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Quote (Shania @ June 20 2008,14:23) What I have understood from Chosenone is that we are not under repentance anymore- under grace. I disagree with this because we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is belief. If we believe Him, we will obey His teaching. We will come out of sin and walk in HIs ways. We will walk in the light. This includes repentance. Repentance means to “turn back.” It is like doing a 180 degree turn from the life that you once lived. You have to repent to walk with Him.
shana…………> you quoted, we are saved by grace through faith,but you left off < and that not of yourself, well now if were saved by something that is not of our selfs then who was it from then, was it not God. So we can conclude that God saves us and gives us the faith and Grace both. Then it a work of God right. Sounds more like universal salvation to me. God save who ever He chooses to and He has concluded (all) under sin that He might have Mercy on (ALL).
What do you do with this Paul said I labored more then all, (YET) not I, but the (GRACE) which was with me .
what is GRACE…> definition….> (divine influence on the Heart)
If only you people could understand salvation is a work of God. And has nothing to do with your own free wills.
Nick………it is universal salvation and i am sorry you can't stand the idea that God loves everyone and will ultimately save all his creation. He has the power to change the Hearts and minds of everyone he chooses to, or do you doubt that. If you understood the absolute sovereignty of God it would be no problem to see it. But i know you cant see that and its not your fault it just hasn't been given to you. You believe in a God who isn't really love because He is going to burn up most all of the human race he created to see how big a fire he can make with his own created children.
I'll take the God I have learned about over my many years, the God of True Love and mercy who will eventually save all His creation and deliver them from the (BOND) of corruption, a God of limitless compassion and Loving Kindness a God who has forgiven my sins over and over and over on my life and like King David said, blessed is the man whom the Lord will not impute sin, whose iniquities He has covered, that the God I Love and Know. And I believe He will ultimately have that Mercy on All.
gene
Hi Gene.
I enjoy reading your posts, you seem to have a good understanding of what scripture says. May I add my bit regarding “free will”, see Ro.8:28-31 28 Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose
29 that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.
30 Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also.
31 What then, shall we declare to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?Also Ro.9:17-18. 17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that “For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth.”
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.Again Ro.9:20-22 20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, “Why do you make me thus?”
21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?You see “All is of God” Ro.11:36. 36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!
Scripture is so clear that God is in complete control, “He is operating ALL according to the councel of HIS will” (EPh.1:11).
Blessings.
Chosenone ……..Amen brother. Our God is in absolute Control of All His creation. And the calling of God is without revocation, and again, He who started a work in you will see it unto completion. It really is precious to understand that, it gives great Peace. But many do not want God to be Sovereign in their lives, they want to be instead of Him. So they never put their (Will's) to death because they think their own Free Will Choices is whats saving them.
Peace to you and yours…………gene
Nick……..you taking on the accuser again , you shouldn't be so jealous of other who agree, your sarcasm is only a sign of what really inside you, you simply don't understand the scriptures we quote you because your polarized mind is preventing it. You say all kind of things about us and others as our opinions were not scriptural and etc, but I noticed when we quote scripture you never commit on them but just change subject matter to avoid dealing with them and all the time accusing us and others of not having scriptural support.
I think you are a major reason most topics never go no where Here because you just stall them down and change subject matter so much. When other present scripture you should at least acknowledge them. One time i gave you 10 or 12 direct scriptures on Jesus saying the words He was speaking were not His, and you just ignored it and started on something else. To me people that do that are not really trying to get at the truth about nothing, they think they all ready have the total truth. You need to examine yourself Nick.
IMO………gene
Hi Gene,
Yes, we are saved by grace [favor]. This is not of ourselves. This is a gift. It was His favor on us:
Rom 5:6-8
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
NIVThis is the grace [favor]. However, we are saved by grace[favor] THROUGH faith[belief]. You must have faith[belief]. The Israelites were YHWH's chosen. He had favor on them and brought them out of Egypt. However, that generation never entered the promised land. Why? Unbelief. Unfaithfulness.
Faith [belief] is obedience. It is saying, “I believe you and I will obey your commands. I will repent and walk in your ways. I will step out to do the things that you ask that may seem impossible to me because I know that you are who you say you are and will do what you say you will do. I will obey you because I love you. I will praise you because you are worth it….”
Faith is not some mystical power. It is simple trust and confidence, which results in obedience.
Eph 2:7-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
NIVWhat does verse 10 say? We are created in Messiah to do good works, which were prepared in advance. You see, this is the purpose of our salvation. We are His workmanship. We are created for His pleasure. He is not here for us, we are here for Him. We are here to serve and to love Him with everything we've got, and yes, it always has to be HIS way. Why? Because He is perfect and it is His favor and His mercy to call us to be like Him. This is not something that we deserve. This was granted to us, unmerited. But we are in a covenant and it goes both ways. [just like a marriage].
If salvation were automatically granted and never revoked, why does Paul “work out” his salvation with “fear and trembling”
?James 2:14-15
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
NIV“Can such faith save him?” If God grants the grace and grants the faith, did God grant malfunctioning faith?… does He give us a broken tool that can't save us? Absolutely not! How then, if faith was something that was just granted to us for our salvation, could someone have incomplete faith?
The truth is, faith is a decision just like love is a decision. It is not an emotion or an overwhelming feeling or a mystical power. It is a decision to be faithful. To be true to your vow. Salvation is a covenant relationship. That covenant can be broken, and we are warned to not lose our first love and to not be unfaithful and to not grieve the Holy Spirit with our disobedience….
Eph 5:4-10
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person — such a man is an idolater — has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord.
NIVRev 3:14-17
15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm — neither hot nor cold — I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
NIVRev 2:4-6
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love . 5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
NIVHeb 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
NIVSalvation can be lost… we are warned.
I know that this is not what many people want to hear. It is a hard teaching, but our Messiah did not always teach what the people wanted to hear. Many people left him on account of a “hard teaching.” [Jn 6:60]
Will we fall on the rock and let it break us or does the rock have to fall on us and pulverize us?
Would perfection and divine love create a system designed to condemn the greater number of humanity past and present? What kind of engineer creates a system with the failure rate that evidently is inherent in humanity, if we take the typical view of salvation as taught by Christianity. These failures then are then sentenced to at best oblivion or at worst an eternity of torment. It is inconceivable that a being capable of such feats that are evident in nature's creation would set up such a flawed system.
Cato…..i totally agree with you on that, what Kind of monster would create billions of creatures call them the works of my hand and then throw 90% of them into a eternal every burning fire to scream out for all eternity in pain and agony, and all the time say He is Love.
Truth is it;s not God at all who's that way, it's the people who portray Him as that kind of beast who are themselves driven with this Evil conceptions of Him.
What Shania does not understand that even the Faith is Given by God Himself to US. She is comparing the old testament people who were purely carnal minded to the New Testament Christians who has a (NEW NATURE) given by God Himself in them, there is a big difference between the old and the new testament people who have God's spirit in them.
Mankind likes to think He is the captain of His own destiny, but History has shown that simply is not true, it's God who is in control of all facets of life and He is not willing that any parish, and with His power He will bring that about.
A God who would take His own creation and eternally destroy it by casting people into a ever burning Lake is Not the God i have come to understand in the Bible, but a God created by a fallen or apostate “Christianity” a monster, they have created and which they themselves will have to answer for some day.
I believe God the Father will save all His creation, Yet as by Fire (intense judgments) but none the less save All.
Quote (Cato @ June 25 2008,23:41) Would perfection and divine love create a system designed to condemn the greater number of humanity past and present? What kind of engineer creates a system with the failure rate that evidently is inherent in humanity, if we take the typical view of salvation as taught by Christianity. These failures then are then sentenced to at best oblivion or at worst an eternity of torment. It is inconceivable that a being capable of such feats that are evident in nature's creation would set up such a flawed system.
Hi ,
Hopeful humanistic logic is of little value in determining the fate of man.
It is written.A rescue package as shown in Paul's letter
written to the remnant SAINTS.Galatians 1:4
who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Colossians 1:13
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
2 Thessalonians 3:2
and that we will be rescued from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith.Nick.
1Cor.15:20-28.20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)Explanation:
20 Christ was not the first one to be roused from the dead. The prophets, and the Lord Himself, recalled some to life before He Himself suffered death. But He is the first One to be made alive beyond the power of death. All the others were roused to die again. He is the First fruit of those who are vivified, and die no more.21 Death's entrance and exit are both through a man. Adam and Christ are the channels, respectively, through which death and resurrection reach all mankind.
22 The words “even as'' mark a close parallel. The universality of death, through Adam, is beyond question. “Thus also” we are told, “in Christ, shall all be vivified.” This will not occur simultaneously but in three distinct classes at widely separated intervals of time. Christ, the First fruit, is already alive at God's right hand. We who are Christ's will be made alive at His presence. This includes His coming to the air for the believers of this economy (lThes.4:16; lCor.l5:52; Phil.3:21) and His coming to Israel before the thousand years. The rest, who are not included in “those who are Christ's,” must wait until the consummation, when death, the last enemy, is abolished. This will not occur until the eons have run their course and Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father. At the great white throne judgment no one is vivified or made alive. Hence it is passed over. Authority and power are still in exercise in the new earth. The throne of the Lamb is there. The consummation must be later, for sovereignty is abolished before death, the last enemy. The consummation is at the close of the eonian times, at the close of the last eon which is presented to our view in the final vision of the Unveiling.
25 The reign of Christ is so beneficent, it brings mankind to such a state of perfection, that all further need of the restraints of government vanishes. Rule implies insubordination, and is unnecessary where there is perfect subjection. Rule is a temporary expedient to cope with evil. When evil is banished rule also retires. The effects of evil for mankind are concentrated in death. When the universe has been purged of all other evil, then death itself becomes inoperative and yields up its victims. Not till then is it true that all are made alive in Christ.27 The universality of Christ's subjection of all under His feet is evident from the one exception—God Himself.
Blessings.
Hi CO,
Yes it is a popular idea.
Sadly based on presumption and not truth.
It is not of faith and what is not of faith is of sin.Best left in the museum of heresies.
Nick.
Another case where you do not believe scripture, (1 Cor.15:20-28) just “Nicks Gospel” where you don't have to use “correctly cut” scripture.Blessings.
Nick….Your gospel is based on presumptions and sadly is not true, what do you call all the scriptures Co posted, His own concoctions, Nick Just admit the truth you have no idea what your talking about. If its not based on the truth then show us the proof the scriptures posted was wrong then, otherwise you haven't a leg to stand on and are only causing confusion and diverting from the truth.
Shania…..Grace means far more then favor it means divine influence in our lives, that divine influence it what transform our mind into a new creation that How God does it Grace is God working force. Remember when Paul said i worked more then all the rest yet not I but the Grace of God worked. Devin influence was doing the work in Paul. Most People do not understand the word Grace and that causes a lot of the confusions.
peace to you………..gene
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