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While were on the subject – there is only one baptism.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.Paul
Hi trettep,
It is a common mistake to read the verse as you have .But compare it with Hebrews 6.1-2
“Therefore leaving aside the elementary teaching about the Christ let us press on to maturity, not layng again a foundation of
repentance from dead works and of faith towards God,
of instructions about WASHINGS
and LAYING ON OF HANDS,
and the resurrection of the dead
and eternal judgement.
And this we will do if God permits”So there are washings and there is not just 'a washing'.
But in the context of ONE church and with the established meaning of baptism as washing without qualification referring to baptism in water
do you agree with Paul that these are the foundation doctrines of the church of God? Or do you say we have moved on, Paul was misguided and your more 'modern' view is now God's plan?2Jn 9″ Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God;the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son”
Quote (trettep @ April 20 2005,18:26) While were on the subject – there is only one baptism. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.Paul
Agian trettep you run into the problem of nonscriptural unnecessary repetition. If the word “baptism “here had meant “baptism in the Spirit ” it would not have already said “one Spirit” would it?Hi,
Jn 12.24
“Truly, Truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone;but if it dies it bears much fruit”So if a grain falls onto dry ground it does not sprout and may be eaten or destroyed by burning up or being trampled on. At least it is necessary for the seed to reach the protection and moisture under the surface of ground to develop into a plant. Water is required for the initiation of growth. Then the remains of the seed form a useless husk that rots away while the plant forms and grows.The seed dies as we die in baptism into Christ.[Rom 6.4]
1 Cor 3.5
” What then is Apollos? and what is Paul? Servants thriough whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
I planted. Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth”
God sends the rain of teaching in the Spirit.
Hebrews 6.7
“For ground that drinks in the rain which falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God”A point to consider
There is a record in Acts of people receiving the Holy Spirit before baptism
Does this mean that water baptism is redundant?
Hardly – they were immediately baptized.
Does it say some were baptised others not?
No – all – without exception or disagreement or complaint were baptised.
Proving that it was a genuine outpouring of the Holy Spirit that they had received,
for how could the Spirit of the Word contradict or be in disobedience to the Word?…Yes Malcolm,
The Spirit in Peter recognised the same one Spirit had been poured out
Acts 10.46
“For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God..”In light of the old baptism pointing to the new, consider these verses:
Hebrews 7:18-19
(18) The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
(19) (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.How was the Mosaic Law “weak and useless”? Only in the sense that it could not “cleanse the conscience” even of one who adhered to it. In regard to their outward behavior of keeping the commandments, the Pharisees looked good. They appeared to be very righteous, but their hearts were far from God. They were not cleansed inwardly, and that is why Jesus likened them to “whited sepulchres.” Remember that the Law was given “so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful” (Rom. 7:13). It was to make people realize their need for a Savior from the sin that dwells within them (Rom. 7:18) and point them to the coming Messiah. Hebrews 9:6-8 talks about the High Priest entering the Holy of Holies once a year with a blood sacrifice for the sins of the people and himself, and that this pointed to a greater High Priest and a greater Holy Place. Then come these monumentally significant verses:
Hebrews 9:9-10
(9) This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and the sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshipper.
(10) They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings [baptismos]—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.Remember that the word “baptism” means “to dip” or “to immerse,” and does not in any way indicate the substance or element into which something is immersed. In reality, the word “baptism” is not a translation, but a transliteration into English of the Greek words baptismos (noun) and baptizo (verb). Look again at verse 10 above!!! It clearly says that the “external regulations” like water baptism applied only until the time of a new order!!! When did that “new order” begin? When Jesus Christ made available an internal cleansing by his virgin birth, sinless life, death, resurrection, ascension, and giving of holy spirit on the Day of Pentecost.
Hebrews 9:11-13 talks about Christ as the high priest entering once and for all into the heavenly “Holy of Holies” by his own blood. Then comes this fabulous verse:
Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!Why do we want to have a cleansed conscience? Why do we want this internal cleansing? So that we may serve the living God. Amen. There is more in God’s Word confirming that water baptism was a symbolic forerunner to a greater reality. 1 Peter 3:18-20a talks about Christ’s death, his resurrection, and his subsequent declaration of that victory over death to the evil spirits who had corrupted mankind in the days of Noah and who had therefore been incarcerated. Then we read:
1 Peter 3:20-21
(20) who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
(21) and this water symbolizes baptism [an immersion] that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…Note carefully that the Word of God very specifically says that the baptism that now saves you is not water baptism, but rather something that touches you on the inside, even your conscience. That was made possible by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and his subsequent ascension and exaltation as Lord, which made him the baptizer with holy spirit. It is interesting that the water of Noah’s flood did two things: it destroyed all the wicked people and it saved all the good people. So, our immersion into Christ via holy spirit both killed the old man, figuratively speaking, and gave us new life.
After all, Jesus baptism was not of water but of holy spirit and fire. They were to receive power from on High… This was stated by John, Jesus and the disciples. We are baptised into the name of Jesus. So into all that Jesus is, not into water that was OT.
Luke 3:16
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But [in contrast] one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will [baptize] you with the Holy Spirit [no article “the”: holy spirit] and with fire.”Acts 1:4-5
(4) On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about [see Luke 24:49]. (5) For John baptized with water, but [in contrast] in a few days you will be baptized with holy spirit.”the Holy Ghost – can anyone tell me why they translate the word 4151 as “the” in this verse… it is pneuma according to my strongs concordence?
What does external washing do for us and where does it say that baptism into Christ’s death is specifically to do with water baptism as per say. You can allude to it for sure but so can you allude to the Trinity doctrine, as many people do, by this same method… and does not mean they are right – however it is never directly stated as far as I know.
So, is there a clear statement that baptism is baptism into water as you state if so please show me.
Water baptism, was specific to John, I baptise you with water, but
Spirit baptism was specific to Jesus – that is in the gift of holy spirit and fire.Hi A7,
You must see that saying it is not water baptism from 1Peter 3 is not according to what is written there but the additional words you have added to explain it from your point of view.To my mind the verse explains why the external symbol of water baptism demanded by God is not a washing of our body such as we would no to remove muck and grime but has deeper symbolic meaning.
We have a work manual to show us the path to walk on. The book of Acts details the initial obedient work of the disciples who sat and learned at the feet of the Master. I think there are 15 or more examples of water baptism done and spoken of in response to repentance and faith in the Son of God. Even those who had first received the baptism in the Spirit were also commanded to be baptised in water by Peter in Acts 10.
There is no mention anywhere in the books of the bible that water baptism was to be phased out at the death of Jesus. Water baptism continued at the hands of the disciples and apostles including Paul.
It says nowhere in the bible either that later than this water baptism was unnecessary but the command of God expressed by Jesus in Jn 3 continues to be in force despite how strange it may appear to our modern ears.
Like Naaman the Syrian our first response is to turn away but the healing for his leprosy was only received by obedience to the Godly command from Elsiha that he bathe in the water.
Paul found some followers in Acts 19 that had only been baptised by the baptism of John, which was a water baptism. Paul then baptised them in water in the name of Jesus[v5] and then laid hands on them for the baptism in the Holy Spirit[v6].
None of these baptisms were unnecessary, Johns' baptism of repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus or baptism in the Holy Spirit.
The necessity for the baptism of John is well shown in Lk 7.30
“But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptised by John”Phillip spent time with the eunuch explaining salavtion starting with the book of Isaiah. What he said to the eunuch is not recorded but what is recorded is the response to the eunuch. He said in Acts 8.36f
” Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptised?”
And he is taken immediately on confession of faith in the Son of God and baptised in water.We are also told that” after they came up from the water the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away.”
There is no mention of the eunuch being baptised in the Spirit and there is no mention of Philip ever being used in this way. That would uggest to me that water baptism was the primary essential baptism.
It is shown also that the apostles later baptised new christians in the Spirit [Acts 8 14f] showing that it too was essential but later would be appropriate as also Lk 11 shows it can be received by prayer as well.
But water baptism in Acts is shown to be immediately necessary im all the examples in Acts and when Paul found it had not been done in Acts 19 he did so there and then.
Indeed Jesus is the one who brought baptism in the Spirit, a new baptism in his Spirit given after his death that John spoke of. He did not say that it replaced water baptism but he said we must be born again of water AND the Spirit.
Hi,
There is no record of the disciples of Jesus being baptised in water.
were they?
Acts 2.38
“…Repent, and each of you be baptrised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins..”Baptism then encompasses the forgiveness of our sins by God.
If you look at the washing of the feet in Jn 13 , the washing, as usual, symbolised forgiveness. In this case it was forgiveness of one another as he told them to do as he had done for them for each other.
He also said to them
“He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you”Such a reference I believe to be concerning our daily need, after baptism, to seek forgiveness from God, as he also told us in the 'Our Father' prayer.
Even after a bath if we were to wander the dusty streets of Jerusalem we would have dirty feet again by the end of the day. We also, though we are not of the world, have to live in the dirty world and come in contact with, and often cannot help being affected by, sin situations every day, and we need to be kept in the love of the God who cannot abide such filth.
Jesus also said of Judas that he was not clean.
Is this statement that they were clean a reference to their baptism by him or John? I would think so. It would seem surprising if they were not the first to line up and repent.
Buit there is also the washing by the word.
Jn 15.3
” You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.”Eph 5 25f
” Husbands love your wives , just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her so that he might sanctify her , having cleansed her by the washing with the word, that he might present top himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless”Again being made clean and guiltfree is the product but it does not substitute for the baptism in water into the death of Christ[Rom 6], the going through the gate of Christ and entering the body of Christ.
“Seek ye first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added to you”Hey Nick,
So what purpose has Baptism got to do in our lives to you…
Is it a command that we should follow, a submission thing or is it actually something that saves us. Is it a symbolic action to show that Jesus is Lord of out lives or an actual necessity to the salvation process?
Just trying to understand how it has anything to do with our salvation… which by faith… having to do this becomes a work, something you have to do if it is a requirement.
I have a few more questions but I need to do some study…
Have a good week, and God bless
Hi Nick and everyone,
All I can say is that when I was baptized I received the Holy Spirit. I gave testimony somewhere in this forum.
Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Based on my experience I would have to say that You should be baptized. We have to use common sense the thief on the cross couldn't jump off the cross and be baptized so he was an exception. May be he was already baptised by John. If you are sincere why wouldn't you want to,be baptised.Hey Kenrch,
Common sense says a principle must apply to all in the same manner unless stated or you create loop holes of justice. If it does not then where do you draw a line, and how far can you dodge or stretch that principle. This just proves that salvation is without baptism.
What if someone was thinking about coming to Christ, his thoughts were changing and he wanted to accept him, however, on the way to meeting Jesus he died before he could do this act. He never asked him for forgiveness, was never baptized but knew Jesus to be a good man and that he should not have to die for his sin and wanted to know Jesus in his kingdom… he had told others of what he had heard of the Christ and also rebuked them for saying harsh words about him. Yet He had not met the man Jesus and died, what would you suggest would happen to him… could i stretch it further… and say well his intentions saved him.
This thief on the cross, did not even repent – his tone is somewhat “sorry” but I see no repentance, well if he did we are not told. He simply stated that Jesus was not worthy as they were of the punishment they received. He also rebuked the other thief for not having a fear of God, then he turned to Jesus and said to him, remember me when you come in your kingdom… and Jesus said sure thang…
That is what happened here. No repentance, no believer's prayer, no alter call, but rather a statement… this man is not guilty as we are, fear God and remember me Jesus when you come into your kingdom.
Kenrch, if it is just a symbolic act of obedience and submission then I can understand what you are saying – but if it is necessary for salvation as some believe then the thief got through the net in a way others will not… how can that be justice, and righteous justice at that. It can be justice if baptism is simply not essential to the work of salvation. Then this thief got in by the same way we all do, belief in the messiah and his message.
I agree that water baptism (WB) is good symbolically, but I just don't agree that is essential for salvation. It is something I have done personally, and I did it to show that I was serious about my life in Christ based on what i had been taught. I did not get baptised in the HS at this time like in your case. That happened two years later. However, in my case, it was HS baptism that drastically changed my life and not water baptism – however, WB did have meaning to me, surrender to Jesus. Water baptism is a sign of my commitment to Christ but it does not save me. I was saved four years earlier when I accepted Christ and his word into my life – and would have had life eternal if i had died within those 4 years.
It is belief and obedience to the Christ and his word that saves me. Not the outward act of Baptism.
Quote (Artizan007 @ May 07 2006,12:07) Hey Nick, So what purpose has Baptism got to do in our lives to you…
Is it a command that we should follow, a submission thing or is it actually something that saves us. Is it a symbolic action to show that Jesus is Lord of out lives or an actual necessity to the salvation process?
Just trying to understand how it has anything to do with our salvation… which by faith… having to do this becomes a work, something you have to do if it is a requirement.
I have a few more questions but I need to do some study…
Have a good week, and God bless
Hi A7,
We folow Jesus. He is the way. He was baptised in water and the Spirit.This is the way that those who wish to be in the first resurrection into the millenial reign as kings and priests must follow. It was spoken by Peter in Acts 2.38f and has never changed. It is not works by the person submitting to baptism but is a good work done in Christ doing the baptising.
God requires it of us as obedience so in that way it saves us to obey God as 1 Peter 3 shows. Paul. Peter and Philip made sure all who heard the message and responded with belief in the Son of God were immediately baptised in water. They had sat at the feet of the Master and knew that true belief was confirmed by obedience to the command of God.
God will save other through the later resurrection and the judgement of the sheep and goats shown in Matt 25. That is for those who have helped the kingdom only. They have done so by good works to christian brothers of Jesus. But they will be unaware they should be saved. That is not what you want, to be unsure and hoping for the unexpected mercy of God because the way is so simple.
Quote (kenrch @ May 07 2006,14:22) Hi Nick and everyone, All I can say is that when I was baptized I received the Holy Spirit. I gave testimony somewhere in this forum.
Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Based on my experience I would have to say that You should be baptized. We have to use common sense the thief on the cross couldn't jump off the cross and be baptized so he was an exception. May be he was already baptised by John. If you are sincere why wouldn't you want to,be baptised.
Hi Kenrch,
Christ had not yet died so he could not be baptised into his death. So he was still under the old covenant and his faith was judged sufficient for his salvation.Hi Cubes,
You wrote:Quote Point of Acts 10 is that God was ready to pour out his spirit on the righteous Gentiles of whom Cornelius was already found approved in God's sight. If anything, Acts 10 refutes your stance. Cornelius and his house along with his buddies had the Holy Spirit poured out on them. Would God pour his holy spirit into unclean vessels? He already told Peter in the vision that they were clean, speaking of believing Gentiles in general but specifically also of Cornelius and his house.
Repentence was not even mentioned for they were already God fearing. All that was left for them to do was to believe that Jesus is the son of God which they did readily and so the Holy Spirit was poured out upon them …followed by water baptism.
I find it very curious that the Holy Spirit had filled the gentiles in Acts 10:44-48 and they “spoke in tongues” and were “exalting God” BEFORE they were water baptised. Can unsaved men do this? Can it happan that the Holy Spirit can temporarily indwell us, only to depart again? As I understand it He will never leave us:John 14:16-17
16″I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.There is also this passage:
Acts 8:12-17
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.These men HAD been water baptised but were as yet UNSAVED, in that they didn't have the Holy Spirit. There are a number of NT passages that make it clear that having the Spirit is actually what saves us. If you have the Spirit of God, you BELONG to Him:
Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not HisAnd if you have the Holy Spirit you are “sealed in Him””
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, Christ, you also after listening to the message of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. (cf. Eph 4:30)Sealed: From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: – (set a, set to) seal up, stop.
So where does this leave water baptism? I think Artizan007 has raised some interesting points. Obviously it's important, but is it important UNTO salvation?
What are your thought Cubes?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2006,05:10) Hi Cubes,
You wrote:Quote Point of Acts 10 is that God was ready to pour out his spirit on the righteous Gentiles of whom Cornelius was already found approved in God's sight. If anything, Acts 10 refutes your stance. Cornelius and his house along with his buddies had the Holy Spirit poured out on them. Would God pour his holy spirit into unclean vessels? He already told Peter in the vision that they were clean, speaking of believing Gentiles in general but specifically also of Cornelius and his house.
Repentence was not even mentioned for they were already God fearing. All that was left for them to do was to believe that Jesus is the son of God which they did readily and so the Holy Spirit was poured out upon them …followed by water baptism.
I find it very curious that the Holy Spirit had filled the gentiles in Acts 10:44-48 and they “spoke in tongues” and were “exalting God” BEFORE they were water baptised. Can unsaved men do this? Can it happan that the Holy Spirit can temporarily indwell us, only to depart again? As I understand it He will never leave us:John 14:16-17
16″I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.There is also this passage:
Acts 8:12-17
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.These men HAD been water baptised but were as yet UNSAVED, in that they didn't have the Holy Spirit. There are a number of NT passages that make it clear that having the Spirit is actually what saves us. If you have the Spirit of God, you BELONG to Him:
Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not HisAnd if you have the Holy Spirit you are “sealed in Him””
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, Christ, you also after listening to the message of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. (cf. Eph 4:30)Sealed: From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: – (set a, set to) seal up, stop.
So where does this leave water baptism? I think Artizan007 has raised some interesting points. Obviously it's important, but is it important UNTO salvation?
What are your thought Cubes?
Hi Is 1.18,
What scriptural evidence is there that the Spirit left them?God is God. He can do what he likes with His own Spirit. He does not have to follow rules and can make exceptions whereever He likes.
But that same Spirit in Peter recognised that they should also be baptised in water even if the normal order had this time been reversed by God.
God showed that He considered the vessels of the listeners already were clean enough to be filled with the Spirit.
“What scriptural evidence is there that the Spirit left them?”
None. That's my point. These men, in Acts 10:44-44 had the Holy Spirit in them BEFORE being baptised. They must have already been saved. If any one of them had died before being water baptised, what would have become of that person??
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2006,05:37) “What scriptural evidence is there that the Spirit left them?” None. That's my point. These men, in Acts 10:44-44 had the Holy Spirit in them BEFORE being baptised. They must have already been saved. If any one of them had died before being water baptised, what would have become of that person??
Hi Is 1.18,
What was time time difference between their being born of the Spirt and water baptism? Minutes only.If God chose to reverse the order we can be sure that He had all things in hand and was preserving them till all righteousness was fulfilled.
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