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GB,
Where is this plan written?O you mean what God wants?
That is not His plan of course.You must be careful quoting Him.
Nick……we all know repentance leads to obedience, the question was What (causes) repents is it, GOD GRACE or our own so-called “free choices”?
peace……………gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 09 2008,12:28) GGB,
Where is this plan written?O you mean what God wants?
That is not His plan of course.You must be careful quoting Him.
Nick…..where is it written what God wills is (NOT) his plan., Jesus the son of man came to (SAVE) the WORLD as He said not to condemn it But you seem to think He God for some reason is not (ABLE to carry out His WILL), Let me go over this very slowly and read it slowly so it might sink in,……..For…..(GOD)…..(.DOES)…..(ALL)….. THINGS…..AFTER…..THE…COUNCIL……OF ……(HIS) ……OWN…..(WILL).Now with that understanding …..FOR GOD IS NOT (WILLING) THAT (ANY) PARISH.
Nick are you just trying to obstinate or do you not understand scripture. God's will is for every one to repent and be saved and guess what he has the (POWER) to bring it about. God and Jesus are in the saving business, not destroying but saving. It's hard for me to believe with the hundreds of Scriptures quoted here you still can't not get it.
May God bless you to understand Nick………..love and peace to you ………………gene
GB,
So we have to find something that is not written to find truth?
Throw in a bit of logic and Bob's your uncle?Hi MK:
You say:
Quote now (saved from wrath) or in the end after receiving wrath for ungodly deeds commited reaping what has Please explain with scripture to support your statement.
Thanks.
GB,
God's will and God's plan are not the same thing.
God's will takes many formsRomans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.Nick…..I really don't know were you got that idea from, theres is no scripture that says God will is not His Plan, Just the opposite GOD'S will is His Plan. Let's do this one more time….God (DOES) (ALL) (THINGS) after the council of His (WILL), GOD WILL involves His Plans , that what HIS PLAN IS< it 's HIS WILL being DONE. Can't you get that brother. If God does all after His will then His will is done.
love and peace………………..gene
Nick…….if i were to remove all your logic process you would simple be a zombie. You really should think about what your saying. God gave us logic to reason with, without it we would just be robots only doing what we are programed to do Having no reasoning ability's , i don't know where you are getting all this stuff from it certainly isn't scripture. The spirit of God guides our logic process if YOU have His Spirit, you have His logic also. “let this MIND be in you, that includes HIS LOGIC ALSO
Nick don't you understand this Brother………………..gene
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 09 2008,13:38) Hi MK: You say:
Quote now (saved from wrath) or in the end after receiving wrath for ungodly deeds commited reaping what has Please explain with scripture to support your statement.
Thanks.
Read all of Romans 5 & 6Rom 5:6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.The wages of sin is death – if we do not crucify our body of sin/lust/greed all the works of the flesh now before physical death we are subject to the second death.
Gal 6:7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 09 2008,15:30) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 09 2008,13:38) Hi MK: You say:
Quote now (saved from wrath) or in the end after receiving wrath for ungodly deeds commited reaping what has Please explain with scripture to support your statement.
Thanks.
Read all of Romans 5 & 6Rom 5:6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.The wages of sin is death – if we do not crucify our body of sin/lust/greed all the works of the flesh now before physical death we are subject to the second death.
Gal 6:7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Hi MK,
To whom was the letter of Paul to the Romans addressed? Rom1
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Surely you would not apply these words to those who are outside of the body of Christ? Their faith does not resound around the world does it.
Please be mindful of context.Nick,
He was addressing the Romans but when he said Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
he didn't mean that by the offence that judgement only came upon the Romans. The context he was telling the Romans what the situation of salvation was.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 09 2008,15:04) Nick…….if i were to remove all your logic process you would simple be a zombie. You really should think about what your saying. God gave us logic to reason with, without it we would just be robots only doing what we are programed to do Having no reasoning ability's , i don't know where you are getting all this stuff from it certainly isn't scripture. The spirit of God guides our logic process if YOU have His Spirit, you have His logic also. “let this MIND be in you, that includes HIS LOGIC ALSO Nick don't you understand this Brother………………..gene
lol ….. well saidGB,
What was not meant was that all men are forgiven by the actiion of Jesus because that would nullify scripture.Jn3
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Faith is the key
Nick….Jesus also said if he is lifted up He shall draw (ALL) men unto Him. Again God has concluded all under sin that He might have mercy on (ALL)> Again, for Christ died for our sins , and (NOT OURS ONLY) , but for the sins of the whole world.
John 3: 21, But he that doeth truth comesth to the light, that his deeds may be manifested, (THAT THEY ARE WROUGHT (DONE) BY GOD) The word (in) can just as easily rendered BY or through.
and Faith is the key, but even that is given by GOD.
Nick some how you seam to think we are saying all men (ARE) saved now, we are not saying that, but that they will be ultimately because that is the will and desire of GOD as I have shown you brother.
love and peace to you and yours Nick……………………gene
Nick,
and And after judgement comes repentance comes life.
G2919
κρίνω
krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: – avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): – accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.You seem to think judgement = eternal torment – that is not what the word means – When people are judged they reap what thy have sown finite beings can not reap infinite punishment, the wages of sin is death (finite) and the gift of God is life
Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.As Gene said we are not saying that unbelievers are saved now because by the unbelieving they are not saved from the wrath to come.
But when you se in Isaiah that the purpose of wrath (judgements) is to bring righteousness ) repentance brings that righteousness and after repentance comes life.
Nick,
Gods will is greater than our will – Gods will is going to draw all to him (eventually) and all will bow (not forced to their knees but in obedience)
John 12:32
G1670
ἑλκύω, ἕλκω
helkuō helkō
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): – draw. Compare G1667.1 Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Subdud and subject (same greek word)
G5293
ὑποτάσσω
hupotassō
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: – be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 09 2008,17:25) GB,
What was not meant was that all men are forgiven by the actiion of Jesus because that would nullify scripture.Jn3
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Faith is the key
NH.
You will never understand the truth, if you keep thinking that all scripture is about us. Under the 'old covenant', it was for Israel only. The four gospels, Matthew,Mark, Luke, and John, are still the continuation of God and Israel. Jesus was the prophesied “Messia”, who was rejected by them, and consequently God turned away from them, to the 'nations'.
What I am trying to tell you, is that quoting scripture from the OT. and four gospels, as being to us in this present era, is useless. “All scripture is FOR us, but not all is ABOUT us.”
Read Matt.15:24, Ro.15:8, & Ro.15:16 for confirmation of this fact.Blessings.
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