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Welcome Silentbeard
Quote (Silentbeard @ July 24 2008,07:29)
Also, how about verses that it doesn't matte abou their context because their meaning is plain such as Revelation 14:11 and Mark 9:48. Both those clearly state that Hell is eternal, it never ends. And then Revelation 21:8 shows us who is in this eternal Hell. Quick note, all the verses I am using are in my previous post… so just check them out there.
You are correct in pointing out that CO is in error for her belief there is more than one Gospel. She admits herself Yeshua died for the sins of all. That is the Gospel according to Pauls own words…Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:1-4However, I disagree with your stand on “eternal torment” for God's creation.
Every scripture in the NT that you can muster to support that doctrine are ambiguous.
The Greek word for “aiōnios” comes from the root word “aion” which is interpretated as…
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
It is used AV — ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5
The original Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, by seventy scholars, and hence called “The Septuagint,” B.C. 200-300,(1) and the Hebrew word Olam is, in almost all cases, translated AiónAiónios etc., (Aíwv, Aíwvios,) so that the two words may be regarded as synonymous with each other. In the New Testament the same wordsAión and its derivatives, are the original Greek of the English words,Eternal, Everlasting, Forever, etc.. So that when we ascertain the real meaning of Aión, we have settled the sense of those English words in which the doctrine of Endless Punishment is erroneously taught. It is not going to far to say that if the Greek Aión – Aiónios does not denote endless duration, then endless punishment is not taught in the Bible. We proceed to show that the sense of interminable duration does not reside in the word. Source.
The Bible speaks of at least 5 “aions” and perhaps many more. If there were “aions” in the past. This must mean that each one of them have ended for they are now past! The New Testament writers spoke of “the present wicked aion” which ended during that very generation. Obviously, it was followed by another “aion”– the “aion” in which we presently live. If there are “aions” to come, it must mean that this one we live in will also end.
There is a verse which says “the consummation of the aions” showing that each “aion” ends. So how can they be eternal?
There is “the coming eon” (Matt.10:30, Luke 18:30
There is “the present wicked eon” (Gal.1:4)
There is “the oncoming eons (future)(Eph.2:7)
There is “the conclusion of the eon (present) (Mt.13:39,40)
There is “the secret concealed from the eons (past) (Eph.3:9)Plainly, the Greek word “aion” transliterated “eon” cannot mean “eternal.” A study into the Greek of the Biblical period and before will bear this out.
“Aionion” is the adjective of the noun “aion.”
Since grammar rules mandate an adjective CANNOT take on a greater force than its noun form, it is evident that “aionion” in any of its adjective forms (ios, ou, on) CANNOT possible mean “everlasting” or anything remotely indicating eternity or unending time.
For example, “hourly” cannot mean “pertaining to days, weeks, months, or years. The word MUST mean “pertaining to an hour.” Therefore, “aionion,” the adjective form of the noun “aion” which clearly means a period of indeterminate TIME, CANNOT mean, “forever and ever, eternal, everlasting, eternity, etc) or other words which connote timelessness or unending ages. Source.
Also, something to consider is that all NT doctrine can be found in OT scriptures in types or shadows.
You will be hard pressed to fine eternal torment taught in Hebrew scriptures.
Also, if something as serious as eternal torment would happen to a man that sins, why wouldnt God reveal that to Adam and Eve? But notice it is not written in the laws of Moses or the Prophets! Sure would have been a deterent dont you think?
However, God does tell us in the OT scriptures and the NT sriptures that the punishment for sin is “death”.
The punishment matches the crime.
Not to mention if man has to spend eternity in torments for his sin, then Yeshua didnt pay the full price for sin, for he would have to pay the full price of the penalty and spend eternity in torments to match the penalty for us.
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
What of this verse?
John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting [166] life.Hi WJ,
Perhaps it means LIFE OF THE EON-the millenium?'ZOE' alone where is appears in scripture for life MEANS ETERNAL LIFE ANYWAY.
Hi Sb.
Sorry for the delay, we have had our grandsons over for a week or so, ages 11 & 12, from Kamloops, about 140 miles from here. They are quite a hand full, but are a joy to have around.
Now, about Matt.25:32. This is about when Christ returns to earth in His Glory, when He will be “King”, ruling with the Jews over all the “nations”.
The many judgments in the Scriptures should be carefully distinguished as to time and place and participants and the attending circumstances. There is no “general judgment”, for the saints are judged in the cross of Christ. The individual judgment of the unbeliever for his sins does not take place in this life, but in resurrection. All mankind except those who are Christ's will be raised from the dead to stand before the great white throne, which is not set up until after the coming kingdom eon has run its course (Rev.20:11). The judgment here presented differs in time, in place, in character and in purpose. It occurs at the commencement of the kingdom, at His coming in glory, while the great white throne session does not take place until after the thousand years. This judgment is on the earth. The earth will flee before the great white throne (Rev.20:11). Living nations will appear before the Son of Mankind, but only the dead come before the later tribunal. The nations are judged as such, not their sins, but according to their treatment of Israel during the time of their affliction.
Now about Mark.7:26. Jesus said to her, “for it is not ideal to take the childrens bread and cast it to the puppies”. Meaning she had no privleges as has Israel. But she replied, “Yes, Lord. For the puppies also, underneath the table, are eating scraps from the little children”. Meaning she recognized her inferiority to the Jews. Jesus healed her daughter because of her acknowledgement as to her place. This does not mean that Jesus teaching was to gentiles at this time. When God is judging the earth no greater act of righteousness can be done than to feed and shelter His oppressed people. Each faithful Israelite stands in the place of Christ toward the nations.
Now Rev.14:11. 11 And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name.
Notice the correct translation. The greek word for this is eon, which is not “everlasting”, it is never endless. It is very common in many versions of the bible to see this error in translation.
Now Rev.21:8. Refering to the “lake of fire”, is quite clear, it says, “which is the second death”. Simply put, the “lake of fire” is the “second death”. At the consumation, Christ will abolish death.
Now you state, ” you have yet to answer my argument about Gods' infinite worth requiring infinate punishment”. I'm not sure where you got this statement from, is it scripture, or something you feel I have said, but I'm not sure why you think I should have an answer to that statement, I really don't know what you mean.
About Ro.3:26. I will copy and paste a portion of Ro.3 from scripture….21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets),
22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God.
24 Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus
25 (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God),
26 toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law?
28 Of works? No! But through faith's law. For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.
I'm not sure, but I see it as saying we are justified by “JESUS CHRISTS FAITH”, not ours.This is what I believe, I'm not sure as to whether I've answered all your concerns, if not, say in your reply and I will try again.
But I must state this, I am not infallable, prone to error as any human is, and if I have some opinions that you disagree with, I don't mind exchanging ideas with you.God Bless, Jerry.
Mar 9:48 “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
That is all I am going to say about your reference to the original greek WorshippingJesus. Try and tell me that doesn't mean forever.
As for your argument that Jesus would have had to be punished for eternity –
Hebrews 7:27-28 “He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.”Hebrews 9:12-14 “He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. ”
Hebrews 10:10-13 “And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. ”
It appears that Christ offered Himself up through the Eternal Spirit once and for all, paying the infinite price. Because He offered Himself up through the Eternal Spirit, thus He meets the criteria of the infinite punishment. In other words
-infinite+ infinite= 0 Christ paid the infinte cost.Chosenone, I understand the delay… kids are a handful, I should know… I'm a teen
You are speaking the truth, Jesus will abolish death, but let us first look at what death is. Death would best be described as seperation as seen in James 2:26 “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.”
So the definition of death is this- seperation of two things. The death we experince in this life is seperation of body and spirit (which Christ will abolish), but the second death that te unregenerant will face is seperation of man from the presence of God's love. God will be present in hell, His wrath though, not His love. Christ in no place says He will abolish that.
As for the passage in Romans, you put an emphasis on the part about Jesus Christ's faith, yet you ignore the very next words. Look at it again-
22 “yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,”It says that this righteousness is put on those who believe, all who believe. Furthermore, it is also translated- “faith in Jesus Christ” or “the faithfulness of Jesus Christ”. Depending on your translation will determine what you make of it. For the record, most translations use “faith in Jesus Christ”. That doesn't mean it is right, but…
For the translation of “the faithfulness of Jesus Christ”. I would completely agree, He was faithfull unto death, even death on a cross. His faithfulness brought about our redemption.
I will state my argument again-
God is infinite in glory and honor and worth, if He wasn't, He wouldn't be God. That is the bases for the argument. Now, if I punch a hobo, what will happen? I will get punched back. If I punch the president, what will happen? I will get attacked by the secret service, some jail time and a nice interegation involving questions about terrorists.Why would that happen? Because the president has more value and worth than the president.
Now, lets say I go up to God and punch Him (sin agianst Him), what would the punishment be for punching a God with infinite value? Would the punishment not be infinite?
God bless,
SilentHi Silent beard.
Quote (Silentbeard @ Aug. 05 2008,13:50) Mar 9:48 “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.” That is all I am going to say about your reference to the original greek WorshippingJesus. Try and tell me that doesn't mean forever.
That’s all you should say my friend. The scripture you quote is ambiguous, and is not proof of eternal torments for the souls of men.You really should do some study concerning the false doctrine of “eternal torment”.
First of all the word “worm” describes literally the worms that eat dead corpses. Secondly, the statement “is not quenched” simply means the fire of God cannot be put out until it has consumed what it is burning. The following article should give you some info on the scripture you quote and its relationship to the OT scriptures…
Their Worm Dieth Not …
The Bible says that hell-fire will not be quenched and that “their worm dieth not.” (See Mark 9:43-48 and Isaiah 66:24). Doesn’t this prove the immortality of the soul?Even if we should agree that unquenched means endlessly burning, we would not find it necessary to accept the doctrine that at death an immortal soul is freed from man and lives apart from the body. These texts do not speak of disembodied souls, or spirits, burning. The Bible paints a picture of literal, wicked men at the judgment day being “cast into the lake of fire.” (See Revelation 20.)
Christ speaks of the “whole body” being “cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:29-30.) If it be replied that the body would be destroyed by the flames, and therefore only the spirit would be left, we ask for the Bible proof that spirits, or souls, are impervious to fire. Christ declared we should “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28. If “destroy” means consume as regards the “body”, we demand very clear proof if we are expected to believe that “destroy” means to leave unconsumed as regards the “soul.” A failure to produce such proof really takes the whole point out of the objection based on Mark 9 and Isaiah 66.
In Mark 9:43-48 Christ quite evidently refers to the same judgment fires as those described in Isaiah 66:24, where we read: “They [the righteous] shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses [“dead bodies,” A.R.V.] of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.” We are told in so many words that the agencies of “work” and “fire” are working, not upon disembodied spirits, but upon bodies, dead bodies.
The word “hell” used in Mark 9:43-48 is from the Greek word Gehenna. This term, as we have learned, is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Hinnom, the name of a valley near Jerusalem, “used as a place to cast carcasses of animals and malefactors, which were consumed by fire constantly kept up.” (See Liddell and Scott’s Greek Lexicon.)
Christ here uses this valley of Hinnom to teach His hearers the fate that awaits the wicked. Certainly the Jews who heard His words could not possibly have obtained any idea of wicked, disembodied souls endlessly suffering. They saw in Hinnom dead bodies being devoured by flames, or if the flames did not reach them, then by worms, those ever-present agents of destruction and disintegration. The fact that the fires of Gehenna were ever kept burning, were “not quenched,” was the surest proof that whatever was cast into them would be entirely consumed. To declare that if a fire keeps ever burning, then whatever is cast into it keeps ever living, is to go contrary both to the evidence of our senses and to the testimony of Scripture.
The question may now be asked: If whatever is cast into this fire is completely consumed, why will the fire always be kept burning? The answer is, it will not. A city-wide conflagration once enveloped Chicago. If we should describe that fire by saying that the flames could not be quenched, would you conclude that Chicago was still burning? No, you would simply understand that the fire raged until it had devoured everything within reach. Common knowledge makes unnecessary the additional statement that the fire itself then died down.
Source.Quote (Silentbeard @ Aug. 05 2008,13:50) Hebrews 10:10-13 “And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. ” It appears that Christ offered Himself up through the Eternal Spirit once and for all, paying the infinite price. Because He offered Himself up through the Eternal Spirit, thus He meets the criteria of the infinite punishment. In other words
-infinite+ infinite= 0 Christ paid the infinte cost.
It appears that you have changed the meaning of this scripture. You say, ” Christ offered Himself up through the Eternal Spirit once and for all”,The scripture reads, “”And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”.
The sacrifice Yeshua made was for all of mankind, therefore it was for eternity because men will be eternally forgiven. Yeshua died for the “Sin of the world”.
You also said, “It appears that Christ offered Himself up through the Eternal Spirit once and for all, paying the infinite price.”
You add the word “infinite”, implying Christ paid the infinite price for men who would spend eternity in torments, yet there is no mention of “eternal torment” in these scriptures but that he paid the price “once for all” for mans sin. (But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins,)The wages of sin is death.
Yeshua’s death was for sin and its penalty, which is death, (Rom 6:23), and not for ‘eternal torment”.
Yeshua came to seek and to save that which was lost. He left the 99 to get the one. Being that God cannot fail and that nothing is impossible for him, then anything short of 100% would mean Yeshua failed in his mission. None shall be lost.
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment–to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. Eph 1:9, 10Blessings!
WJ
Hi Silentbeard
Quote (Silentbeard @ Aug. 05 2008,13:50)
Now, lets say I go up to God and punch Him (sin agianst Him), what would the punishment be for punching a God with infinite value? Would the punishment not be infinite?God bless,
SilentNo. Because the scriptures give us the penalty for sin.
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:17
God never mentions eternal torment to Adam or to Moses in the law.
For the wages of sin is death; (not eternal torment), but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
Something changed between Genesis and Mat 2541Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The lake of fire was not originally for mankind.
Rejection of the saviour is the sin that kills men now in the second death.The son of God brought good news but also bad news
Jn3
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. ….
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jn16
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Nick….It says the angles that fell are reserved in chains to be Judged not eternally burned up in a literal fire. First of all a fire could not heart them. You need to makes a complete study on the word FIRE as used in scripture and I think you will find overwhelming evidence that it represents a form of (Intense Judgment) and is not a literal Fire at all. imo
WJ….i agree with you on this, to me the worm that dieth not, is representing our WILL”S and if they aren't put to death, then the fire (intense Judgments) of God never goes out. Remember it says if thy eye offend (prevent) you pluck it out for it is better that you go into the kingdom with one eye then two have two and be cast into the fire (intense Judgment) where the worm (WILL) dieth not and the fire (intense Judgment) is never quenched . what this means is as long as our wills are contrary to God's we will come under intense judgement. The problem many have is they view everything to literal and are not getting the symbolic meanings. IMO
peace to you…………….gene
Nick…..There is scripture the back up this point, Job 25:6 …>” how much less a man that is a worm, or the son of man which is a worm”.
Isa 41:14…> ” fear not you worm Jacob and you men of Israel.
Isa 66:24…> ” and they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of men that have transgressed against Me, for (BECAUSE) (THEIR) WORM shall not die, neither or (or as a result) shall their fire be quenched.
If a man is a worm what about him would God find that way. of course it would have to be His WILL, it is our wills that can prevent us and those who hold on to them will inter into intense Judgment and that judgement will not cease until the worm (WILL DIES), “who so ever shall save (HIS) life shall loose it, but whosoever Shall lose His life Shall save it.” It is incumbent on all to conform to the one and ONLY true WILL and that cannot be done without giving up our wills, like Jesus did. WE need to have that same atitude as Jesus had. and bu the GRACE of God we will. “for it si GOD who WORKS in you (BOTH) TO WILL and do of (HIS) good pleasure.
Peace to you and yours……….gene
Speaking from the perspective of a parent, I wouldn't want any of my children to perish even if they were evil.
I love to give second chances…..sometimes third chances……okay I've been known to give fourth chances……
Love covers all sin.
MandyNot3in1…..Mandy, you would not condemn your children to eternal death no matter what they did and neither would I and How much more loving is GOD then us, He did not create us in this weaken state to be thrown in to a literal lake of fire and watch 95% of his children scream out into all eternity in pain and anguish for ever, People who picture GOD that way are picturing a monster not a loving and Kind and forgiving FATHER….>imo
love and peace to you and yours………..gene
Hi GB,
Should we extrapolate from how nice we are to what God must be like
and write doctrines on that basis?Better to go by what is written.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 11 2008,04:04) Nick….It says the angles that fell are reserved in chains to be Judged not eternally burned up in a literal fire. First of all a fire could not heart them. You need to makes a complete study on the word FIRE as used in scripture and I think you will find overwhelming evidence that it represents a form of (Intense Judgment) and is not a literal Fire at all. imo
I agree Gene,
Fire is also a means to purification in many places in the bible.Tim
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 12 2008,10:04) Hi GB,
Should we extrapolate from how nice we are to what God must be like
and write doctrines on that basis?Better to go by what is written.
I see your side, Nick. But we have also determined here that “what is written” has been tampered with a bit.If we know how to give good gifts to our children (and we are evil) how much more will our heavenly Father give us good things if we ask? If we wouldn't want our children to perish because they are evil……are we better than God, the Father? Do we have more mercy than him?
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