idea takes best hold of those religions which have a firm monotheistic tradition coupled with doctrinal elasticity. The great monotheists, the Hebrews and Mohammedans, found it difficult to distinguish between worshiping three gods, polytheism, and trinitarianism, the worship of one Deity existing in a triune manifestation of divinity and personality. I believe in and worship One God existing in a triune manifestation of divinity and personality. Colter I asked you do you believe in “gods”? Do you believe that what you call “children of the universal Father” are individual beings that are deities/gods? You said Jesus proved me wrong, how so? Do you believe he is a god other than th God you say you worship? bodhitharta, Are you just being argumentative, repeating the same question over and over like a prosecutor without any sincere interest? I have provided very specific answers with explanations to your questions, to everyone’s questions. Yes, they are God(s) in that they are plural deity manifestations of the Universal Father, aligned in will with the Universal Father. They do not have separate agendas, separate Infinities, eternities or absoluteness in reality status.    “Manifestation of divinity and personality” Jesus proved you wrong because he came down from heaven, revealed the Father, resurrected a likeness of his former mortal self and now is Lord and God, yet has a Universal Father, he IS the personification of the Universal Father. No one gets to the Father except through him. Colter Colter

Okay then you are a Polytheist because you believe in more than ONE BEING worth of being called “GOD”.

I just want that to be clear because conversing with a polytheist is not the same as conversing with a Monotheist
the difference is a dialogue with a polytheist is more like speaking to an atheist and by that I mean the atheist has no God and the polytheist has too many so it is the same thing and the same argument.

[Spock]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2013,07:59)

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 20 2013,05:46) (4.7) 0:2.13 2. God the Son — Co-ordinate Creator, Spirit Controller, and Spiritual Administrator. The Eternal Son, the Second Person of Deity. Didn't you just scold t8 for implying that Jesus was the “second person in your trinity”?   Okay.  So it seems that “God the Son” is someone OTHER THAN “God the Father”, right?  At least your UB seems to distinguish them as separate “personalities”, right?

If you read the material I have provided then you would understand that God the Universal Father is personified in the 3 personalities of the Paradice Trinity. The Creator Sons are a creation of the Trinity, they are in turn the Fathers of their created universes.

If you don't bother reading what I have provided then you are likly to keep asking stupid questions.

Colter

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2013,07:23)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,22:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2013,14:22) So the LITERAL part of the statement is the “many lords” part, right? And the EXAGGERATED part of the statement is the “one lord Jesus Christ” part, right? Agreed! Likewise, since scriptures testify to the existence of many gods, the “indeed there ARE many gods” part of Paul's 1 Cor 8 statement is the LITERAL part, and the “one god the Father” part is the EXAGGERATED, or EMPHATIC part of the statement. If you are able to understand and agree about the “lords” part, then why do you resist clear scriptures and not agree about the “gods” part?   Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,22:09) the fact is The Only TRUE SAVIOUR is the one “who sends”.  If God doesn't send the Saviour there is no saving. Agreed………. for the most part.  Sometimes God doesn't specifically SEND a savior, but simply allows someone to save others.  But you are spot on that no one in existence would have the power to save even one hair on their own head if that power wasn't GIVEN to them by the Most High God Jehovah in the first place. John 19 10 “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?” 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.” Pilate had the power to SAVE Jesus……… but only because that power was GIVEN to him from the Father in the first place. So since we agree on this point, let's build from that agreement. 1.  Jehovah didn't say He was the only TRUE savior in Isaiah 43:11.  Instead, He said He was the ONLY savior – period.  So was that a LITERAL statement?  Or an EXAGGERATED statement meant to imply that He is the “ULTIMATE savior”, and that no one else would have the power to save if not for Him?  Which one? 2.  Could it therefore be that when Jehovah says there is no god besides Him, it is an EXAGGERATED statement meant to imply that He is the “ULTIMATE god”, and that no one else would have the powers that qualify one as a god if not for Him?

WAIT…..The ONE GOD the Father part is not exaggerated it is LITERAL. There are not many gods that are actually gods, that number is and will remain 0.

I do not agree with multiple lords either to me There is the LORD GOD. Now, I understand that the terms lord and god are used arbitrarily and metaphorically but ACTUALLY there is ONLY ONE LORD, GOD and SAVIOUR.

Quote

no one in existence would have the power to save even one hair on their own head if that power wasn't GIVEN to them by the Most High God Jehovah in the first place.

Exactly!

Quote

John 19 10 “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?” 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.” Pilate had the power to SAVE Jesus……… but only because that power was GIVEN to him from the Father in the first place.

Luke 23:22
And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.

Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

answer to 1. Isaiah 43:11 does infact make a Clear claim

Isaiah 43:11

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

11 I, even I, am the Lord;
and beside me there is no saviour.

This is actually saing He is the only true saviour since it excludes all others.

Answer to 2. It is not exaggereated to say Jehovah is the ULTIMATE GOD in fact the ULTIMATE GOD would be UNIQUE in such a way that even conferring godlike powers on another being would not diminish HIS SUPREMACY in the least therefore whatever HE gives only Qualifies HIM more to be praised as th only ONE Worthy of WORSHIP. In the truest sense ONLY GOD does not require outside assistance to be

[Spock]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2013,08:11)

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 20 2013,13:50) No one gets to the Father except through him. Why go THROUGH Jesus to GET TO the Father if we have already REACHED the Father when we reach Jesus?   Jesus is the mediator BETWEEN man and God, Colter.  He is a priest OF God.

Because we circuit through Christ as we make our way through the “many mansions”. We will bid farewell to Christ where he is resident on the headquarters world at “the right hand of the Father” We will continue on through many more phases as we make our way to Paradice where we will one day stand in the presence of the Eternal God. From there we return to the material creations for endless service.

Colter

[Spock]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2013,08:06)

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 20 2013,04:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2013,14:25) Colter, do you believe Jesus IS the Father God?  YES or NO? Yes At the same time the disciples were right to refer to the Father as distinct from the Son in an absolute sense. Hmmm………. Seems like you're giving mixed signals.  But then, according to you, Jesus and the writers of scripture also gave those same mixed signals. If Jesus IS the Father God, then who exactly did Jesus PRAY TO when he was on earth? And why do so many scriptures distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Father God? I'm not buying the nonsense that goes along with your trinity anymore than I've ever bought the nonsense associated with the Catholic trinity. I believe we all have but one God who created us.  I believe that God is not only our God, but also Jesus' God.  Jesus himself told me that much.

It's ok that you don't agree, you don't even seem to understand what you don't agree with, so for now it's best to stick with your current beliefs.

FYI, Jesus prayed to the Father while incarnate as Amman subject to the will of the Father. He was able self limit his divinity. After he resurrected a form of his former material body Michael begins to speak by divine rite.

Colter

[Proclaimer]

Colter.

The fact that you believe in a Trinity at all proves your foundation is faulty. No amount of verses and no amount of human reasoning can stand when the foundation is wrong.

Even if you think the building is strong, if the foundation is weak, it will all collapse.

Your deck of cards has already fallen by the way.
Light has come into the world but the world preferred darkness to light.

And who is the Prince of Darkness?
It is the one who poses as an Angel of Light?

And why pose as an angel of Light?
To deceive people who do not embrace the true light.

For the true light has already come into the world.
But you have not embraced it and have chosen another light which is not true light at all.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 20 2013,15:16)

It is clearly there Mike but my experience has been that people from the JW sect or any denier group, perform an incredible self deception in mid flight. That is to say that when they read the accounts of Jesus claiming to be the personification of God the Father, their brain actually translates the words, definitions and meaning before it gets to the conscious perception part of their brain. The result is they hear something that Jesus didn't say. The reason is they still need the scripture to validate their unbelief. That way they maintain legitimacy, scriptural authority and a poker face when they act like the claims arent there. Low enformation prospects blindly follow this line of baloney

Colter. Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
We are also made in the image of God.

No image is the source. That is common sense.

We do not believe that any image is the source.

Thus the image of God is not God but his image.

Likewise, the son of God is not God, but his son.

And it was God who made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

This is what we believe about the son and we believe this because this is what is written.

We steer clear of what men have said since that contradicts that which was written down for us.

[Wakeup]

BTW: JESUS IS NOT MICHAEL THE ARCH ANGEL.
HE CREATED ALL THE ANGELS.

***WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE***.

HOW CAN THE CREATOR ALSO BE THE CREATURE.
*WITHOUT THE CREATOR* WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE**

MICHAEL WAS MADE BY JESUS.

wakeup.

[Spock]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 21 2013,11:10)

Colter. The fact that you believe in a Trinity at all proves your foundation is faulty. No amount of verses and no amount of human reasoning can stand when the foundation is wrong. Even if you think the building is strong, if the foundation is weak, it will all collapse. Your deck of cards has already fallen by the way. Light has come into the world but the world preferred darkness to light. And who is the Prince of Darkness? It is the one who poses as an Angel of Light? And why pose as an angel of Light? To deceive people who do not embrace the true light. For the true light has already come into the world. But you have not embraced it and have chosen another light which is not true light at all.

Oooh, that's spookey, did you get that from jwsermons.com?

Colter

[Spock]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 21 2013,11:16)

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 20 2013,15:16) It is clearly there Mike but my experience has been that people from the JW sect or any denier group, perform an incredible self deception in mid flight. That is to say that when they read the accounts of Jesus claiming to be the personification of God the Father, their brain actually translates the words, definitions and meaning before it gets to the conscious perception part of their brain. The result is they hear something that Jesus didn't say. The reason is they still need the scripture to validate their unbelief. That way they maintain legitimacy, scriptural authority and a poker face when they act like the claims arent there. Low enformation prospects blindly follow this line of baloney Colter. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. We are also made in the image of God. No image is the source. That is common sense. We do not believe that any image is the source. Thus the image of God is not God but his image. Likewise, the son of God is not God, but his son. And it was God who made Jesus both Lord and Christ. This is what we believe about the son and we believe this because this is what is written. We steer clear of what men have said since that contradicts that which was written down for us.

Well maybe one day you will loose your spcial caseness form of prejudice and the scriptures will be open to you. Like Thomas you just might experience an attitude change.

Colter

[Wakeup]

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 21 2013,12:32)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 21 2013,11:10) Colter. The fact that you believe in a Trinity at all proves your foundation is faulty. No amount of verses and no amount of human reasoning can stand when the foundation is wrong. Even if you think the building is strong, if the foundation is weak, it will all collapse. Your deck of cards has already fallen by the way. Light has come into the world but the world preferred darkness to light. And who is the Prince of Darkness? It is the one who poses as an Angel of Light? And why pose as an angel of Light? To deceive people who do not embrace the true light. For the true light has already come into the world. But you have not embraced it and have chosen another light which is not true light at all. Oooh, that's spookey, did you get that from jwsermons.com? Colter

Colter.

What is so spooky about this scripture?

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Without Jesus was **not anything** made that was made.

I know you would reject this as a jewish fable,because
it does not fit in your picture.

You will keep on picking cherries.

wakeup.

[Spock]

Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 21 2013,11:24)

BTW: JESUS IS NOT MICHAEL THE ARCH ANGEL. HE CREATED ALL THE ANGELS. ***WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE***. HOW CAN THE CREATOR ALSO BE THE CREATURE. *WITHOUT THE CREATOR* WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE** MICHAEL WAS MADE BY JESUS. wakeup.

Never said he was. Michael is the heavenly name for the Creator Son just like Gabriel's name is Gabriel.

Colter

[Spock]

Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 21 2013,13:36)

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 21 2013,12:32) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 21 2013,11:10) Colter. The fact that you believe in a Trinity at all proves your foundation is faulty. No amount of verses and no amount of human reasoning can stand when the foundation is wrong. Even if you think the building is strong, if the foundation is weak, it will all collapse. Your deck of cards has already fallen by the way. Light has come into the world but the world preferred darkness to light. And who is the Prince of Darkness? It is the one who poses as an Angel of Light? And why pose as an angel of Light? To deceive people who do not embrace the true light. For the true light has already come into the world. But you have not embraced it and have chosen another light which is not true light at all. Oooh, that's spookey, did you get that from jwsermons.com? Colter Colter. What is so spooky about this scripture? John 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Without Jesus was **not anything** made that was made. I know you would reject this as a jewish fable,because it does not fit in your picture. You will keep on picking cherries. wakeup.

Beats me, John was being strait forward. Did you have an hallucination and see that in t8's post?

Colter

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