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Hi Gene:
I believe that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth, you said:
Quote He HARDENS will NOT REPENT no matter how hard they try or How much fear you pump into them And then you say:
Quote 942767………..What GOD hardens He can also soften, ” for the Lord will take out of you the (STONY) or Hard Heart and give you a Heart of FLESH ( soft heart) and will write His laws in you inward Parts. May GOD speed the DAY brother. love to you and yours. …………….gene
Hi Gene:
If a person does not want to be saved, and does not want to repent God gives them up to a reprobate mind:
Quote Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Quote Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
Pro 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2008,10:51) Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2008,16:55) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 08 2008,04:52) Nick …..again you just ignore posted scripture and go on committing as if they don't even exist and by the way Romans was written after Jesus made that statement. True repentance itself is a work of GOD (Not a Self ACT) of Man, “for we are sorrowed unto righteousness” and again (GODLY) Sorrow (WORKS) REPENTANCE (NOT) to be REPENTED OF> this plainly shows repentance is given of GOD. You infuses on Repentance by HUMAN WILL OR CHOICE is (NOT) Scriptural. GOD GIVES REPENTANCE, and those He HARDENS will NOT REPENT no matter how hard they try or How much fear you pump into them , EX 19:20….> even the fear of God could not make them repent. True Repentance can only be accomplished in a person BY GOD the FATHER ALONE> The person has nothing to do with it , it is a work of GOD, that saves us, not a work of fear as you teach. Why do you continue to push God out of the Salvation process, Jesus sure didn't do that. Listen closer to (ALL) the words of Jesus and you could understand this.
peace………..gene
Amen to that post my brother Gene.
Hi Gene and Adam:And so, if God hardens someone, will they be saved?
942767.Yes, they will be saved!
32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
33 O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!
34 For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?
35 or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?
36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!Especially notice verse 36.
“All is of God”, we have no part in our salvation!
Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 13 2008,13:09) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2008,10:51) Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2008,16:55) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 08 2008,04:52) Nick …..again you just ignore posted scripture and go on committing as if they don't even exist and by the way Romans was written after Jesus made that statement. True repentance itself is a work of GOD (Not a Self ACT) of Man, “for we are sorrowed unto righteousness” and again (GODLY) Sorrow (WORKS) REPENTANCE (NOT) to be REPENTED OF> this plainly shows repentance is given of GOD. You infuses on Repentance by HUMAN WILL OR CHOICE is (NOT) Scriptural. GOD GIVES REPENTANCE, and those He HARDENS will NOT REPENT no matter how hard they try or How much fear you pump into them , EX 19:20….> even the fear of God could not make them repent. True Repentance can only be accomplished in a person BY GOD the FATHER ALONE> The person has nothing to do with it , it is a work of GOD, that saves us, not a work of fear as you teach. Why do you continue to push God out of the Salvation process, Jesus sure didn't do that. Listen closer to (ALL) the words of Jesus and you could understand this.
peace………..gene
Amen to that post my brother Gene.
Hi Gene and Adam:And so, if God hardens someone, will they be saved?
942767.Yes, they will be saved!
32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
33 O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!
34 For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?
35 or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?
36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!Especially notice verse 36.
“All is of God”, we have no part in our salvation!
Blessings.
Hi Co:If you haven't repented yet, then you haven't received the Holy Ghost and you have not been saved, and if you haven't been saved and don't have the Holy Ghost who is the Spirit of Truth proceeding from God my FATHER then you cannot teach me anything about God and His plan for our salvation.
My desire is the very best that God has to offer for you and your family.
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2008,10:51) Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2008,16:55) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 08 2008,04:52) Nick …..again you just ignore posted scripture and go on committing as if they don't even exist and by the way Romans was written after Jesus made that statement. True repentance itself is a work of GOD (Not a Self ACT) of Man, “for we are sorrowed unto righteousness” and again (GODLY) Sorrow (WORKS) REPENTANCE (NOT) to be REPENTED OF> this plainly shows repentance is given of GOD. You infuses on Repentance by HUMAN WILL OR CHOICE is (NOT) Scriptural. GOD GIVES REPENTANCE, and those He HARDENS will NOT REPENT no matter how hard they try or How much fear you pump into them , EX 19:20….> even the fear of God could not make them repent. True Repentance can only be accomplished in a person BY GOD the FATHER ALONE> The person has nothing to do with it , it is a work of GOD, that saves us, not a work of fear as you teach. Why do you continue to push God out of the Salvation process, Jesus sure didn't do that. Listen closer to (ALL) the words of Jesus and you could understand this.
peace………..gene
Amen to that post my brother Gene.
Hi Gene and Adam:And so, if God hardens someone, will they be saved?
This is something I wrote on another forum but thought it was relevant here:-It depends on what you are saved from.
Jesus in the Olivet discourse was talking about the soon to come destruction of the temple in 70AD. Those who endured to that end and read the signs correctly were saved from the wrath of God against the Jews.
But also Jesus died and was resurrected so that we can be saved from sin and death. All sin, all die, all go to Hades. Jesus was manifested so that there was more to the story ………
Christ the firstfruits
Those that are his at his coming
Then the end where he puts down all enemies under is his feet (meaning obedient to him)A lot of christians stop the order of resurrection at those that are Christs at his coming and don't accept that every knee will bow in subservience. Or maybe believe that they will bow in forced subservience and then will be thrown into a fiery lake aka Hell. But then how is God all in All if there is still a Hell?
It seems that things are taken out of context ….. because being saved is used in the context of the judgement of the Jews and also the same word is used for being saved from sin and death, meaning deliverance from Hades, it is assumed that those 2 situations can be merged into each other.
Hi MK:
You say:
Quote Then the end where he puts down all enemies under is his feet (meaning obedient to him) All enemies are under his feet in that they have either been reconciled to God through him or will be judged by him, but no, I do not believe that it means that all enemies will be in obedience to him.
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2008,12:27) Hi Gene: I believe that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth, you said:
Quote He HARDENS will NOT REPENT no matter how hard they try or How much fear you pump into them And then you say:
Quote 942767………..What GOD hardens He can also soften, ” for the Lord will take out of you the (STONY) or Hard Heart and give you a Heart of FLESH ( soft heart) and will write His laws in you inward Parts. May GOD speed the DAY brother. love to you and yours. …………….gene
942767…..notice exactly as i worded it 94, What is meant is who God Hardens will not repent not matter how Hard (THEY) try. Where do you read into that, that i said GOD cannot cause them to change by removing the Hardness He has put there.I see no contradiction at all there. God can both Harden and soften anyone He choses at any (TIME) or as MANY TIMES, He choses to.
Hi mk,
All who bow to King Jesus do so out of respect for his kingship.
That has nothing to do with repentance unto salvation.Here is the rebellion of the nations at the END of the millenial reign.
Rev20
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Ps2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2008,14:21) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2008,12:27) Hi Gene: I believe that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth, you said:
Quote He HARDENS will NOT REPENT no matter how hard they try or How much fear you pump into them And then you say:
Quote 942767………..What GOD hardens He can also soften, ” for the Lord will take out of you the (STONY) or Hard Heart and give you a Heart of FLESH ( soft heart) and will write His laws in you inward Parts. May GOD speed the DAY brother. love to you and yours. …………….gene
942767…..notice exactly as i worded it 94, What is meant is who God Hardens will not repent not matter how Hard (THEY) try. Where do you read into that, that i said GOD cannot cause them to change by removing the Hardness He has put there.I see no contradiction at all there. God can both Harden and soften anyone He choses at any (TIME) or as MANY TIMES, He choses to.
Hi Gene:God leads a man to repentance, but it is up to man to repent. Of the Pharisees of the nation Israel God says this:
Quote Jhn 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: Jhn 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Jhn 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Jhn 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Jhn 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God
Quote Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again
They were hardened because of their unbelief, but yes, if they repent God can and will show mercy But it is up to the man to repent.
But it was you who said that they could not repent if God hardens them regardless of how much fear you pump into them. How do you know that they can't? Is there a scripture on which you are basing this opinion?
And so, God hardens someone so that he can soften them maybe, perhaps at sometime in the future on what basis?
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 13 2008,14:19) Hi MK: You say:
Quote Then the end where he puts down all enemies under is his feet (meaning obedient to him) All enemies are under his feet in that they have either been reconciled to God through him or will be judged by him, but no, I do not believe that it means that all enemies will be in obedience to him.
G5293
ὑποτάσσω
hupotassō
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: – be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Read what these verses are saying – In verse 25 When Christ is reigning he is reigning with his kings and priests who are in the first resurrection – the elect/chosen ones, they were already obedient before the end.
When the end comes the enemies are put under his feet, they are subdued – which if you read what the word means is obedient.
Hi mk,
Before the end all are subdued.But not all are saved of course-that requires repentance.
That would be reading into the texct what is not written there.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2008,14:28) Hi mk,
All who bow to King Jesus do so out of respect for his kingship.
That has nothing to do with repentance unto salvation.Here is the rebellion of the nations at the END of the millenial reign.
Rev20
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Ps2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Nick,God is a consuming fire – flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God – there is no dispute that God will have wrath on all flesh, the body and soul is of the flesh which does not inherit the kingdom of God, if you sow to the flesh – you will reap destruction , if you sow to the spirit = life.
With Psalms that seems to be prophecy of wrath against the Jews and messianic
The kings of the earth and rulers take counsel against Messiah (when they crucified him)
then God says he speaks to them in his wrath = 70AD
verse 7 messianic prophecy
verse 8 heathen for his inheritance
The kings are instructed to be wise – thats why I think when Revelation speaks of spirits like frogs and the kings of the earth (kings and rulers are supposed to be Gods people) Beasts in prophecy are secular kings and kingdoms – it is about false doctrine and christians who are apostate – they say they are obedient but they are concerned with the teachings of men and not the things of GodQuote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2008,16:27) Hi mk,
Before the end all are subdued.But not all are saved of course-that requires repentance.
That would be reading into the texct what is not written there.
No you are reading into the text “but of course they can't be saved because that will make my free choice to be worthless – why did I repent why did I not just continue to rebel and then face wrath and then after that get the free gift of life.”Repentance is obedience
G3341
μετάνοια
metanoia
met-an'-oy-ah
From G3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication reversal (of [another’s] decision): – repentance.It is the reversal of rebellion which is obedience
You are reading your theology into texts – the same thing that you accuse others of.
Hi mk,
Just show where it says all men who have lived will be saved and all arguments will cease.
Till then it is vain and presumptuous folly.
We should not do that stuff.Nick
For as in adam all die that is in adam = all are dead
IN CHRIST (who is the resurrection and the life) = all ALIVEThat is what Jesus came to do – to give life
Those who do not obey now are not saved from wrath but they are given the free gift of life through Christ because he is the lifeYou need to trust the Holy Spirit to guide you when you read a passage of scripture and study it and not bring preconceived ideas into it.
Every one has preconceived ideas – you need to put them aside and follow the Holy Spirit while looking and studying the scriptures. Fear of being deceived and not trusting the Holy Spirit will keep you bound to deception.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2008,16:37) Hi mk,
Just show where it says all men who have lived will be saved and all arguments will cease.
Till then it is vain and presumptuous folly.
We should not do that stuff.
Nk.
Shame, you should know these scriptures by heart.…1Tim.2:3-4 …3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God,
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.and
…1Tim.4:9-11 …9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching.Your welcome!
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 13 2008,16:48) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2008,16:37) Hi mk,
Just show where it says all men who have lived will be saved and all arguments will cease.
Till then it is vain and presumptuous folly.
We should not do that stuff.
Nk.
Shame, you should know these scriptures by heart.…1Tim.2:3-4 …3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God,
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.and
…1Tim.4:9-11 …9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is theSaviour of all mankind,
11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching.Your welcome!
Chosenone,Thanks!!
G2309
θέλω, ἐθέλω
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: – desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).It seems that wills is an active word meaning will/determine/desire etc rather than passive of preferring/choosing (but leaving it up to others to decide)
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 13 2008,16:47) Nick For as in adam all die that is in adam = all are dead
IN CHRIST (who is the resurrection and the life) = all ALIVEThat is what Jesus came to do – to give life
Those who do not obey now are not saved from wrath but they are given the free gift of life through Christ because he is the lifeYou need to trust the Holy Spirit to guide you when you read a passage of scripture and study it and not bring preconceived ideas into it.
Every one has preconceived ideas – you need to put them aside and follow the Holy Spirit while looking and studying the scriptures. Fear of being deceived and not trusting the Holy Spirit will keep you bound to deception.
Hi MK,
Indeed as the letter of Paul to the saved in Corinth points out all of them are saved in Christ.Of course all men have to come to Christ to be reborn into him and it is not gifted to the heathen rebels.
When Christ said, 'you must be born again', it was to the nation of Israel, which will take place when He (god), makes the “New Covenant” with them again. See Heb.8:10-13 …10 “For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days,” the Lord is saying: “Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.
11 And by no means should each be teaching his fellow citizen, And each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord!' For all shall be acquainted with Me, From their little to their great,
12 For I shall be propitious to their injustices, And of their sins and their lawlessnesses should I under no circumstances still be reminded.”
13 In saying “new,” He has made the former old. Now that which is growing old and decrepit is near its disappearance.To say we must be “born again”, is a misunderstanding of scripture, When we are baptized with the “Holy Spirit” we are a “new creation”. 2Cor.5:17-19 …17 So that, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the primitive passed by. Lo! there has come new!
18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.Blessings.
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