Understanding scripture

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2014,03:15)

Hi MB, You keep becoming confused and putting words into my mouth. Same as you do with God's word adding here and there. Still trying to SEPARATE God from His Spirit and elevate the flesh? I know it bothers you that everyone does not agree with you but hey that is life. Get over it

Nick

it is you that do not agree with the scriptures ,and you cannot see it how would you make anyone else see it with your teaching

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Compare verse with verse.

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2014,12:39)

Hi, Compare verse with verse.

Nick

but as soon you read the second or third verse you forgot the first ,and so have false conclusions,

and it is not by comparing the verses ;because that would include your own mind work,and bias views,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2014,15:15)

Hi MB, You keep becoming confused and putting words into my mouth. Same as you do with God's word adding here and there. Still trying to SEPARATE God from His Spirit and elevate the flesh? I know it bothers you that everyone does not agree with you but hey that is life. Get over it

I will take that latest addition of “Mindless Tripe Spouted By Nick” to mean that you CAN'T refute the things I said about John 14.

This means you are a false teacher who can't even scripturally support the things you claim.

Get back to us when you DO have some scriptural support for the things you preach – or can AT LEAST scripturally refute the things we said that prove your understanding to be wrong.

If you can do neither, then the things you preach are nothing more than the clanging of cymbals.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Empty prattle.
Is that the role of a leader here?

[mikeboll64]

Yes Nick. Pointing out your empty prattle, so others here don't get sucked in by it, is one of my roles as a leader here.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Thy Word is truth should be the basis of scriptural understanding, not one verse analysed with weak logic

[terraricca]

Nick

we can see that in the past two pages you have not mention one single scripture but negate Mike for his presentation with plenty of scriptures in his argument ;

I really do question your knowledge in scriptures understanding

[NickHassan]

Hi MB
“so others here don't get sucked in by it, is one of my roles as a leader here”
Do you have a paternalistic role here?

[mikeboll64]

Nick,

This discussion is about John 12. It seems abundantly clear that since JESUS is the one they wouldn't believe in, JESUS is the one whose glory Isaiah saw, and the one Isaiah spoke about in those prophesies John quoted.

1. They didn't put their trust in JESUS.

2. It was for THIS REASON that Isaiah said “x” and “y”.

See? Nothing at all to do with anyone refusing to believe in the Holy Spirit.

Do you have anything more to say on that subject?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
So did Jesus the man [in your eyes god] have his own throne and set of angels seen in Is 6?
Perhaps you should add supporting verses that confirm this amazing thought.

[mikeboll64]

It is John who attributed what happened in John 12 to words Isaiah wrote in Is 6.  The NT expands on, and explains, the OT, right? 

But Isaiah spoke many things about the coming Messiah throughout his writings.  In 9:6, for instance, Isaiah definitely spoke about Jesus, and his great glory.

And the whole of Isaiah 53 is about Jesus, with the first and last two verses describing a great glory.

So Isaiah clearly “spoke about” Jesus, agreed?

And Isaiah even spoke about the “glory” of Jesus, right?  

So the fact that John says, “Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him” doesn't mean Isaiah literally saw the pre-flesh Jesus in heaven with all his glory, right?

It could be more like us “seeing” the glory of the one with eyes of blazing fire, riding a white horse to victory, with a sword coming out of his mouth, right?

On the other hand, the context of John 12 insists that it was Jesus who Isaiah spoke about, and saw the glory of.  So whether John believed that Isaiah LITERALLY saw that glory, or was merely seeing that glory in his mind's eye due to the prophecy God gave him (the way we can see his glory as he rides the horse), the fact remains that it was Jesus Isaiah spoke about, and saw the glory of.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
THE LORD and LORD OF HOSTS in the OT relates only to God.
So Is 6 1-6 relates to God in His Heavenly Temple.

The one who offered to be sent in verse 7 was the prophet Isaiah.
He was told what to say to the people.

Jn 12 is the fulfillment of that prophecy

BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT THE TRANSLATORS of the NIV and other ADDED the word JESUS to the words of the manuscripts.
Right or wrong the word is simply not in the manuscripts
Do you think it is OK to do this?

[mikeboll64]

1. Whether or not the name is added, it is clear from the context that John was talking about Jesus. (This is most likely WHY so many translations add the name in their versions.)

2. Are you saying that Isaiah DIDN'T speak about Jesus, and that he did NOT see the glory of God's Messiah – even in his own mind's eye?

3. Are you insinuating that Jesus Christ was a re-incarnation of Isaiah?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
So would verses 1-6 of Isaiah 6 where the glory of God was seen
not relate to Jn12.41 where it says he saw that glory?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Did you agree scripture should not be ADDED to?
Rev 22.18

[mikeboll64]

I agree for the most part, Nick. Of course we who speak English have no choice but to add indefinite articles, and sometimes alter the placement of the Hebrew and Greek words so that they can be understood in English.

There are many times where the addition doesn't hurt anything. For example, in 1 Cor 15:27, the Greek words say, “this does not include HE who put everything under him”.

We all know the “HE” is God, right? So is it wrong to translate it as, “this does not include God, who put everything under him”? I wouldn't say that hurts anything, since “God” is clearly implied anyway.

I say the same thing about John 12, since “Christ” is clearly implied as the one Isaiah spoke about.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Good. They should not have ADDED Jesus to jn 12

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Who is the LORD and the LORD OF HOSTS in the oT?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2014,21:29)

Hi MB, So would verses 1-6 of Isaiah 6 where the glory of God was seen not relate to Jn12.41 where it says he saw that glory?

What makes you think the “glory” part was in Isaiah 6? John also quoted Isaiah 53, right?  And in that chapter, Isaiah was allowed to “see” both the suffering and the subsequent glory of this coming Messiah, right?

John was attributing the words of chapter 6 to the people who were hearing Jesus, but not understanding.  

But it was chapter 53 of which John said Isaiah spoke of Jesus, and saw his glory.

Isaiah knew that the one he was speaking about in chapter 53 was “the arm of Jehovah” – which would be a pretty powerful and glorified person.  And Isaiah knew this person was going to have prolonged life, justify many, and receive a great portion from God.

So in that sense, even though Isaiah didn't personally and literally SEE Jesus in any glorified state at the time, he was aware that the one he was writing about was obviously going to be a great servant of Jehovah. And in that sense, Isaiah not only spoke about Jesus, but was also exposed to (saw) the glory Jesus would have.

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