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Quote (chosenone @ Nov. 26 2008,07:20) Hi 942767.
You have given a lengthly reply, but I will only deal with one, if I may. You quote Rev.20:10 as a example of your opinion. May I point out that this is an example of the most often error in translation that is in many versions. That is the greek word aion, being translated as “forever, endless, neverending, where in truth, it never means that, the correct English translation is “eon”, meaning a fixed lenght of time, similar to “age”. Scripture refers to five eons, we are in the third,”wicked” eon.
An example from the “Concordant Version” if I may is: …10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons.
I apolagise for not commenting on the other statements, but I find myself short of time, and have shortened the amount of time I am on this website. I will be commenting on only a few subjects, thank you.Blessings.
Hi CO:You wanted to discuss scriptures that contradicted your interpretation of 1 Ti 4:10 that all men will be saved, and I have posted scriptures for your meditation and discussion.
I don't believe that the scriptures teach that the unsaved will burn in hell forever and ever but that they will be completely destroyed, and that their punishment will be according to their works.
But the scriptures do not teach that all men will be saved, and so this is the topic that we were discussing. Actually, I would hope that what you are teaching here is correct, but no, unfortunately, it is not correct.
God Bless
Exactly 94,
This philosophy is self death to those who refuse to accept the message of Jesus Christ in the false belief that all will be saved, and thus it is unnecessary to do so.Quote (942767 @ Nov. 29 2008,02:37) Quote (chosenone @ Nov. 26 2008,07:20) Hi 942767.
You have given a lengthly reply, but I will only deal with one, if I may. You quote Rev.20:10 as a example of your opinion. May I point out that this is an example of the most often error in translation that is in many versions. That is the greek word aion, being translated as “forever, endless, neverending, where in truth, it never means that, the correct English translation is “eon”, meaning a fixed lenght of time, similar to “age”. Scripture refers to five eons, we are in the third,”wicked” eon.
An example from the “Concordant Version” if I may is: …10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons.
I apolagise for not commenting on the other statements, but I find myself short of time, and have shortened the amount of time I am on this website. I will be commenting on only a few subjects, thank you.Blessings.
Hi CO:You wanted to discuss scriptures that contradicted your interpretation of 1 Ti 4:10 that all men will be saved, and I have posted scriptures for your meditation and discussion.
I don't believe that the scriptures teach that the unsaved will burn in hell forever and ever but that they will be completely destroyed, and that their punishment will be according to their works.
But the scriptures do not teach that all men will be saved, and so this is the topic that we were discussing. Actually, I would hope that what you are teaching here is correct, but no, unfortunately, it is not correct.
God Bless
Hi 942767.
I reread your previous post, and do not believe it states that all mankind that don't believe will be exterminated.
When I have more time I will try and compile a list of scripture that says “all mankind will be saved”.Blessings.
Nick….if you and 942767 want to believe God will Destroy people in an ever burning literal “lake of fire” you need to show scripture to prove your points not I and CO have both shown scriptures that show there is a strong leaning for salvation of All through fire Judgments. If you are so adamantly against that then produce you clear proofs. Show me (ONE) Scripture where God is going to throw a single human being into a LITERAL LAKE OF FIRE. You making a statement as this Philosophy is sure death is not only hog wash but has (NO) Scriptural backing. YOU saying that it is against Jesus' teaching that to is also hog wash, you cant produce one Scripture that shows that people are going to be cast into a REAL LITERAL, lake of Fire. If you can produce it.
The lake of Fire is symbolic for intense Judgments and that all it is. God plan and desire is to save (ALL) HIS Creation one way or another, God is no Loser Nick. He will save (ALL) ultimately but some through much tribulation and intense Judgments. I realize this destroys your self Pride of Making the “right Free will” choices and it is some what humbling to know , but none the less it is scriptural i believe.
said in love………..gene
Think about this:
If people were to burn forever and ever in a continuous state of torture, that would mean they are alive.So then where is the meaning of second “death”?
Dead the second time means gone forever more and not alive forever more. Even death itself will be gone in the end.
To believe that the dead are alive is very contradictory and confusing, so I know it is a lie because Elohim is not the author of confusion.
Laurel………..How do you know if the death talked about doesn't means putting the way we live to death and if this was not done in this life it must be done after the resurrection, through interring into intense Judgment with God who is said to be the CONSUMING FIRE. “For our God is a consuming fire”.How do you know if God Himself is not the Lake of FIRE Himself.
love and peace to you and yours……………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 30 2008,12:08) Nick….if you and 942767 want to believe God will Destroy people in an ever burning literal “lake of fire” you need to show scripture to prove your points not I and CO have both shown scriptures that show there is a strong leaning for salvation of All through fire Judgments. If you are so adamantly against that then produce you clear proofs. Show me (ONE) Scripture where God is going to throw a single human being into a LITERAL LAKE OF FIRE. You making a statement as this Philosophy is sure death is not only hog wash but has (NO) Scriptural backing. YOU saying that it is against Jesus' teaching that to is also hog wash, you cant produce one Scripture that shows that people are going to be cast into a REAL LITERAL, lake of Fire. If you can produce it. The lake of Fire is symbolic for intense Judgments and that all it is. God plan and desire is to save (ALL) HIS Creation one way or another, God is no Loser Nick. He will save (ALL) ultimately but some through much tribulation and intense Judgments. I realize this destroys your self Pride of Making the “right Free will” choices and it is some what humbling to know , but none the less it is scriptural i believe.
said in love………..gene
Hi Gene:Whether or not it is literal fire or not does not matter, the scriptures state that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.
Quote Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Quote 2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; God is not willing that any man should perish but that all men should come to repentance, but unfortunately, not all will. It is their choice.
If Sodom and Gomorrha was turned to ashes, in what form did they then survive the intense judgments. The Apostle Peter says that they are an example of what will happen to the ungodly. This is what God says, Gene. If you want to argue with the scriptures, then that is between you and God.
God Bless
The first death to living souls can come one of two ways. We can be burried with Y'shua and be reborn of the Spirit, OR
We can refuse and face the judgment to the second death, which is permanent. We each have one life, no matter how long or short. Yahweh judges as He see fit and the Torah is His measuring stick.
The second death comes to those who are under the judgment of Torah, who refused the love of the truth. They who suffer the second death will not recieve the “mark” of Yahweh on their foreheads. They recieved the “mark” of the beast.
If you really have believed Y'shua, you will keep His commands, which are detailed in Torah. Your works will be plain for even disbelievers to see, even if they hide it as a show to those whom they are deceiving.
Ultimately He will judge us according to what is written on our hearts and mind. If His “mark” is there, He knows we are His and if His mark is not there, well then…..
There are numerous places the reveal this mark, and the counterfeit mark.
942767……I noticed you added your opinion to the scripture you quoted, (YOU SAID UNFORTUNATELY NOT ALL Will< IT"S THEIR CHOICE) Please show Scripture that says that. Are you saying GOD is incapable of Saving whosoever He wants to , and we are not really the clay but we assist the potter in His work on us. Sounds like a new Gospel !.
love and peace to you and yours……………….gene
942767………All the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will rise in Judgment and condemn the generation of the Pharisees at the time of Christ, to to think they were eternally destroyed is wrong, the example was about God's intense judgments on evil not his eternally destroying people. You need to understand i am not say people are going to be saved with out consequences of the way they lives for we shall all give account of the thing we have done in the flesh so everyone is judged either now or in the future, But Judgment begin at the house of GOD , and those whom God is presently working with are receiving discipline and scourges (NOW) in order to be accepted , For God disciplines and scourges every son he accepts.
love and peace to you and yours……………..gene
Lets see now, if I had a pet pitbull who wanted to kill me if it got out of it's cage, and not only me, but tiny children, and widows, and the old wise man down the street, should I let it live?
Wouldn't it be better for us if it was put to sleep, permanently?
Why would Yahweh let the deadly virus continue to thrive in heaven?
I do not want to sleep next to a doctor who has killed the children who slept innocently in the womb, never having done an evil thing to any being. If this is heaven, I don't want to be there!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 30 2008,13:27) 942767………All the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will rise in Judgment and condemn the generation of the Pharisees at the time of Christ, to to think they were eternally destroyed is wrong, the example was about God's intense judgments on evil not his eternally destroying people. You need to understand i am not say people are going to be saved with out consequences of the way they lives for we shall all give account of the thing we have done in the flesh so everyone is judged either now or in the future, But Judgment begin at the house of GOD , and those whom God is presently working with are receiving discipline and scourges (NOW) in order to be accepted , For God disciplines and scourges every son he accepts. love and peace to you and yours……………..gene
Hi Gene:So, what does it mean to you when the Apostle Peter says that Sodom and Gommorah were turned to ASHES?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 30 2008,13:13) 942767……I noticed you added your opinion to the scripture you quoted, (YOU SAID UNFORTUNATELY NOT ALL Will< IT"S THEIR CHOICE) Please show Scripture that says that. Are you saying GOD is incapable of Saving whosoever He wants to , and we are not really the clay but we assist the potter in His work on us. Sounds like a new Gospel !. love and peace to you and yours……………….gene
Hi Gene:I have already quoted the scriptures which show that not all will repent for Chosenone.
He is the potter and we are the clay when we are yielded to Him. Yet, we are not robots.
God Bless
Saying Sodom and Gomorrah will rise in judgment is twisting Scripture. The words were Nineweh will rise in judgment because they repented at the word of Jonah.
Y'shua says that the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah will be considered less severe than that of the Pharisees (those teaching falsly).
So we look at what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, wow! The ashes still remain as an example! Take heed!
Laurel……….Here is one for all to consider, Mat 21:31…> Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him , the first, Jesus saith them, Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the Harlots (GO) into the Kingdom of GOD before You (Pharisees) > does it say that the {Pharisees don't go into the kingdom of God} NO it say that the publican and Harlots would go in (BEFORE THEM) and then the Pharisees will, right?, I see no one left out here do you? But it does say the fearful and unbelieving will have their (Part) in the Lake of fire, right . Preaching dome and gloom and fear Helps no body and is a hindrance to the Gospel . Turning the good new of the kingdom into bad news is not scriptural. God said he has concluded (ALL) under sin that He might Have (MERCY) on ALL.
peace…………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 30 2008,14:53) Laurel……….Here is one for all to consider, Mat 21:31…> Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him , the first, Jesus saith them, Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the Harlots (GO) into the Kingdom of GOD before You (Pharisees) > does it say that the {Pharisees don't go into the kingdom of God} NO it say that the publican and Harlots would go in (BEFORE THEM) and then the Pharisees will, right?, I see no one left out here do you? But it does say the fearful and unbelieving will have their (Part) in the Lake of fire, right . Preaching dome and gloom and fear Helps no body and is a hindrance to the Gospel . Turning the good new of the kingdom into bad news is not scriptural. God said he has concluded (ALL) under sin that He might Have (MERCY) on ALL. peace…………gene
Hi Gene:Following are the scriptures to which you refer in context:
Quote Mat 21:28 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
And so, you are saying that the Pharisees who did not repent and did not believe the gospel will enter into the kingdom?
942767……….no what i am saying Jesus said they will go into the kingdom of God's and obviously for that to happen they will someday repent as God gives them repentance in His time they will all Be grafted back into the olive tree. Just as it says for (ALL) of Israel (SHALL) be SAVED. Again 942767 your trying to make salvation about (OUR OWN CHOICES) to repent, and by doing that your exclude GOD's GRACE ,(God's influencing on the heart) as the cause of repentance and change. We should not steal the Glory of our salvation from GOD and give it to man. WE are saved BY GRACE (God's influencing on the Hear) and GRACE ALONE. IMO
love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 30 2008,19:04) GB,
Should we read between the lines and that is good enough to call truth?
Nick………I am not reading between the lines I have stated as it is said, you can either except it or not brother.love to you……………………gene
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