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I'm sorry Brother Gene..but I think NIck is right..you are piecing together 2 or 3 scriptures and calling it truth…here is what the bible REALLY says on this topic…
THIS FIRST SET OF SCRIPTURES SHOWS WHAT WE HAVE TO DO ..AFTER..WE ARE BORN AGAIN…NOT BEFORE>>BUT AFTER
Hebrews 3:14 …14We have come to share in Christ IF we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
Hebrews 12:1… 1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with PERSEVERANCE the race marked out for us.
Matthew 10:22…22All men will hate you because of me, but he who STANDS FIRM to the end will be saved.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27… 24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
1 Corinthians 10:9…9We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.
Philippians 3:12-14 … 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I PRESS ON to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 4:7-8…7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have KEPT the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
Revelation 2:10…10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Philippians 2:12… 12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
NOTICE THE JUDGEMENT OF THOSE WHO DO NOT DO GODS WILL
Hebrews 10:26-29… 26IF we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
2 Thessalonians 1:9 …9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
Revelation 21:8 …8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Matthew 7:13-14… 13″Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
I'm sorry brother GENE..not only do these scriptures disprove your doctrine of universal salvation..but also “no free will”
Hi:
DK quoted part of the following scripture, but I would like to quote the rest of it because it disproves universal salvation.
Quote 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power942767…..where does it say we are troubled with fear and unbelief, It says we are troubled not with fear though, and if you understood Flaming fire as Intense Judgments and again its on them that KNOW (NOT) GOD, where does it say taking vengeance on them that Know GOD?
2thes 2:16 ' now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and our God and Father who has loved us and given us (EVERLASTING) Consolation and good hope BY GRACE, comfort your hearts and ESTABLISH you in (EVER) good word and work.
None of what you or DK said disproved universal Salvation. In order for you to disprove it you would have to examine every scripture i quoted and show where they did not say what i quoted and said they did. If they are there then either accept them or reject them its your choice. I personally have not come to that mountain to fear and Trimble as they and some here have. But why can't you see your applying scriptures to direct at unbelievers who haven't had their eyes opened yet, and trying to make it fit believers. You simply cause doubt in the minds of Gods children and are coming form a spirit of unbelief yourselves.
IMO
To All…….> who think God is incapable of saving his elect, or think its up to yourself to effect your salvation, Pick out which of these scriptures you want to through out of you bibles.
The gentiles who have (NOT) the law but (DO) the things contained in them show the law of God written on there Hearts (BY) the Hand of GOD.
The race is not to him who wills but to GOD who Justifies the ungodly.
He who began a work in you will see it unto completion.
The calling of God is without revocation.
God who would have (ALL) men SAVED.
for He (GOD) WORKS IN US BOTH TO WILL AND DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE.
I am the potter and you the clay and does not the potter have power over the clay to make as He sees if.
Unless the Lord shall build the house the weary builders toil in vain.
God has concluded (ALL) under sin that He might Have MERCY ON ALl.
Blessed is he whom the Lord (WILL IMPUTE SIN) who's iniquities he has coverer.
The Lord will have mercy on whom he will and whom he hardens he hardens.
And to show it's by election and not by works the two twins were not yet born and GOD said Esau have i hated and Jacob have i loved.
I will take out of them the stony heart and give them a heart of flesh and will write my laws in ther inward parts and they shall be my people and i their GOD.
The race is not always to the swift.
You did not chose me but I chose you.
if the lord be for you who can be against you.
My sheep hear my voice and they will (NOT) follow a false Shepard's for the sheep know the voice of the true Sheppard .
God has not called us to destruction but salvation through Jesus Christ our lord.
For by (GRACE) are you (SAVED) and that (NOT) OF YOURSELVES, it is a (GIFT) of GOD.
For by works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
I could go no and list more but i think this is sufficient for now, So now tell me how many should we through out of the bible so you can provocate your fear based salvation.
IMO………..gene
Brother Gene..its not that we don't recognize your couple of scriptures…it thats you interpret them wrong…lemme help you understand..
There is a difference between what GOD says has done and will do for mankind…and what we have to do as individuals..
First of all your you mention flaming fire and say it means “intense judgements”..WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? Your interpretation is not found in scripture…ANYWHERE..
And then you totally ignore verse 9..which is the next verse that says…eternal destruction is what awaits those…
Brother Gene..I'm not trying to judge you..but you have a bad habit of molding your interpretations to fit your doctrine…
This is like the 4th time I have pointed this out to you…
Flaming fire and eternal destruction mean simply what the bible says it means..that those who are against GOd will be cut off…here is PROOF..ok lets see how this verse (2 thess 1:8-9) reads in greek:
en puri flogov, didontov ekdikhsin toiv mh eidosin qeon kai toiv mh upakouousin tw euaggeliw tou kuriou hmwn Ihsou,oitinev dikhn tisousin oleqron aiwnion apo proswpou tou kuriou kai apo thv dochv thv isxuov autou,
Ok…lets do a literal translation:
8in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9who shall suffer justice — destruction age-during — from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
ok…lets look at the greek meanings of the words in question:
vengeance (eÍkdiðkhsiv)-a revenging, vengeance, punishment
punished (tiðnw)- to pay, to recompense
to pay penalty, suffer punishmenteverlasting (aiÎwñniov)- without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlastingdestruction (oàleqrov)- from a primary ollumi meaning to destroy, a prolonged form. ruin, destroy, death
So lets put it all together…
“Everlasting” is something without beginning (Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2), without beginning or end (Genesis 21:33; Isaiah 26:4; 40:28; Hebrews 9:14), and without end (2 Corinthians 5:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:16; 1 Timothy 6:16; Hebrews 9:12; 13:20; Revelations 14:6).
The use of “everlasting” here shows that God’s judgment is final with no appeal (Hebrews 6:2) and is “unquenchable” (Mark 9:43). This is not remedial but retributive justice. It is not temporary but final judgment. It is of unlimited duration of time–eternal, as God’s eternal power and divine nature are “everlasting” (Romans 1:20; 16:26).
“Destruction” means ruin, death.Paul uses “destruction” in thisverse and 1 Thessalonians 5:3 to describe the effect of God’s judgments in the Day of the Lord and the Second Coming of Christ. The nature of “destruction” in this verse is that it is “everlasting.”
So you see brother Gene..the bible means simply what it says…all it takes is a little research to prove it
Here ya go tho..a few commentaries on this verse…maybe you will believe somebody a little more famous
People's New Testament
1:9 Who shall be punished. Those who obey not the gospel shall be punished. The punishment is
everlasting destruction. This does not mean annihilation, but an eternal banishment from the
presence of the Lord. In Matthew, the doom of the wicked is Depart from me (Mt 25:41). The saints are ever with the Lord (1Th 4:17); the wicked are driven forever from his presence.
Wesley's Notes
1:9 From the glory of his power – Tremble, ye stout – hearted. Everlasting destruction – As there can be no end of their sins, (the same enmity against God continuing,) so neither of their punishment; sin and its punishment running parallel throughout eternity itself. They must of necessity, therefore, be cut off from all good, and all possibility of it. From the presence of the Lord – Wherein chiefly consists the salvation of the righteous. What unspeakable punishment is implied even in falling short of this, supposing that nothing more were implied in his taking vengeance!
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
9. Who-Greek, “persons who,” &c.
destruction from the presence of the Lord-driven far from His presence [Alford]. The sentence emanating from Him in person, sitting as Judge [Bengel], and driving them far from Him (Mt 25:41; Re 6:16; 12:14; compare 1Pe 3:12; Isa 2:10, 19). “The presence of the Lord” is the source whence the sentence goes forth; “the glory of His power” is the instrument whereby the sentence is carried into execution [Edmunds]. But Alford better interprets the latter clause (see 2Th 1:10), driven “from the manifestation of His power in the glorification of His saints.” Cast out from the presence of the Lord is the idea at the root of eternal death, the law of evil left to its unrestricted working, without one counteracting influence of the presence of God, who is the source of all light and holiness (Isa 66:24; Mr 9:44).
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
1:5-10 Religion, if worth anything, is worth every thing; and those have no religion, or none worth having, or know not how to value it, cannot find their hearts to suffer for it. We cannot by all our sufferings, any more than by our services, merit heaven; but by our patience under sufferings, we are prepared for the promised joy. Nothing more strongly marks a man for eternal ruin, than a spirit of persecution and enmity to the name and people of God. God will trouble those that trouble his people. And there is a rest for the people of God; a rest from sin and sorrow. The certainty of future recompence is proved by the righteousness of God. The thoughts of this should be terrible to wicked men, and support the righteous. Faith, looking to the great day, is enabled partly to understand the book of providence, which appears confused to unbelievers. The Lord Jesus will in that day appear from heaven. He will come in the glory and power of the upper world. His light will be piercing, and his power consuming, to all who in that day shall be found as chaff. This appearance will be terrible to those that know not God, especially to those who rebel against revelation, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the great crime of multitudes, the gospel is revealed, and they will not believe it; or if they pretend to believe, they will not obey it. Believing the truths of the gospel, is in order to our obeying the precepts of the gospel. Though sinners may be long spared, they will be punished at last. They did sin's work, and must receive sin's wages. Here God punishes sinners by creatures as instruments; but then, it will be destruction from the Almighty; and who knows the power of his anger? It will be a joyful day to some, to the saints, to those who believe and obey the gospel. In that bright and blessed day, Christ Jesus will be glorified and admired by his saints. And Christ will be glorified and admired in them. His grace and power will be shown, when it shall appear what he has purchased for, and wrought in, and bestowed upon those who believe in him. Lord, if the glory put upon thy saints shall be thus admired, how much more shalt thou be admired, as the Bestower of that glory! The glory of thy justice in the damnation of the wicked will be admired, but not as the glory of thy mercy in the salvation of believers. How will this strike the adoring angels with holy admiration, and transport thy admiring saints with eternal rapture! The meanest believer shall enjoy more than the most enlarged heart can imagine while we are here; Christ will be admired in all those that believe, the meanest bel
iever not excepted.942767………Yes i am saying all will be saved (YET AS BY FIRE) Intense judgments. Concerning this (FIRE TRIAL) which has tried you as if some strange thing has happened unto you. And again judgement begins at the house of GOD. But it will extend to all sooner or later . For you shall all be SALTED WITH FIRE. OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE and he is the maker and sustainer and Judge of all. Why do you think it says the Lord bless you AND KEEP YOU. If you can keep yourself you don't need him do you, as most “Christians” today think and act. Jesus said I can do NOTHING OF MYSELF< I wonder why He said that if it was all up to Him.
God is not willing that any parish and I think i will Just believe that He is able to save everyone even the most vile of people. If he can save a wretch like me there is hope for everyone. I know i am still not perfect but i will never put my trust in me for anything that has to do with my salvation. I look to GOD the Father through Christ for that. The problem here is some here think a i am saying we don't produce fruits of the spirit in our lives, something which i never said. If we have Gods Spirit in us we will be caused by that Spirit to do Gods will, because of the working of GRACE in US> IMO
Dk…..It not a couple if you want i can get you around a hundred or more. The problem your having is not knowing GOD's nature as described in scripture. If God said he is not willing any parish, why do some of you think God should cause his creation to parish them, I have to ask what kind of spirit is that from. God is Love and Merciful and kind and give us a heart to love and serve Him and works in Us to will and do His good pleasure, why can't you people accept that , that would be the question whats in your hearts. You all remind me of where it say “they profess GOD (BUT) DENY the POWER there of. You people really don't believe God is very capable of truly saving you and causing you to walk in his ways , you are self reliant not GOD reliant. I'll just believe the scriptures i quoted and the other hundred or so i didn't. IMO
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2008,14:25) 942767………Yes i am saying all will be saved (YET AS BY FIRE) Intense judgments. Concerning this (FIRE TRIAL) which has tried you as if some strange thing has happened unto you. And again judgement begins at the house of GOD. But it will extend to all sooner or later . For you shall all be SALTED WITH FIRE. OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE and he is the maker and sustainer and Judge of all. Why do you think it says the Lord bless you AND KEEP YOU. If you can keep yourself you don't need him do you, as most “Christians” today think and act. Jesus said I can do NOTHING OF MYSELF< I wonder why He said that if it was all up to Him. God is not willing that any parish and I think i will Just believe that He is able to save everyone even the most vile of people. If he can save a wretch like me there is hope for everyone. I know i am still not perfect but i will never put my trust in me for anything that has to do with my salvation. I look to GOD the Father through Christ for that. The problem here is some here think a i am saying we don't produce fruits of the spirit in our lives, something which i never said. If we have Gods Spirit in us we will be caused by that Spirit to do Gods will, because of the working of GRACE in US> IMO
Hi Gene:While it is true that some Christians will be saved through intense judgments because they will repent when God judges them. Some who think that they are teaching the truth will find that what they have been teaching is not true.
Quote 1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.These scriptures relate to Christians some who will be corrected through intense judgments and will be saved barely escaping with salvation but with no rewards. These judgments will have taken place prior to the Lord coming for the church.
The following scriptures relate to judgment which will take place after the Lord comes for the church.
Quote 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power2 Th 1:9 states that these “will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord”.
Apparently, you just aren't reading the scriptures that are being presented to you.
God Bless
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2008,14:47) Dk…..It not a couple if you want i can get you around a hundred or more. The problem your having is not knowing GOD's nature as described in scripture. If God said he is not willing any parish, why do some of you think God should cause his creation to parish them, I have to ask what kind of spirit is that from. God is Love and Merciful and kind and give us a heart to love and serve Him and works in Us to will and do His good pleasure, why can't you people accept that , that would be the question whats in your hearts. You all remind me of where it say “they profess GOD (BUT) DENY the POWER there of. You people really don't believe God is very capable of truly saving you and causing you to walk in his ways , you are self reliant not GOD reliant. I'll just believe the scriptures i quoted and the other hundred or so i didn't. IMO
Gene..there are not a hundred…there are only a couple people use to support this doctrine…Just because GOD does not want any to perish..does not mean that all won't…he just wishes all would respond to his grace and mercy..unfortunately..As jesus said…few find the road to GOD
942767…..I pay as much attention to them as you are to the ones i posted , I'll stay with the one i have posted thanks.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2008,14:47) Dk…..It not a couple if you want i can get you around a hundred or more. The problem your having is not knowing GOD's nature as described in scripture. If God said he is not willing any parish, why do some of you think God should cause his creation to parish them, I have to ask what kind of spirit is that from. God is Love and Merciful and kind and give us a heart to love and serve Him and works in Us to will and do His good pleasure, why can't you people accept that , that would be the question whats in your hearts. You all remind me of where it say “they profess GOD (BUT) DENY the POWER there of. You people really don't believe God is very capable of truly saving you and causing you to walk in his ways , you are self reliant not GOD reliant. I'll just believe the scriptures i quoted and the other hundred or so i didn't. IMO
Brother Gene..I notice you also seek out translations of the bible that seem on the surface to support your doctrine..do you ever read other translations? Do you ever check the koine greek to see what the bible writers intended for the scriptures to say?
How about the use of a concordance? Have you ever read up on the difference between classical greek and koine greek?
Have you ever read up on the difficulties in translating greek into english…and things you have to consider when taking up such a task?
The reason I ask these things is because I notice you stick to certain translations of certain scriptures when trying to prove your points…instead of cross-checking and relying on the essence of the hebrew and greek, and trying to find the true intention of what the writers were trying to say…
Remember…MOST translations have a some theological bias…aka the translators translated with a certain theological doctrine in mind…you have to beware of this brother Gene..
Honestly I think you don't do this because you don't want to see that you may possibly be mistaken…
DK………I have done that for years and have found there are many translations errors and i have said that for a long time. I had two greek translation Six or eight different bibles Study manuals not to mention i have bee studing scriptures for over forty five years now. I pretty much know what the bible says and not to mention my own personal relationship with God the Father, have had many many answered Prayer, So i am no novice. If what i posted is not in the bible then show me. If it is then accept them.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2008,15:06) 942767…..I pay as much attention to them as you are to the ones i posted , I'll stay with the one i have posted thanks.
Hi Gene:I wouldn't have replied to your posts if I had not read what you have posted.
I have quoted the scripture itself, therefore, if you are not paying any attention to the scriptures, you are not rejecting what I am saying to you, but what God is saying.
And so, that is between you and God.
God Bless
942767……my i say ditto to that. If you are not paying attention the scriptures i have posted your rejecting not me but what GOD Said.
and that is also between you and God.
and blessings to you too>
Hi All
OK, here is my two cents worth.
I part with GB on Calvinism in that I believe that man can freely choose to follow the calling or the drawing of God which is given to everyman on this side of the grave.
However, I do believe that God will eventually redeem all of his creation. Because all of creation was created by him and for him. How will he accomplish full reconcilliation is not completely clear and is not given, except there are scriptures that indicate this to be so.
Without going into those scriptures which I am sure most here know, I would like to just mention a couple of scenarios.
1. What purpose would God have in creating billions of souls only to cast the majority into eternal torment?
2. How would it be just for a loving Father to take a man or woman, (many may have never heard the truth), who lived say a 100 years in sin, (though he never asked to be born), and cast him into eternal torment? Even we as men require the punishment be equal to the crime!
3. If Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sin, (which many say is eternal torment, yet the scriptures say the punishment for sin is death), then for it to be a true payment he would have to spend eternity in torment himself.
4. If Jesus died for the “sin” of the world and yet the majority of mankind ends up in eternal torment, then it would seem that his sacrifice was powerless to save all.
5. Jesus said he left the 99 to save the one. Did he fail in saving the one? Scriptures say, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Isa 53:6
Therefore if he saved the one that was lost, that is 100%.
6. Scriptures also say, Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
If God is the God of all flesh, and he desires that all be saved, and Jesus died for the sin of all, and nothing is too hard for him, then God would be a failure if he did not save all.
7. Scripture says, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be **any more pain**: for the former things are passed away. Rev 21:4
How could there not be any pain any more if some of your loved ones or friends are in eternal torments?
What purpose would a God who is love, who doesn't even delight in the death of the wicked, what purpose would that God have in a perfect universe a little place called “hell” where the majority of mankind is in eternal torments because they said no to Yeshua?
A True Story
A teenage girl named Mary was a good kid. She had great grades in school. She respected her teachers and her parents. She never stole anything, and she always tried to be honest. She was involved in helping others in her community when she could. She turned away from drugs and tried to encourage others to do the same. She had goals to not have sex before marriage and wanted to someday raise a family.
At 16 she was a model child. One day about a month before her 17th birthday, Mary heard the message of Jesus Christ and that she needed to repent and be baptized and follow Christ. Mary said to herself, “I am just not ready for this Jesus thing” and she rejected the message. Two days later Mary was killed in a car accident. Mary died in her sins.
Another True Story
There was a man named Bob. Bob from his childhood was rebellious to everything his Dad and Mom tried to teach him. He disrespected his teachers and his Mom and Dad. He soon got into trouble with the law. At age 17 he dropped out of school and ended up in prison for shooting a man in the face for calling him a bastard. Bob served time got out of prison at 31 years of age. During his time in prison Bob heard the message of Jesus Christ and rejected it. Bob was a wicked man and hadn't learned anything while in prison. Back on the streets he raped and molested 12 girls and killed 6 of them before he was caught at age 52. Bob went back to prison with no chance of parole.
Bob grew old and got sick with cancer at age 79. A minister was called in and talked to Bob and shared with him that Jesus died for his sins and that if he would repent and be baptized God would save him. Bob cries out to God and repents in weeping and in tears. After witnessing too many in prison Bob died 6 months later.
Traditional Christianity is teaching that Mary will spend eternity in torments, and Bob will spend eternity in bliss.
That my friend would not be considered a just God no matter how you cut it. IMHO.
Some may laugh at this. But many accuse Trinitarians of holding onto the RCC's doctrine of the Trinity, yet they themselves hold onto many doctrines of the RCC themselves.
Death, burial and resurection, eternal damnation, pre-existence, virgin birth, infallibility of the scriptures, Trinity, etc, etc. are all RCC doctrines, but does believing in them make you a part of the whore?
WJ
Hi WJ,
We do not build doctrine on logic.
We do not know the full extent of God's mercy.
God does not produce automatons but reveals his offer to men.
That offer is salvation through Jesus Christ and the possibility of mercy.
Who says God's mercy will not extent to all who have not chosen another god?
Ignorance of the gospel may apply to those at the wedding feast from the highways and byways
We should also not make vast assumptions about God's actions in matters in which little detail is supplied.
Neither should we make and teach assumptions based on the revealed nature of God because as God the final decisions rest with HIMAmen worshippingJesus,
It does my heart good to see that you have the courage to look beyond
some of the dogma of Christian teachings.Tim
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2008,03:35) Quote (gollamudi @ July 15 2008,03:43) Yes Shania,
I do agree with all those verses you just quoted above. We abide in Jesus by the love of God and under the guidence of the Holy Spirit. Certainly we bear fruits but again we are caused by the Spirit of God to do all that, I don't see any free will here the will I have is the result caused by the Spirit of God. This is what our brother Gene, Chosenone and myself are arguing here. We never denied that we don't have any will of our own, we do have our own will otherwise I am not what I am. But every thing in this world works because of cause and effects as we quote repeatedly. We are choosing some thing which is caused by somebody or some thing. We don't have a free will like God who is not influenced by anybody or anything, He does every thing by the cousel of His own will. This is not given to us we only have a limited will which is influenced by the same God to fulfill His purpose to be fruitful in our Christian lives.
May God bless you
Adam
Adam………right on , God is very capable of guiding our hears and minds into His WILL. You have it right God's spirit is guiding you or you would not have understood it.Love and peace to you and yours…….gene
Thank you very much brother Gene.
May God continue to to guide to accept His will on us not by our own selfish wills by which we will certainly fail miserably.
Peace to you
AdamDK,
Why do you give the literal quote of a verse like,Quote 8in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; 9who shall suffer justice — destruction age-during — from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
And then completely change the phrase “age-during” to ever lasting.
Then you give the definition of everlasting as if that is what scriptures said to begin with.Quote everlasting (aiÎwñniov)- without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlastingdestruction (oàleqrov)- from a primary ollumi meaning to destroy, a prolonged form. ruin, destroy, death
So lets put it all together…
“Everlasting” is something without beginning (Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2), without beginning or end (Genesis 21:33; Isaiah 26:4; 40:28; Hebrews 9:14), and without end (2 Corinthians 5:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:16; 1 Timothy 6:16; Hebrews 9:12; 13:20; Revelations 14:6).
The use of “everlasting” here shows that God’s judgment is final with no appeal (Hebrews 6:2) and is “unquenchable” (Mark 9:43). This is not remedial but retributive justice. It is not temporary but final judgment. It is of unlimited duration of time–eternal, as God’s eternal power and divine nature are “everlasting” (Romans 1:20; 16:26).
Do you just change the words to fit your doctrine?
Age-during means exactly what it says. During an age or period of time.
Not without beginning and without end as you say.Tim
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